No, OT, that was not harsh, or at least I didn't take it that way...here goes the breakdown...
Quote: She came toward you at that point. Unfortunately, you immediately closed the gap. You once again clearly entered and stayed in the R far more than she is.
I suppose you are right. To clarify that, she has been constantly moving "towards" me for about 2 weeks now. I have not changed anything that I have been doing since starting DB.
Quote: For her to have the space she needs to gain clarity, you must step away from the R. You should not be in the R more than she is. You are dreaming of romantic interludes in Ireland. Your actions show her that she has you back in line and is giving you enough to keep you there. Sounds to me like a Just in Case scenario.
Yes, the just in case scenario is one that I am afraid of. Am I dreaming of romantic interludes, you bet I am. Am I expecting them, hell no. As for being in the R more than she is, I admit that I probably am. I don't know what more to do to pull back more. Sure, I am responding to her opening up to me, and I guess that's wrong, but it is a judgment call for me to make and I have made it. If it costs me my marriage, then so be it, but from the beginning I decided I never wanted to regret this process. If I did not explore where she is right now, I would regret that. I am prepared for the setback if it happens...or at least as much as can be. Your advice is well heard and I will seriously consider it.
Quote: She knows what is going on must end, viz, her leading a torturous existence. But, she has not said what she thinks the solution is.
Actually, she has. She said she knows her affair must end. She said that from the beginning. She has always maintained that a divorce was NOT what SHE wanted but she was confused as to where to go from here. She has never insinuated or said she wanted a separation. Of course, minds change, but to this point she has been consistent that she wants our M to survive this.
Quote: I believe you mentioned she began sleeping in clothes. This is a HUGE denial of intimacy.
Um, no, the complete opposite. She has always slept in long pants PJ's and recently she started sleeping in a t-shirt and panties. VERY unusual for her. She is very body conscious, especially when it comes to her legs. For her to not be wearing pants anytime is a big deal. This was one of the things that she did that signaled something may be changing with her.
Quote: She feels no pain of losing you right now because she hasn't. Your presence remains strong, she is sure of it. It is probably even somewhat cloying and oppressive to her. She cannot get a true sense of her own feelings with you remaining in an R that she has left.
Ok, again, I agree. I have not left. I guess we have to agree to disagree here because I don't know how I "leave" a R that involves 2 small boys. Most of our interaction centers around them and anything else is gravy. One thing I think it is important you know is that my communication with my W has never been that good, especially when it comes to heavy issues, or personal discussions. Lately, we have been able to talk with ease, about anything. This is a HUGE shift in our R, as friends or otherwise. She's noticed that too. It's what I meant when I said that I wondered if the changes in our R and me would be enough for my W. There is SO much that is better about things now that should they continue like this, could turn the tide. You say I need to leave the R now, and distance myself. I personally think this would be a huge mistake. This is a time when we are connecting more than ever before and for me to pull away and start playing that game right now would not be productive. What do I have to lose by deepening my friendship with my W. Isn't that one of the main principals of DB?
Quote: Back off. Quit dreaming. Live your own freaking life. If you are into the R far enough that it matters what she is doing with OM, then you are too far into the R. Why? Because you don't have a partner that is participating in an R in which clear monogamy, emotional and physical, is a requirement. You need to move yourself into that R and step out of the old R. I am in NO WAY encouraging you to have an A of any sort. But, you are in an R in which you are basically dating someone who is unwilling to commit AND unwilling to be honest with you about the other parts of her life. This will NOT change until she gains clarity. She will NOT gain clarity with you on top of her mooning over her.
Ok, and another way to say "GAL" and distance myself. See above. With my kids in the picture, and all the outside work I am already doing above and beyond the 40 hours I put in at the day job these days, I AM NOT going to be gone anymore. Sorry. If my W wants to leave me because I want to spend time with my kids, then she can go. I am doing the best I can considering the circumstances.
Quote: Get excited doing research on what YOU will be doing in Ireland. Look at special things that you will put on the agenda. You are going as part of a travel group and you have a roommate.
Done. I have TONS of things I want to do, and since I will be driving... Also, I am not going as part of a group. I will admit to the W being not much more than a roommate. Sad but true.
Quote: Trust me, it is unattractive AND unempowering to deceive yourself by staying in an R that is not present. You can't tell what YOU want. She can't tell what SHE wants.
I don't think my M exists in any way the same as before. My kids are the only physical reminders of it. I look at it more as, as you said, dating in a way. I have never really tried to woo my W. From day one I just laid expectations on her and for 8 years, she tried to live up to them. I never really tried to entice her into affection, I just sort of demanded it by my manipulation. I realized that and now I am just trying to be a normal man who is attracted to a woman. NONE of my actions these days are "more of the same" from me.
Quote: Also, quit feeling so ENTITLED to having your W back fully. Quit waiting for her to GET OVER her stupid fling and fall all over you. Whatever drove her to the affair is still there. Her pain in your R from both your actions severed that R. It is over. She can choose to reenter into a new husband-wife R with you OR NOT. It is her free choice. She is not abusing you by taking time to decide whether or not to do so.
First of all, my W will never "fall all over me". It's not in her nature. I don't suspect she is doing it with this other guy and I know from her past R's that she didn't do it with them either. If she did do that, it would be a huge 180, one that I think would be totally counter to her personality. She does not pursue. She is pursued. As for the thing(s) that "caused" the A in the first place still being there, yes, maybe, and maybe not. That's up to her to decide. I know that right away, through counseling and introspection, I discovered some really ugly traits I had that my W even told me contributed in LARGE part to our downfall. I think even she would tell you that those are greatly diminished now. Sure, I have a LONG way to go, but I am not one of those who doesn't know why his W left and marriage is in terrible shape. My issues permeated every facet of my life, my kids, work, marriage, everything. It is clear when you observe things now that things are MUCH different. Whether that is something that contributes to a new marriage forming, I don't know. As for being entitled to having my W back fully, I won't say I don't feel that way if I am being honest. Sorry. Slap taken and rolled with.
Quote: You, though, are abusing yourself by putting yourself in the role of victim in an R that no longer exists waiting for what you think is rightfully yours to be returned.
Ok, I'll accept this. I do suppose I am waiting for what's "mine" to return. I need to change this idea. Point taken.
Quote: STEP AWAY FROM THE R FURTHER THAN SHE HAS. IF YOU REAPPROACH HER, DO SO AT A FAR SLOWER RATE THAN SHE APPROACHES YOU. You BOTH need to be VERY CLEAR that any rebuilding of an R at this point is because SHE WANTS TO and does so freely.
If you don't think that will work for you, then find something else that does, but which does not involve mooning by yourself sitting squarely in an ex-R.
Again, because of the dramatically changed dynamic in my R, I don't consider it in any way the ex-R. This is something entirely new. The level of communication we have, and HER encouragement of that communication (she used to basically suggest that I go upstairs after the kids went to bed). She now enjoys my company (now that I am not a whiney b!tch, obsessing over everything and constantly trying to prove I am right).
Are we on the verge of a full fledged resurgence of romance? Who the hell knows. Are we working towards a stronger friendship, yes, this is for sure. Do I still care about her being with the OM? You bet, and so long as I am married, I retain that right. You can shout me down, hang me, do whatever, but I will be damned if I stop CARING if she is with another man. Now, what I DO in reaction to it is another story altogether.
Thank you for your post. You challenge me. I am not sure I answered the challenge well in all cases, but I tried best I could.
Oh, and BTW, I have a C session this afternoon so your post came at a great time OT, now I can go take an hour to heal from the pain and suffering...lol
Quote: If you can really step away from the old-R as much as she has and give her real freedom, it might not take her that long to get it -- the it being that she really does love you and wants to spend her life with you (hopefully, NO guarantees). How long did it take you to get it when you got the bomb????
By "get it" do you mean to stop groveling and let her have the space? One day. I wrote a letter the morning after that laid out my feelings (and it wasn't that bad, I read it recently). From there, I found DB the next day and I have been "giving her space" ever since with varying degrees of success. This is why I am looking hard at HER changes towards me. Are they "keeping me around" or are they genuine reactions to the month long changes she's seen in me that are really fundamental. I WAS an obsessive, controlling, always right, slightly overweight, out of shape, insecure, slightly slobbish man. Over the past month I have learned to validate, thought stop, lost the need to always be right, listen, lost 20 pounds, taken up running, regained my self esteem (as much as possible anyway), bought tons of new clothes, and most of all, adopted a PMA around the house that has been missing for several years now! Sure, does a month make a marriage? No, but it's a start.
Quote: That any future H-W R between the two of you, or any other R (friendship, co-parents, strangers) that may replace it, will need to be built with the honesty and trust of two people who know that each has chosen to be in that R with the other. Until the two of you decide to be in the same relationship together, you are respecting both of you as people with emotions and feelings by taking some space to develop your own life.
That is sage advice. I will keep mulling that over because as you may have read, one of my greatest fears is that my W will simply try to go back to the way things were without addressing any of this. No matter the cost, I cannot allow that to happen. There needs to be a new foundation of trust built between us, and that can't happen without honest and forthright communication from BOTH of us.
GH....OT has once again given you some sound advice. Just an FYI regarding your post. Yes you have come a long way in such a short time, much quicker than some on here...however, keep in mind, a month, that does not equate to the history of the M. Your W will still look for consistent changes in you, the M and you should expect to see consistency in her also. Something I read in one of the many books was that it took months, years for the M to be in the current state and it can take just as long to get it back on track if it does work out. So while I know you are smarter than the average bear, just have patience, stick to your hard work, make sure the changes are for you and don't be disappointed by minor setbacks. Good luck with your C session today!!
Something I read in one of the many books was that it took months, years for the M to be in the current state and it can take just as long to get it back on track if it does work out.
My rule of thumb is that it takes about as half as long as the "bad relationship" in the eyes of the WAS's time was. Of course, that's far longer than any LBS's wishful time table.
Just as it takes time for flesh wounds to heal, it takes time for emotional wounds to heal.
Indeed, she has. I disagree with some of it, but so much of it rings true. Those who have followed my sitch know that the idea of physical distancing, or GAL in my case is really a touchy thing, and so much of what she was saying centered around that idea. I am truly GAL as much as a man can with 2 small kids and 60-70 hours of work outside the home this time of year including many Saturdays and nights. I feel it's more important for me to show I can be there for my family right now than me getting a life. I HAVE a life, always have, I just want a family now.
Also, thank you for the compliments. I am just smart enough to get myself in trouble. Thanks to you and all the others I am doing ok. I have made SO many changes for me I can't even remember them, and I certainly can't even begin to imaging how I existed the way I was before. I think I always wanted to change, or go back to my "real" self, but needed this BIG push to do it. Now I am a snowball...
(1) If it is less clothes at bedtime, that is a HUGE indicator of increased trust and intimacy, probably even more than you think. I really don't think that she would do that unless she has decided firmly upon being with you.
(2) By all appearances, you started pursuing her again. You initiate the physical touch the majority of the time and the flirting. There is a fine line here. If you can add this dynamic BECAUSE you are detached without expectations and simply enjoy her company, that is probably fine. But, if you are doing it out of neediness for a response, that is different.
(3) How do you step away from the old-R? Quit believing that you need it. What you want is a new R that works for both of you. Good for you for recognizing that this isn't automatic even if she comes back. And, always remember that you and kids can have a wonderful life without her. It just isn't what you want. And, I think you have a good chance of getting your current wants met.
(4) No matter how much growth you have done, what started the A is there to some significant degree. First, you have not changed the patterns BETWEEN the two of you in a husband-wife relationship that contributed to the A. You can't do this until you are in a H-W R and they haven't magically disappeared. Second, when you talk about addiction, you aren't too far off. Though, I find the addiction talk a bit too dismissive of the unmet needs your W is/has experienced. It also fails to recognize the part of your W that needs to feel that she is a good person who wouldn't F everything up for some meaningless A. Even if that is what she did, it is hard, brutally hard to face up to that. Thus, the ongoing drama and difficulty letting go and making a clean break is self-protectiveness on her part, saving face if you will. Anyway, lol, the drug part is apt because the A is a mind-numbing emotional escape. It is running away from the factors that led to the A rather than growing beyond them. She is still coping in part by using the A, it's remains, or the drama to mask her pain rather than process and address it. The A can function as a feel good drug (heroin) or as a painful distraction (cutting), but both are forms of escape.
Anyway, it seems that the new way of living and interacting with others that you are developing FOR YOURSELF is certainly worth maintaining because of that. It is when you shift to living that way out of need that it gets dicey. BTW, the flirtatiousness, etc, that you are able to engage in now that doesn't hurt because it isn't needy is probably all about you, lol. That's a good thing. It is probably available to you as a way to interact because you feel so much better about yourself. And, see how much more fun and attractive that makes you because of the increased confidence?
Rambling here, I know. But look, if you can't see another way to live because of your kids, then you need to figure one out. You need to feel in your bones that your life with your children will be wonderful no matter what W does. That is the point at which you both really gain freedom to choose to be together.
Ack, but wait, why isn't she wearing the new PJs you bought her?
Is the shift to avoid wearing your V-day present OR to reach out to you?
See, I can second guess along with the rest of you. Another reason not to worry about it until you are in an R in which you can discuss them.
Anyway, one more bit of advice which may sound contrary to what else I've said but really isn't.
(1) Quit needing your W. Say to yourself, I am not a victim, I am choosing my own path, I will have a wonderful life. Say it over and over until you believe it. You may need to do it multiple times a day as you feel yourself slip.
(2) When you feel that with certainty (which may come and go, lol), be very direct about what is going on with you. That is, DON'T WALK ON EGGSHELLS, DON'T PASSIVELY AGGRESSIVELY HINT AROUND. Try saying things like, "W, here's a new cute/sexy pajama set. I love you sleeping in a t-shirt and feeling the heat from your skin. I feel uncomfortable twinges of jealousy though because I don't recognize the t-shirt so I thought I'd do something about it. Cuz, I really want to keep enjoying the feel of your skin without those annoying thoughts going through my mind." OR "I feel so insecure and unsettled because I don't understand where we are in this R." OR "I'm going to have to distance myself from you while we are in a place in which our commitment to a monogomous (emotionally and physically) R is not clear." OR (W, you are driving me crazy lately with that smile you give me when I flirt with you. Come over here, take off those clothes, and bend over the couch."
Yes, I'm serious about talking to her in any of those ways when you can do so directly without neediness.
I can completely understand where you are coming from with the GAL. When I worked in Special Events as well as in the Entertainment industry my idea of GAL was going home and chilling out. Constantly being around people, catering to them etc...actually wore me out. Plus we respectfully do know our roles as responsible parents. I think the base of the GAL principal is to not go crazy and have your own midlife crisis, but to remember that you are a person with your own needs. When we initially find ourselves in these sitches, we are beyond reason, some of us border line obsessive towards the WAS and the R. GAL is to help those step back and take the focus off the WAS and put it back on us. However, as we move forward and drop the rope I think we find ourselves in an peaceful state then we don't need all the GAL which I think is just an escape for us. When all this happened to me, I went from going out twice a week to three times a week. It did become an escape from me. But now I don't need it. The reward is not as great as it was initially. I haven't been out in almost 3wks. Haven't really thought about it until the past couple of days and tonight hmmm contemplating going out. Who knows. I'm more at peace with myself these days. I don't need it as much as I did. I enjoy my company, my time alone to think. I am probably also sick of all the drama that follows me when I do go out. LOL. I also think some people cannot handle being alone and need the constant escape which doesn't make them much different from what the WAS has done.
The key my friend is to find a healthy balance in ourselves. Finding our way in the world again...perhaps finding that way with the WAS and perhaps not. Some of us find that once we make those changes that are true to us, we no longer want the R that we had.
In your sitch, your GAL perhaps affected your M and it's good that you can see this. You realized this with your decision regarding attending the basketball game and W did take notice. Keep with your program of monitoring responses from her.
Regarding the incident of your W wearing different from normal sleepwear, I do find this huge. I grew up in Cali...most of my friends along with myself dressed to go to sleep...why because of earthquakes. LOL...funny I know but hey no one wants to get caught in the midst of one bare ass nakked. Depending on who I have been with in my life determined my sleeping apparel through the years. The more intimate I was in an R, the less I would wear. When you get settled into a ritual with someone (honeymoon being over) you tend to start not thinking about things like this and start dressing for sleep more comfortably, pjs, tshirts and sweats...etc. Just my thoughts.
Quote: (1) If it is less clothes at bedtime, that is a HUGE indicator of increased trust and intimacy, probably even more than you think. I really don't think that she would do that unless she has decided firmly upon being with you.
Yes, I agree. This is HUGE for her. Of course it only lasted a few nights, but it was enough. Trust me, it was enough...lol. I really hope it is a sign of her comfort.
Quote: (2) By all appearances, you started pursuing her again. You initiate the physical touch the majority of the time and the flirting. There is a fine line here. If you can add this dynamic BECAUSE you are detached without expectations and simply enjoy her company, that is probably fine. But, if you are doing it out of neediness for a response, that is different.
I am not looking for a response really. I am just expressing my feelings in a normal, adult male way with respect and genuine flirtyness. I have not done that in the past and she seems to be enjoying it.
Quote: (3) How do you step away from the old-R? Quit believing that you need it. What you want is a new R that works for both of you. Good for you for recognizing that this isn't automatic even if she comes back. And, always remember that you and kids can have a wonderful life without her. It just isn't what you want. And, I think you have a good chance of getting your current wants met.
I know we can go on without her and be good. I know that. As for getting my current wants met, well, I may have to schedule a trip to vegas...lol.
Quote: 4) No matter how much growth you have done, what started the A is there to some significant degree. First, you have not changed the patterns BETWEEN the two of you in a husband-wife relationship that contributed to the A. You can't do this until you are in a H-W R and they haven't magically disappeared. Second, when you talk about addiction, you aren't too far off.
I agree that the dynamic needs to change, and I think that's what is happening even though we are not fully H & W right now. We are building a foundation that will serve us if/when we do recommit.
Quote: BTW, the flirtatiousness, etc, that you are able to engage in now that doesn't hurt because it isn't needy is probably all about you, lol. That's a good thing. It is probably available to you as a way to interact because you feel so much better about yourself. And, see how much more fun and attractive that makes you because of the increased confidence?
It is ALL about me. I am just so comfortable with myself right now and more than ever I feel confident in expressing that. Again, it has been well received so far!
Quote: But look, if you can't see another way to live because of your kids, then you need to figure one out.
I'm not too sure about this one so I will answer the way I think you mean; I am saying I DO live a life outside my R and the little time I have, I want to spend it with my kids and eventually my W. My having a life has never been the problem and it's not one now.
Thank you SO much for the posts today. It really helps a lot. Post early and often.
