GEL, I am 47 years old. I don’t feel I have a chip on my shoulder about feminism. My mother does not believe in feminism at all. My sore spot comes from control issues with women (my mom). Since beginning marriage counseling, I have come to realize just how little I stand up for myself against both my mother and my wife, both of whom have personalities every bit as strong as you and HP, if not stronger. It has occurred to me that this feminism trend is simply an institutionalized, or maybe traditionalized, pattern of the same dynamic.
I understand that this male depression situation puts the wife in a catch 22 situation. I do not know the answer top break out of this. But I feel men are in the same Catch 22 with their wives. It is not less frustrating for us to figure how to address this, so in some ways, I can say welcome to our world.
HP, Let me apologize for calling you a “spoiled princess” on the other thread. I don’t mean to be insulting. But step back for a second and take a look at how you are coming at me. I know you are upset, that you feel fully justified in how you feel, that I somehow attacked you and you are simply responding in kind. But the tone of your response is as strong as some of my responses. I know that when I respond in that way, I am reacting because of my own issues. I think you are doing the same.
And like so many have stated on this board, if you react this in cyberspace, then you likely react like this in person. Whether justified or not, most men do not like to be attacked like this. And I suspect your husband is well aware of this fact and does a certain amount of walking on eggshells to avoid this. I did the same with my wife, until I learned to stand up for myself in counseling. This had the affect of making our arguments REALLY bad. She had NO intention of giving up the power and control she always enjoyed (though she did not see this) and I had no intention of backing down to her any more.
But before all this started, I felt I was always giving in. At some point I would have enough, get really angry and blow up. I never thought I was doing the controlling, that I was only occasionally having to defend myself. On the other hand, I think she saw me as someone with an uncontrollable temper, who would explode for no reason, and she was walking on eggshells, not knowing when I would explode.
So when you say your husband used to blow up over the house being messy, I don’t think he will recall those times as a period when he had everything under control. I suspect he will think he has been doing everything he could to support he family and you showed no appreciation for his efforts by letting the house get messy. I don’t even want to address whether his perspective is right or wrong, because it does not matter. All you need to understand is that is how he saw things (assuming I am correct) and that is what accounted for his anger.
Now you are wondering what you can do to “fix” things. As GEL says, you are in a catch 22. You feel every right to speak your feelings, and for him to hear and acknowledge you. But you justification of this “right” is based on the female perspective, because these things are important to women.
If your husband does not have any friends, makes you the center of his relations, is a people pleaser within his family, then my guess is he is VERY insecure and has VERY low self esteem (you may want to find out what in his FOO makes this so). I also suspect there could be some shame-based interaction in his family that affects him. This could mean he feels responsible for the feelings of everyone else, but not himself – obviously a dangerous situation. Couple this with the male value system of needing to appear strong, independent and not mired in feelings, and he has a MAJOR contradiction to deal with.
I’m not going to try and tell you or GEL how to fix this situation, that requires a counselor. But I am trying to explain that is situation might exist, though I don’t know for sure in your specific cases, after all, I am hypothesizing. This is a frustrating situation, I know, but if there is any validity to my suspicions, then I think my theory is important for you to understand.
One last note - I am not saying that women should not express their feelings. I am saying that they should not have expectations that the man must react to those expressions in the way a women would. Some men will do so, others don’t. Just as some women will understand the importance of sex to a man, others won’t. I think it is more productive for you, the woman, to better understand why your husband thinks as he does, and understand what he is willing to do in his response. The difference in what you expect to receive from him and what he intends to deliver is the source of your disappointment. He can change what he delivers and you can change what you expect.
Nicegal,
It sounds to me like your are saying the same thing too.
