Thanks Rob, and your words calmed me a bit. I've missed you (and others) posting to my thread. I didn't mention it before but I have been reading The Little Book of Letting Go for awhile now. I am about 1/2 way through. Pretty good stuff. So long as we are doing book reports, I also read Transforming Yourself and was not that impressed. Lots of good quotes from other psychologists and theories, but not much in the way of actual tools to use in taking action. Good for philosophy, not so good for instruction.
My next book will be Mars/Venus. I think I need to start understanding male/female communication MUCH better, especially on this trip!
Quote: With regard to your W, you're probably right. She's not exhibiting those signs that we all long to see, but that necessarily doesn't mean bad things. She is confused, she likely knows that her place is there with you, but this "addiction" is pulling at her. It has to die its own death and it seems as though she is letting go to some degree. It won't happen overnight...for some reason she feels connected to the OM and giving up that connection is never easy.
I guess I understand this, but impatience and worry creep in all the time. So, she could be clinging to those things (shirts, songs, etc) that tie her to him and maybe it's not necessarily a sign that she's still going strong with him?
Quote: The way I see it, at least when viewing my sitch, is that in the end, they always must make a choice. I know for my W, it is emotionally impossible for her to carry on two lives for very long. I can see the affects of it already.
Yes, I see that too. My W has said more than a few times that this needs to end, yet she seems not to be able, or willing to end it. It's at times when I see this that I feel compelled to "give her a push" or a pull if you will to help her over the hurdle. I know I can't though. She says she still loves me and knows she doesn't want a D, then why not just END the A and do what's right!
Quote: The best thing you can do right now GH is to stay your course. You've been doing so well in all this and I'd hate for you to jump ship at the wrong time. Remember, you have chosen to stick by this for at least another couple of weeks and THEN re-evaluate where you are. Stick by that committment. Let the trip be what it is, don't expect the world, but have fun with it. Don't dwell on the negatives here. Patience.
Patience. Never one of my virtues. I am working on it. I am going to stick by my goal. I did good yesterday by NOT confronting her about going out. I decided that it was not in keeping with my goals so I let it go...or at least as much as I could. In the end, I actually accepted (better NYS?) her when she said she went alone. I think she may have indeed.
Quote: She says she still loves me and knows she doesn't want a D, then why not just END the A and do what's right!
That's the nature of addiction, though. The drunk knows that his drinking is ruining his life, but he can't stop because of the power of the drug. It's the same for your W (and mine).
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
Quote: I've missed you (and others) posting to my thread.
It does seem to have been a quite weekend around here, hopefully that's a good sign.
Okay, since we are doing book reports I might as well fess up. I've been reading "Private Lies" by Frank Pittman re: affairs and there was another one I read but the name escapes me right now. In any event, I really didn't find much use in those books. They both were good at describing why A's might or might not happen and such, but I didn't find much in the way of self-help. I'm trying to work on building myself, not over-analyzing the A.
I highly recommend Mars/Venus, very insightful stuff there.
Quote: I guess I understand this, but impatience and worry creep in all the time. So, she could be clinging to those things (shirts, songs, etc) that tie her to him and maybe it's not necessarily a sign that she's still going strong with him?
Yes, patience. Never one of my strong suites either. But if there every is a time to address a character flaw, this is it. I still exhibit this impatience from time to time and Saturday morning was no exception....I just felt really used at that moment, but for no apparent reason.
As for giving up the "items"...this is another major sticking point for me. I know that she has at least two cd's that he gave to her that are in heavy rotation in her listening schedule. Listening to her listen to those CD's can really trigger a lot of emotion for me, but she isn't giving them up. Just as an aside, I remember when I was going through my moment, the OW had burned a CD for me, nothing romantic, just a CD. W found it and immediately insisted that I get rid of it, which I did. Where's the reciprocity?
But I digress, she is still holding on to these things because she still feels whatever connection that they represent....not necessarily him, but maybe just the feeling of being "loved". I don't know if that's coming across right, but our W's are on a high typically known as puppy love. We all know what that feels like and it can be intoxicating. Its hard to give that up.
By the way, I know you watch Grey's Anatomy, and we started watching it just recently. I think I hated this past episode.
Quote: It's at times when I see this that I feel compelled to "give her a push" or a pull if you will to help her over the hurdle. I know I can't though. She says she still loves me and knows she doesn't want a D, then why not just END the A and do what's right!
Yes, I get this all the time as well. On Sunday, W made it a point to tell me that her place is here with me and the girls, that she wants to be here, she loves me, etc. OK, I like that, but why does she compelled to keep her R with OM? I guarantee you she'll be calling him this week and seeing him at work. So, if you know this is where you need to be, then why play with fire? Its those times that I can really get impatient, but we must remember that we cannot control what they do. Knowing that she knows that means a lot becuase she is actually looking at things realistically. Again, this sitch cannot go on forever.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Quote: That's the nature of addiction, though. The drunk knows that his drinking is ruining his life, but he can't stop because of the power of the drug. It's the same for your W (and mine).
Ok, so using the drunk analogy, then isn't an intervention a possibility at some point? Isn't there ever a time when we see this lingering, our W's give us many signs that they WANT to come back, that we need to jump in and pull them out?
Many different "experts" suggest that forcing the A to end it paramount to surviving it. Of course, we here in DB land reject that with good reason I think but here we are weeks, months, years, living with something that maybe could have ended long ago should we have stood up to it and demanded that it end.
This would be, in fact, the major conflict I face within my head and heart all the time. IS DB the right thing to do, or would the gamble of forcing the issue pay off in my W leaving the OM?
Well, right now I am DBing my arse off and it seems to be working. I think in the end, we hope for a stronger union then would be possible if we forced them back into an unhappy R with us, unchanged and still looking outward for happiness. Sound about right?
Isn't there ever a time when we see this lingering, our W's give us many signs that they WANT to come back, that we need to jump in and pull them out?
That assumes that you have control over the WASs' actions. All you can do is give them, by your consistent actions, reasons to reconsider. In effect, that can have a "pull". I think it's cumulative, not any one single act is going to have a WAS jump back, though one may eventually hear their WAS say something like, "but it was when you did [whatever] that I realized I loved you"... yet, in fact, it was not that one act, but all that came before that set the groundwork.
but here we are weeks, months, years, living with something that maybe could have ended long ago should we have stood up to it and demanded that it end.
The problem is that the risk of making such an ultimatum outweighs the pro, especially if the ultimatum is made at the wrong time, such as when the WAS very much wants nothing more than not to be in the relationship.
If it takes months or years, the trade off is that the WAS did have time then to discover if their actions paid off with the grass being greener or not, and self-realizations can set in that lead the WAS to figure things out.
I think in the end, we hope for a stronger union then would be possible if we forced them back into an unhappy R with us, unchanged and still looking outward for happiness. Sound about right?
And that's another risk to ultimatums, should the spouse respond to the ultimatum and come back for any other reason than real love and determination to make it work.
Here's my take on DBing. I truly believe that forcing an end to the A is extremely counterproductive for a variety of reasons. Number one, and I know my W, forcing her to a decision will only lead to resentment. If I force her to stop, assuming of course that she does, it is likely that she will resent me. Also, we always long for the things we can't have. Sounds rather juvenille, but think about it. The "forbidden fruit" always tastes the best in our minds. If we do not allow them to come to their own decisions, the OP will always be the forbidden fruit, something that they will always look back upon and wonder whether it was worth the risk.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather have my W choose this life because SHE wants it...not because I forced her hand. If I were to do so, wouldn't I always question whether it was a choice made out of love or just committment?
Besides, DBing is good for us because, when followed to a "T", it allows us to step back and examine ourselves within the context of the R. This is essential because we all know that we cannot continue to pick up the M right where it left off. Things have to be different.
That's my two cents worth....for what its worth.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Back when Dave and I met and talked about things. I went over everything with my DB Coach. What he heard through our talk was that Dave was looking for me to end the A for him. He couldn't face being the bad guy...so it would be easier for him to put me in the sitch. The DB Coach saw it as perhaps an easy way to get him back home however, if things did not work out, Dave could always go back to ow and say well I tried it, didn't work out...told you it wouldn't. The coach said it was very important that the WAS come back of their own free will. Not because of an ultimatum, promises, etc. It does make sense. Of course, I followed the DB coach and when Dave and I last spoke, his words to me "You ruined everything that night." which we took to mean that I didn't follow through with his plan, once again...leaving him to be stuck where he is because he can't find any strength to get hiimself out of it. Not my job. He has to learn how to stand on his own two feet and make his own decisions. Additionally, and more importantly in our sitch, there would have been no changes coming from Dave. So it would have been a complete return to the same ole same ole, which is not acceptable to me.
I think you all make valid points. I am in one of those limbo times where things SEEM ripe for reconciliation but I know the OM is still lingering, if not fully involved in my W's life. It's these times I start to wonder if a change of tactic is in order. Conventional wisdom says that DB got me here and I should (and do) trust it to get me to my eventual goal of building a better, more secure marriage with my W. I think I am making decent progress towards that ultimate goal and some of the smaller goals have been accomplished and set aside. I guess I am just uncomfortable with this thing that seems like stagnation. I have been so conditioned to taking action that this time where INACTION may be called for is difficult. I have also found that true to the advice I have received and even GIVEN, now that things are returning back to slightly more normal in my R, my guard is dropping and I am probably too close to saying or doing things that may backfire (R talk and pursuing affection). I will back off on each right now.
One bit of journaling. I read all over this site that our WAS need time to miss us if they are to realize what they have in us. I don't think my W has missed me at all. I have never been that far away in all this. It scares me a bit. On the other hand, she has definitely noticed my changes. The entire house is a more calm, peaceful place since I truly recognized my role in all this and too decisive action to change. For my W, the changes may be enough, or maybe they won't be. We'll see.
OK Grasshopper. You might want to skip this post. This is beyond a 2x4, but I'm not feeling very patient today. I sincerely believe all of this AND that it is what you need to hear and do. But, (1) that is merely my opinion and (2) it is in my harsh style but (3) intended to help and support you.
Your W was starting to miss you when you let go a bit, stepped away from the R, and just started focusing on yourself and what YOU would do, not what she was doing. This was a very brief period of time around V-day.
She came toward you at that point. Unfortunately, you immediately closed the gap. You once again clearly entered and stayed in the R far more than she is.
For her to have the space she needs to gain clarity, you must step away from the R. You should not be in the R more than she is. You are dreaming of romantic interludes in Ireland. Your actions show her that she has you back in line and is giving you enough to keep you there. Sounds to me like a Just in Case scenario.
She knows what is going on must end, viz, her leading a torturous existence. But, she has not said what she thinks the solution is. The more she becomes content with becoming a WAW, for instance, the more at peace she will be at home and with you. I believe you mentioned she began sleeping in clothes. This is a HUGE denial of intimacy.
She feels no pain of losing you right now because she hasn't. Your presence remains strong, she is sure of it. It is probably even somewhat cloying and oppressive to her. She cannot get a true sense of her own feelings with you remaining in an R that she has left.
Back off. Quit dreaming. Live your own freaking life. If you are into the R far enough that it matters what she is doing with OM, then you are too far into the R. Why? Because you don't have a partner that is participating in an R in which clear monogamy, emotional and physical, is a requirement. You need to move yourself into that R and step out of the old R. I am in NO WAY encouraging you to have an A of any sort. But, you are in an R in which you are basically dating someone who is unwilling to commit AND unwilling to be honest with you about the other parts of her life. This will NOT change until she gains clarity. She will NOT gain clarity with you on top of her mooning over her.
Go joing a bridge club, a running club. Make new friends. Do it this week. Let go of the R that no longer exists. Get together with some DBers in Florida. Get excited doing research on what YOU will be doing in Ireland. Look at special things that you will put on the agenda. You are going as part of a travel group and you have a roommate.
Trust me, it is unattractive AND unempowering to deceive yourself by staying in an R that is not present. You can't tell what YOU want. She can't tell what SHE wants.
Also, quit feeling so ENTITLED to having your W back fully. Quit waiting for her to GET OVER her stupid fling and fall all over you. Whatever drove her to the affair is still there. Her pain in your R from both your actions severed that R. It is over. She can choose to reenter into a new husband-wife R with you OR NOT. It is her free choice. She is not abusing you by taking time to decide whether or not to do so.
You, though, are abusing yourself by putting yourself in the role of victim in an R that no longer exists waiting for what you think is rightfully yours to be returned.
STEP AWAY FROM THE R FURTHER THAN SHE HAS. IF YOU REAPPROACH HER, DO SO AT A FAR SLOWER RATE THAN SHE APPROACHES YOU. You BOTH need to be VERY CLEAR that any rebuilding of an R at this point is because SHE WANTS TO and does so freely.
If you don't think that will work for you, then find something else that does, but which does not involve mooning by yourself sitting squarely in an ex-R.
P.S. Here's a carrot. If you can really step away from the old-R as much as she has and give her real freedom, it might not take her that long to get it -- the it being that she really does love you and wants to spend her life with you (hopefully, NO guarantees). How long did it take you to get it when you got the bomb???? It is not the facts around the bomb that lead to those feelings, it is the severance of the relationship -- feeling your life without her in it as your W. She has no similar experience to give her that kind of insight. This doesn't require cruelty, or cheating, or abandonment. It simply requires you also stepping out of the old R that she already left.
If she says anything, just tell her that you want to respect both of you by giving you each the space you need to figure out what you each want. That it is not healthy for you to stay in an old R that she has left. That any future H-W R between the two of you, or any other R (friendship, co-parents, strangers) that may replace it, will need to be built with the honesty and trust of two people who know that each has chosen to be in that R with the other. Until the two of you decide to be in the same relationship together, you are respecting both of you as people with emotions and feelings by taking some space to develop your own life.
