Unique situation....things r changin? Part 5

[grasshopper]

No, OT, that was not harsh, or at least I didn't take it that way...here goes the breakdown...

She came toward you at that point. Unfortunately, you immediately closed the gap. You once again clearly entered and stayed in the R far more than she is.

I suppose you are right. To clarify that, she has been constantly moving "towards" me for about 2 weeks now. I have not changed anything that I have been doing since starting DB.

For her to have the space she needs to gain clarity, you must step away from the R. You should not be in the R more than she is. You are dreaming of romantic interludes in Ireland. Your actions show her that she has you back in line and is giving you enough to keep you there. Sounds to me like a Just in Case scenario.

Yes, the just in case scenario is one that I am afraid of. Am I dreaming of romantic interludes, you bet I am. Am I expecting them, hell no.
As for being in the R more than she is, I admit that I probably am. I don't know what more to do to pull back more. Sure, I am responding to her opening up to me, and I guess that's wrong, but it is a judgment call for me to make and I have made it. If it costs me my marriage, then so be it, but from the beginning I decided I never wanted to regret this process. If I did not explore where she is right now, I would regret that. I am prepared for the setback if it happens...or at least as much as can be. Your advice is well heard and I will seriously consider it.

She knows what is going on must end, viz, her leading a torturous existence. But, she has not said what she thinks the solution is.

Actually, she has. She said she knows her affair must end. She said that from the beginning. She has always maintained that a divorce was NOT what SHE wanted but she was confused as to where to go from here. She has never insinuated or said she wanted a separation. Of course, minds change, but to this point she has been consistent that she wants our M to survive this.

I believe you mentioned she began sleeping in clothes. This is a HUGE denial of intimacy.

Um, no, the complete opposite. She has always slept in long pants PJ's and recently she started sleeping in a t-shirt and panties. VERY unusual for her. She is very body conscious, especially when it comes to her legs. For her to not be wearing pants anytime is a big deal. This was one of the things that she did that signaled something may be changing with her.

She feels no pain of losing you right now because she hasn't. Your presence remains strong, she is sure of it. It is probably even somewhat cloying and oppressive to her. She cannot get a true sense of her own feelings with you remaining in an R that she has left.

Ok, again, I agree. I have not left. I guess we have to agree to disagree here because I don't know how I "leave" a R that involves 2 small boys. Most of our interaction centers around them and anything else is gravy.
One thing I think it is important you know is that my communication with my W has never been that good, especially when it comes to heavy issues, or personal discussions. Lately, we have been able to talk with ease, about anything. This is a HUGE shift in our R, as friends or otherwise. She's noticed that too.
It's what I meant when I said that I wondered if the changes in our R and me would be enough for my W. There is SO much that is better about things now that should they continue like this, could turn the tide. You say I need to leave the R now, and distance myself. I personally think this would be a huge mistake. This is a time when we are connecting more than ever before and for me to pull away and start playing that game right now would not be productive. What do I have to lose by deepening my friendship with my W. Isn't that one of the main principals of DB?

Back off. Quit dreaming. Live your own freaking life. If you are into the R far enough that it matters what she is doing with OM, then you are too far into the R. Why? Because you don't have a partner that is participating in an R in which clear monogamy, emotional and physical, is a requirement. You need to move yourself into that R and step out of the old R. I am in NO WAY encouraging you to have an A of any sort. But, you are in an R in which you are basically dating someone who is unwilling to commit AND unwilling to be honest with you about the other parts of her life. This will NOT change until she gains clarity. She will NOT gain clarity with you on top of her mooning over her.

Ok, and another way to say "GAL" and distance myself. See above. With my kids in the picture, and all the outside work I am already doing above and beyond the 40 hours I put in at the day job these days, I AM NOT going to be gone anymore. Sorry. If my W wants to leave me because I want to spend time with my kids, then she can go. I am doing the best I can considering the circumstances.

Get excited doing research on what YOU will be doing in Ireland. Look at special things that you will put on the agenda. You are going as part of a travel group and you have a roommate.

Done. I have TONS of things I want to do, and since I will be driving... Also, I am not going as part of a group. I will admit to the W being not much more than a roommate. Sad but true.

Trust me, it is unattractive AND unempowering to deceive yourself by staying in an R that is not present. You can't tell what YOU want. She can't tell what SHE wants.

I don't think my M exists in any way the same as before. My kids are the only physical reminders of it. I look at it more as, as you said, dating in a way. I have never really tried to woo my W. From day one I just laid expectations on her and for 8 years, she tried to live up to them. I never really tried to entice her into affection, I just sort of demanded it by my manipulation.
I realized that and now I am just trying to be a normal man who is attracted to a woman. NONE of my actions these days are "more of the same" from me.

Also, quit feeling so ENTITLED to having your W back fully. Quit waiting for her to GET OVER her stupid fling and fall all over you. Whatever drove her to the affair is still there. Her pain in your R from both your actions severed that R. It is over. She can choose to reenter into a new husband-wife R with you OR NOT. It is her free choice. She is not abusing you by taking time to decide whether or not to do so.

First of all, my W will never "fall all over me". It's not in her nature. I don't suspect she is doing it with this other guy and I know from her past R's that she didn't do it with them either. If she did do that, it would be a huge 180, one that I think would be totally counter to her personality. She does not pursue. She is pursued.
As for the thing(s) that "caused" the A in the first place still being there, yes, maybe, and maybe not. That's up to her to decide. I know that right away, through counseling and introspection, I discovered some really ugly traits I had that my W even told me contributed in LARGE part to our downfall. I think even she would tell you that those are greatly diminished now. Sure, I have a LONG way to go, but I am not one of those who doesn't know why his W left and marriage is in terrible shape. My issues permeated every facet of my life, my kids, work, marriage, everything. It is clear when you observe things now that things are MUCH different. Whether that is something that contributes to a new marriage forming, I don't know.
As for being entitled to having my W back fully, I won't say I don't feel that way if I am being honest. Sorry. Slap taken and rolled with.

You, though, are abusing yourself by putting yourself in the role of victim in an R that no longer exists waiting for what you think is rightfully yours to be returned.

Ok, I'll accept this. I do suppose I am waiting for what's "mine" to return. I need to change this idea. Point taken.

STEP AWAY FROM THE R FURTHER THAN SHE HAS. IF YOU REAPPROACH HER, DO SO AT A FAR SLOWER RATE THAN SHE APPROACHES YOU. You BOTH need to be VERY CLEAR that any rebuilding of an R at this point is because SHE WANTS TO and does so freely.

If you don't think that will work for you, then find something else that does, but which does not involve mooning by yourself sitting squarely in an ex-R.

Again, because of the dramatically changed dynamic in my R, I don't consider it in any way the ex-R. This is something entirely new. The level of communication we have, and HER encouragement of that communication (she used to basically suggest that I go upstairs after the kids went to bed). She now enjoys my company (now that I am not a whiney b!tch, obsessing over everything and constantly trying to prove I am right).

Are we on the verge of a full fledged resurgence of romance? Who the hell knows. Are we working towards a stronger friendship, yes, this is for sure.
Do I still care about her being with the OM? You bet, and so long as I am married, I retain that right. You can shout me down, hang me, do whatever, but I will be damned if I stop CARING if she is with another man. Now, what I DO in reaction to it is another story altogether.

Thank you for your post. You challenge me. I am not sure I answered the challenge well in all cases, but I tried best I could.

GH