Thanks for chiming in a couple days back (on your own sitch mind you). I'm still just flabergasted on how similar. I've too got some of the same stuff going on...W has been very playful, flirtatious, etc. Its frustrating sure, but I think it allows for some kind of connection that WAS's need.
I think you are doing the right thing overall with it - poster "slowly" had posted on my sitch that she and her H would ML even through their tough parts as a way to keep connected. However, I'd advise caution - my stuff of the past couple days is my reason for suggesting it. I think you have the right idea to make her work for it a little bit - she's engaging and that is a good thing - but she is not to the point of a re-commit, right? Just advising to spare your heart man.
Your holding the cards Frank and that is a great thing. Be patient.
You've "leapfrogged" me and my sitch but I still have hope even while living in the reality of it all. W is off this weekend to see OM, but I've been able to distance myself again and with the help of Just_Me and JoeSchmoe, I've got the strength...
Futhermore I'm really competitive and need to leapfrog you!
Good for you, my best to you!
Sven
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
Quote: However, I'd advise caution - my stuff of the past couple days is my reason for suggesting it. I think you have the right idea to make her work for it a little bit - she's engaging and that is a good thing - but she is not to the point of a re-commit, right? Just advising to spare your heart man.
Your holding the cards Frank and that is a great thing. Be patient.
Yeah, I know what you mean about 'spare your heart'. She's not at the point of a recommit. I do need to spare my heart.
I'm not sure what you mean by I am 'holding all the cards'?
Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Not feeling real 'up' right now. Not negative but not up either.
W's mom and gramma visited today and W was completely detached from me once they arrived. During the day she was a little flirty, but a lot less than before. When they got here she was very nice but even when we were alone she didn't flirt or anything.
Her mom gave me a hug and a kiss which suprised the heck out of me. It was a very nice visit, you wouldn't know we weren't the best of friends and nothing was wrong. We went to the play and had a decent time together.
Afterwards we went home and had some dessert. D15 was tired and pissed about pretty much anything I said to her. D10 misbehaving, to get attention. I had to be 'heavy Dad' which is a role that W always opposes, she acts as if I am TOO strict, but I am not, I just expect kids to be respectful of adults. Anyway she told me later she thought I was 'overbearing' but it didn't turn into a fight.
W was tired and had cramps (it's that time now) so she went to bed. Didn't reach out to me in any way. It always amazes me how she can go hot and cold so easily.
I can feel myself coming down off the high of last weekend, and the past weeks events. As I evaluate the day and evening, I still don't understand why the flirting, the 'comforting' and the occasional closeness? Why the 'show' for her mom? To prove she is so cool she can have a divorce and be friends with me?
What is her point?
Today all I see is that she has got what she wants. She can have intimacy of any level with me and not have to make a commitment to the marriage. That's what it seems like.
I kind of agree with Becca, she is laying a foundation that will make her miss me when or if she moves on divorce path. But there's another side too. She could be just using me to be comfortable, till someone else comes along. I just don't know.
It did kind of hurt being kept at a distance today after the 'attention' I've been getting. At least it was nice to be treated well by her Mom and Grandma. They like me a lot and I think they believe she is making a mistake.
I'm surprised this is bothering me so much. I so wanted to not feel anything for her, but I just can't do it. One thing I have been doing today is to make some deposits in her 'love bank'. I gave her some very genuine complements and other stuff that I KNOW she appreciated. That's the weird part, she loves the complements and is very appreciative but later will act as if we're 'roommates'.
I think I need to back off too. She's taking me for granted and I'm just not sure if she wants to love me or is just getting some basic emotional needs met by playing this game. Any Ideas?
By holding the cards, I guess I mean it would seem that it is up to *you* to allow how much and when in some ways. Consider how you have grown and who you have become. I know the mixed signals are difficult - but recall that you were on the "final" chapter a couple weeks back.
This I guess is why I suggest caution. WAS's want to keep us at arms length if things don't work out. I find myself wondering how today will iron out for me (as I do every Sunday). Will she come home from OM's and say she broke it off? Some of her behaviour the past couple days would indicate she might. But I know better - so I'll plan to do what I did a couple weeks ago and just make my leave from the house when she gets home from work. I need to keep moving on for me and we cannot get better until OM is completely out of the picture.
When do you and W have another MC session? Certainly it would seem you guys have lots to talk about.
In the meantime, go with the flow but keep up the caution. Some real honesty from your W is coming or needs to get out in the open. Patience as usual is the key.
Nothing new to add then, other than my support.
Sven
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
Quote: I know the mixed signals are difficult - but recall that you were on the "final" chapter a couple weeks back.
Yes, you are correct. My positive energy had been depleted to ZERO. I sometimes have to sit and be quiet, let my thoughts come to me and remember that in October I was Depressed, Low self esteem and hated my self and my life already AND THEN W finds her 'soul mate', basically tells me she hasn't loved me for years and wants a divorce ASAP. It has sure been a long climb, but I DID MAKE IT. And only in 4 months.
And I am a lot more positive.
Quote: This I guess is why I suggest caution. WAS's want to keep us at arms length if things don't work out.
By that I think you meant 'if things don't work out between them and us'. Yeah, makes sense. They aren't going to jump back into a relationship with us. They have had a 'plan' for many months and they can't just abandon it. I have the added advantage that our COunselor is very straight with her. Last week she told her "Frank has become the person you said you wanted him to be in your marriage, make sure you don't wait too long to make up your mind or he may be gone." and she said "I will tell you that, with my years of experience I can tell when someone has truly changed inside. Frank HAS changed and he will NEVER go back to the way it was."
So she will keep me at arms length until she finds herself loving me, or tired of me. It'll be one or the other.
Quote: I need to keep moving on for me and we cannot get better until OM is completely out of the picture.
THat is totally true. OM takes the focus away from HERSELF and her own issues.
Her mom and Grandma are here today also. This morning W was every so slightly flirty with me, and she messed up and got 'cute' with me in a playful argument in front of Mom/Grandma. Oops. I don't think she noticed but I looked at their faces and they were very puzzled as to how she could be so cute with me, and I with her yet we are getting DIVORCED.
I'm not going to talk to them about any of this, but it would be interesting if her mom were to mention her observations to her because she has to intuitively see that W sees me as more than 'a friend'. We can always hope.
I do have to back off. I have to go to 'detached' again so she can 'pull me back to her'. She's getting too complacent and if she's going to decide to commit again, I have to upset the balance so she can feel the lonelyness and rejection from me.
I hate that part because, well, it's been nice to have the attention from her. But this is a PROCESS and it needs to proceeed.
continuing with mothers visit. I came fhome from being at my office and happened to goupstairs to my room to get something. W met me at the bedroom door (inside the bedroom) asked me a couple questins, then put her arms around me giving me a bug hug. I actually think she did this because SHE needed to know I was still there. I've been practicing 'neutral' all day.
We went out to dinner and she had some wine. When we got home she would say stuff and give me 'knowing' looks. I would look at he Mom's eyes and I coul dsense the puzzlement. She was lightly flirting and still has her own room, and asked me to rub her shoulders. Mom and Grandma must be totally boggled by this.
I wonder if they will say something to her?
After they left, W asked me if I wanted to come into her room and 'talk'. Do I did, we sat on her bed facing each other. she asked me if I had any burnng issues, I said no. I asked her what was on her mind and she said 'nothing'.
I had on my mind 'why the heck isn't she saying I Love You to me yet?' But kept quiet.
She had sore shoulders so I sat agast the wall she in front of me, and massaged her neck shoulders. She moaned and groaned.
Then she says 'Can I do anything for you, like massage your back.' I thought about it and said "I'd really like to lie quietly in your bed and snuggle."
She said 'ok' and lay down next to me with her back to me. She pulls me over to her, put my lag oveer her waist, and her legs intertwined with the other. The weird part was we were looking at each other and talking. She didn't look like she had any emotions at all.
Well, we held each other for about 20 minutes. Then it was time for her to 'get under the covers and go to sleep.
So I stood up and she stayed laying there. She talked for a moment, and we were in the dark. I looked down at her face in the dark and then kneeled next to her bed. I leaned forward and kissed her on the lips. Suprisingly she didn't just give me a smack, she returned the kiss.
This was the first time I kissed her. Previous 'kissing' was during our 'friend sex'. This was a small risk but she responded.
So the 'no feelings' that were seen during th cuddle wee pretty annoying. t's amazing how they can turn off feelings.
Just jumping into your thread when I read the below quote
'They aren't going to jump back into a relationship with us. They have had a 'plan' for many months and they can't just abandon it'
I am a very similar situ with my H.... My H and I are living seperate and he works away most of the week, but he has OW ( many of them, not just the 1), and I also have a BF but for past 2 months we have started seeing each other again and seeing how we get on....
I would jump straight back in with my H tomorrow if he asked me but he just will not commit.... I have been through everything in my head, a bit like you: how long is he going to take to work out if he can commit to me or not? Is his messing me about and having his cake and eating it etc etc Is he taking me for granted, knowing I am here for him when he needs me etc etc
I understand how you feel. Its so frustrating. You go through so many different emotions all the time.. Some days you see progress and baby steps from them, then other days its like going back to square one...
All I ever say to myself is - if its working then why change it??? And if things are progressing for you Frank then why change how you are with your W? Do you keep a journal at all? Have you got anything you can look back on and see what your goals were say 2 months ago, and see how far you have come with your W so far??
If you are anything like me, I think Patience is the hardest thing... wish someone could magic up some patience pills... I think some days you do forget to look at the positive baby steps and just get fed up coz you want things to change NOW.... I know I do......
Man, I will preface this by echoing the same sentiments as Shark awhile back; please protect your heart! Now that I got that out of the way, I really think you are on to something here. Like c1t said, if it ain't broke don't fix it. YOU know what the situation is. That knowledge should help insulate you from further harm at the emotional hands of your W. I see similarities in all the WAS who begin to come around, including my W. It's that part about being SO sure they were doing the right thing (and right person, lol) for a long time that makes it really hard to do a "180" and be with us again. I have a really hard time with that idea but then again, I am still madly in love with my W and despite all she's done, I could forgive her and move on starting this minute if I needed to. It's hard to understand how they acknowledge us, and our positive changes, but that it doesn't change them immediately. After all, we are the father of their children, the one with all the years of history with them and the one they said "I do to" right? Shouldn't they only need the slightest of nudges to be willing to give us the change we deserve? Well, you and I know it's not about all that. I am over-simplifying things but you get the gist. I think you have entered a real formulate stage Frank. I think things may still be heading towards D for you but really I think neither of you know what to think or do right now so you are making it up as you go along...seems familiar doesn't it. Kinda like dating, eh? I am not sure what to think, and neither are you, but I think you have come a LONG way, and along the way, picked up enough insight and skills to be able to deal with this turn in your sitch with your best interests at heart. As we have all been told, and tell each other, live in the moment Frank.
Quote: c1t: All I ever say to myself is - if its working then why change it??? And if things are progressing for you Frank then why change how you are with your W?
How do you measure 'working'? That's the real question. Does 'working' mean just having sex, hugs? While she's waiting for something 'better' to come along? Or that we 'win by default?'
Quote: GH: Man, I will preface this by echoing the same sentiments as Shark awhile back; please protect your heart! Now that I got that out of the way, I really think you are on to something here. Like c1t said, if it ain't broke don't fix it. YOU know what the situation is. That knowledge should help insulate you from further harm at the emotional hands of your W.
Yes, I am 'on to something'. It's probably logical to say that it isn't just 'having her cake' because it's more than 'let's have sex',there are other intimacies. Although I have seen others on this board have the sex, the hugging, the snuggling, only to be left behind.
She obviously gets something from the closeness or she wouldn't sigh or make other 'comforted' sounds.
So, it is 'progressing' to somewhere. I am fearful that I'll let myself become vulnerable and then get hurt again. And, I'm finding myself falling in love with her again, a feeling I haven't felt for years, which makes it more difficult.
I think in the back of my mind that I need to detach more instead of participating in this. It's very confusing.
