Another Thursday

[grasshopper]

Rob,

It seems like at least frame-of-mind-wise, our W's may be in similar places. My W has not even come close to the contrition of yours' but her actions bely something.
I really think YOU need to use this weekend to work your own confusion and feeling out. You should find a way to set some personal goals and a plan to achieve them.
Your W is giving you every chance in the world to demonstrate your "new self" to her. She may be at the point where she is mentally convinced that you are the one, but her heart is still confusing the issue. Now may be the time to make sure you let her know you love and forgive her.
One thing that helped me the past few days is that I started thinking of my W as a woman I was really interested in, not my wife. I also realized that I had self esteem issues all our R and it prevented me from having confidence with things like initiating kissing, cuddling, etc. Sex was fine, but much of the time, it was not intimate, make sense? Not much kissing, etc.
So I am just approaching this like I am courting my W. Like any other woman I would court, I do not expect sex just because I hug her. I don't expect to kiss her even though I am pretty sure she may be ok with it. I am acting like a confident man who knows what he wants but is secure enough to wait for it and at ALL times behaves with respect.
That was a big issue with me. Too much a$$ slapping and not enough sincere affection...sorry, enough about me...

So for you, this weekend can be a GREAT time for you to start some growth.
I really believe you are in one of the best positions of all of us to make things better ASAP. The only thing standing in the way of that seems to be you and I have confidence that you will soon be able to see how to get out of your own way.

GH

[PArob]

Yeah, I think you're right on a lot of levels. I believe that in her mind, she knows this is where she wants to be, etc, but her confusion about her feelings is throwing a monkey wrench into this whole process. Plus, as you have said, i can really be my own worst enemy at times.

In any event, I need to do a great deal of soul searching this weekend and decide what it is that I can do and cannot do...there are so many positives, but I let those little negatives wipe everyone one of them out.

I do not doubt that she knows that I love her, in fact she has told me that perhpas for the first time in our R, she really honestly knows and believes that I love her. I really believe that she never expected me to have this much patience and understanding (although I still have a long way to go, it is a vast improvement for me) so I have to continue working on that.

As for forgiveness, this is my major hang-up right now. Basically I dwell on everything that I have learned...the lies, betrayal, etc. It is killing me. We had a small discussion on this earlier today, I just mentioned that this was something I had to deal with and determine how much I could do. Something she said kind of brought it back into line for me when she said "well, remember, you were no angel when you were with OW". Ouch! Yeah, she's right on that point. However, I didn't point this out, but I thought it, one of the things she said to me when this whole thing started going down was that she never forgave me for that incident.

I guess I really have to work some of those things out and see where they lie....I know in my heart of hearts that any decisions she makes that are a result of my pressure, guilt, etc. are not her true decisions, but on the other hand, I have boundaries that I can live within. All so very confusing......

[grasshopper]

As for forgiveness, this is my major hang-up right now. Basically I dwell on everything that I have learned...the lies, betrayal, etc. It is killing me.

I think if there is any area where I have been able to do something really well, it is this one. I actually told someone that I would NOT take back the past month. I would choose to go through the pain because IF my W and I make it through this, I KNOW it will be better than before.

You have to get to the point where you can just accept your W's actions not so much as a betrayal, but as a mistake she made when not considering you.
I don't know how many of our WAS think to themselves "Hmmmm, what could I do to really screw him up? Oh, I know, violate his trust and have an affair."
We know that's not how it happens and YOU know more than the rest of us.
Sure, those feelings may arise in the course of things, but I don't think they set out to hurt us so much as they just don't consider us as much as themselves.
When I think of things this way, it lets me see more clearly the path to forgiveness. Now, if my W, or yours, actually said they did this to hurt us, and we believed them, then that's a different story. I know mine has said almost the complete opposite. How 'bout yours?

If you were/are a controlling person like me and I think we have established you are, then you must find a way to stop all this worrying about the past. You are attempting to control even that, which is silly.
What happened, happened and no amount of thinking about it will change it. Think of it like your most important detachment project right now. You need to detach from the past, what your W did, and anything else that causes you to dwell in self pity/sadness.
Also, this is good because you can practice this detachment while she is gone.

Also like you, I now have a situation where it seems as if my W is downplaying the OM (for real now) and looks to be moving him out of her life, but then again, I don't know that. You and I will both face severe tests of our new ability to channel our negativity.

Read, have fun, see friends, etc. this weekend and let it be a time when Rob becomes whoever he wants to be. Introduce her to you when she gets back.

GH

[PArob]

I don't know how many of our WAS think to themselves "Hmmmm, what could I do to really screw him up? Oh, I know, violate his trust and have an affair."
We know that's not how it happens and YOU know more than the rest of us.

You are so abolutely right on this and I, better than anyone should know it. I guess I got to caught up in my own feelings to recognize that its not her intention to make me feel this way.

If you were/are a controlling person like me and I think we have established you are, then you must find a way to stop all this worrying about the past. You are attempting to control even that, which is silly.
What happened, happened and no amount of thinking about it will change it. Think of it like your most important detachment project right now. You need to detach from the past, what your W did, and anything else that causes you to dwell in self pity/sadness.

Again, correct. I know I cannot change what has happened and can only look to make things better in the future. Funny, as I typed that line, I remember saying the same exact thing to my W last year after my sitch went down.....

Also like you, I now have a situation where it seems as if my W is downplaying the OM (for real now) and looks to be moving him out of her life, but then again, I don't know that. You and I will both face severe tests of our new ability to channel our negativity.

Yes, I think that you and I both have some very interesting challenges ahead. I believe that I am better equipped to deal with them today than I was a few months ago, but I know that I am not quite there yet. This weekend should prove interesting.

Thanks again GH, as always, you have been a big help.

[PArob]

Saturday morning and things are really in limbo here. W is away on her WAS retreat and I'm trying to figure out what me and the girls can do to chase away the boredom. This is supposed to be our time away to think about things. I have some serious reservations about everything at this point...a real dilemma:

Currently, things in my sitch are going relatively okay as I've indicated in my previous posts. Not much different than anyone elses really, but I'm so confused at this point. Right now, I know that there can be (I am stealing this line from another thread) reconciliation before its time. An interesting concept, but in reality, it is so true. The problem is, I can only handle so much...I feel that by being here for her and maintaining the status quo is only enabling her to continue the A and possibly getting herself in deeper. On the other hand, I know that I cannot force a decision because it leaves unresolved feelings within her. Not a good result. In many ways, I feel that its up to me to remove myself from the sitch and let her see where it rides. I obviously don't want a D or a Separation, but I feel that if the status quo is kept, where does that get us? I see so many people on here that are doing just that, maintaining the status quo and I'm not sure its gotten anyone anywhere. My W recognizes that I am a good person and that there is so much going for us, but can't seem to shake her addiction to OM. It seems to me that nothing about that will change unless there is a shake-up in the norm to upset the balance...or am I just screwing around with nature?

NYS, this is where your expertise comes in (as well as anyone elses for that matter)...I'm just so up in the air. I don't think I can keep acting "as if"....

I really need to take stock of things and get my head together. Maybe acting "as if" isn't so bad...maybe I'm making a bigger deal out of everything than I really need to. She still lives here, she still loves me, she still is intimate with me...so what's really missing?

I'm just rambling at this point, but any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[NYsurvivor]

I feel that by being here for her and maintaining the status quo is only enabling her to continue the A and possibly getting herself in deeper.

Tell me how she's *not* going to do that regardless of what you do or don't do.

On the other hand, I know that I cannot force a decision because it leaves unresolved feelings within her.

Ain't that the truth?

I feel that if the status quo is kept, where does that get us?

But you're on a path to not keep the status quo, aren't you? That is to say, while giving her space, you're working on building your life (finding your own life apart from hers), making improvements in yourself (purging negative behaviors and adopting healthier ones) and in the proper care and feeding of relationships, and thinking "solution oriented" and applying said rather than floundering around led emotionally 24/7?

I see so many people on here that are doing just that, maintaining the status quo and I'm not sure its gotten anyone anywhere.

There's a fair amount of people posting in still early into their sitches, who may or may not be DBing successfully or somewhere in between, or in situations that may never repair no matter what they do, or in situations where reconciliations may happen, as many do, years down the road. Truth is, though we all come here because we want to win our lovers back, in time, many of us learn that's a secondary goal, the primary goal becomes improving ourselves. Aren't too many sites like that. And if you can do that, then you really have gotten somewhere, don't you think?

[PArob]

Thanks NYS, you always come through at a time when its needed the most. As usual, you put things into perspective for me. I seem to always forget about that part of improving oneself as one of the goals in this. This sitch is still in its infancy...I have so much yet to learn.

[PArob]

Here it is, Monday morning and another dose of different day, same...you get the point. In any event, W came home early yesterday from her "retreat". I spent the morning digging out our driveway while the girls went off to play in the snow. W acknowledged that at some point, we needed to talk.

In any event, we got around to sitting down in the afternoon and I laid out some of the things I had been thinking about..namely that I felt that there was a lot of good in our M and that I loved her very much, etc. Nothing out of the ordinary really.

When it came to her turn, she ackowledged that there was a lot of good in our R, that we have always been a very close family (this is true), that she loved me, etc. She knows this is the place for her and so on and over the weekend she was thinking about something I had said to her a couple of weeks ago in relation to my EA in '04. I had told her that what really brought it home for me was that I looked at the OW and asked myself whether I could actually live the rest of my life with that person. She said that she had thought about this over the weekend and couldn't see herself doing that. Interesting. She said a few more things, said that she never intended for this to happen (yes, I understand that completely) and never wanted to hurt me. In the end, she did say that she wanted to make a go of it and would try to move beyond OM.

Okay, so in theory, it sounds so very good and I am pleased, but definitely not convinced or even swayed that this is the case. In the past, I would get emotionally hung up on these words, but this time I feel different. In my heart, I know that despite her best intentions, things are not over and her feelings are just as real today as there were last month, or even three months ago. The fact is, she has strong feelings for OM (she ackowledged this yesterday) and I really don't see her being able to just shut them off. This is the reality and I guess I've come to accept it. The point being, this is so far from being over. She had mentioned yesterday that she would explain this to OM, but I have a feeling that this conversation will not occur anytime in the near future. I am a little sad coming to such a revelation, but I'm stronger in facing it today than I have been in the past. I guess that could be considered progress.

So, the game plan continues. Try to focus on getting rid of my negative behaviors and replacing them with more positive ones, be supportive, and stop snooping! Hopefully a brighter will come, but for now its hard to see the silver lining.

[RBinBR]

PARob, it will be almost impossible for her to "move beyond" her feelings for the OM. That will not work. It's like an alcoholic resolving to drink less. She will need to make a decision to remove him from her life and accept that such a decision will be difficult and will result in her being depressed for a while. I know that this felt like progress, but it really didn't accomplish a whole lot from my perspective.

[PArob]

RB,

I couldn't agree more, really. The ball is in her court at the moment and she must make the decision to end this EA on her own, for her own reasons. It is completely like an acholic making the choice to stop. Whether she will be up to the challenge is another thing completely. The point I was making is that I am not reading anything into her words yesterday. Do I believe she wants to move beyond it? Yeah, I think so....is she emotionally prepared to do so? I don't think she is yet....but who knows, stranger things have happened. She recognizes that she "has to be a stronger person" (her words) and that she used to be such a good person but she now "feels like she entered the twilight zone." I can certainly understand these feelings.

The point being, I am placing very little stock in what she says at this point and only focusing on her actions. If in the next several weeks I begin to see changes in her actions, then I will know. If not, then too I will know. Either way I must accept it for what it is and not lose sight of my goals.

Thanks for your input!