Quote: Are you saying that it is impossible to be respected or disprespected purely by someone's actions?
Who makes the decision on whether another's actions are respectful or disrespectful? Is respect something to be rewarded, and is disrespect something to be punished or returned?
You cannot control how another person chooses to act or react. You cannot control whether another person decides to be respectful or disrespectful. What you do have control over is how YOU choose to act and respond. So even if someone were to treat you in a manner that you deem disrespectful, you can address the situation in a respectful manner because that is how YOU choose to be. See?
Quote: I think you are saying that my reactions to H and my anger make it possible for him to continue to treat me disrespectfully?
I dont know that it makes it possible, but it certainly does NOTHING to stop it or change it. You must ask yourself... do I want to be 'right' or do I want to solve the problem?
Quote: Truth is, I don't know how. So many boundaries have been crossed, there isn't much left but to feel pathetic and angry.
You cannot change the past no more than you can control the future. You can only control 'now.' How you choose to be and act 'now.' It does not take strength to change yourself or your life. It takes awareness. Be consciously aware of what you are doing, what you are choosing and why. If you mess up, learn from it, not beat yourself up about it. We all make mistakes. We're human. Beating yourself up about something is being a victim. Paying 'attention' to yourself, your choices, your actions... that is putting your hands on the steering wheel of your life.
Quote: But the fact is, I'm not strong enough to do that.
Again, you don't need to be strong. You just need to be aware.
Quote: I can't live with the implications of breaking apart our family, although it seems I can't live with the implications of staying either. My anger must serve a purpose for me. It somehow allows me to survive in this environment.
Well... you don't want to be there right now because it is sad and uncomfortable. Give yourself and your H a break. Rome wasn't built in a day... and you haven't even started yet on BEing Who You Are for any period of time. You have the PERFECT environment in which to practice being Who You Are... guarantee you, if you can get good at it, really become this person, where you are right now... if at some point you do end up divorced, you will have stopped a very self-destructive pattern.
Your anger is serving a purpose, yes. It justifies you not trying or making any effort over a period of time. It is self-defeating, self-destructive, and keeps you in a pool of helplessness and despair. Keeps you from being respectful, honest, dignified, etc. And it makes your H completely in control of the situation... which is actually a power play on your part. Because if you give him all the control, then you can't be to blame for being angry, for not trying... this is a very, very dangerous game to play. And believe me, I am speaking from experience. I am a PRO at power plays... stop competiting with your H. Control is an illusion. There is no power to grab. There is only what is as it is. Deal with it from the framework of Who You Are.
Quote: "I understand that you feel that alone time with us is crucial for S5. I feel that a 9pm bedtime is crucial for S5 as well. I think both are very important and I think we can do both. Let's think of some other suggestions where S5 can get alone time with you or and still get to bed by 9pm."
That's excellent. See? It's not hard at all, really. Not when you just stop yourself and think about it. You just have to stay after it and remain consistent. And there will be times when you feel angry and frustrated. But when that hits, say to your H... "you know what? I'm feeling angry and frustrated. Can you give me some time to cool down and think about this before we continue this discussion?" He may be a complete jerk. He may say, "there isn't anything to discuss. It's going to be this way." So leave and get cooled down. Address the issue when it happens again. He may SAY those things to you, but actually end up trying to work with you. Pay attention to his actions as well. Say Please. Say thank you. Be kind. You've got PLENTY of opportunities to practice.
Quote: Some days I honestly don't think that would be such a bad thing in the long run. It's the short run that I can't deal with.
It is the only place you have to effect change. Now you have solid, concrete things you can do. You are not powerless. You just have to be patient. The definition of patience, by the way, is the act of practicing empathy and tolerance. You can 'empathize' with your H acting surly and pissy because he is hurt and wants to punish you. You can tolerate this behavior until he begins to see things for himself.
And he will.
Do your best. Don't take anything personally. Concentrate on you. You can do this. I know you can.
Who makes the decision on whether another's actions are respectful or disrespectful?
I think some things are universally recognized as respectful or disprespectful (at least within the confines of one's culture). For instance, your date holds the door open and allows you to enter first. A show of respect. Your partner looks at you during a conversation and tells you 'You're a freakin idiot'. A show of disrespect. Now, I see your point that I don't have to react to that. Many good people on this board have been trying to tell me the very same thing and I am making some progress.
But it seems at some point, I need to assess the person that my H is and ask myself if I really want to stay married to someone who can call me a freakin idiot as easy as saying 'it's sunny outside today'. I know I need to act 'As If' and approach my H as though I expect him to be reasonable and rational. But history tells us things and to ignore it would be foolish. My hunch tells me if I approach the bedtime subject again, no matter how respectfully, H will roll his eyes at me and say 'Not THIS again'. But this is about changing me. So, if he says that, it's not about what he says. It will be about what I do. But my point is that if he doesn't change as well, I still have to face the choice of whether or not he is a person I can stay married to. But maybe I'm putting the cart before the horse with that line of thinking.
Is respect something to be rewarded, and is disrespect something to be punished or returned?
In my mind, yes, respect is something to be rewarded, appreciated, returned. Maybe I need to practice only positive reinforcement. If he is respectful, I reward. If he is not respectful, I walk away.
My H revealed something in our last C session that scares the heck out of me. He said he isn't uncomfortable with the way things are as long as we are 'civil' to one another. We aren't having sex. We aren't sleeping in the same bed. We don't do things together as a couple. He doesn't wear his wedding ring. How can he be comfortable?? And I feel like as long as he is comfortable, there is not a catalyst for change. I feel so stuck. The C asked him if this M was what he WANTED, and he at least said No, it's not what he wanted, but he could live with it. Maybe I'm blind to any hope, but it just didn't seem to offer much.
Thanks for the words of encouragement Corri. Sometimes I feel like I've talked myself right into a S on this board. I've written about many of my interactions with H and I think most of my friends here are stumped as to what to offer me in the way of advice. I appreciate all of you for hanging with me.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
If you have no will to live, I cannot give it to you. I can only help you if you are willing to help yourself. You can aruge with me until the cows come home. Believe me, I have used every single one of your arguments and then some... and I am one smart chick. Too smart for my own good.
In a 'do' or 'do not' situation, there is no argument. There are no excuses. There is only 'do' or 'do not.' You are still arguing, which tells me you are not yet ready to 'do.'
That is not a judgment, but an assessment of where you are. When you are read 'to do,' let me know. There will be no stopping you.
Corrie, I have read your posts to Heather and so much of it really hits home. I would like to copy and paste some, heck, most of what you have written to Heather and onto my thread and reflect upon it with my situation - I hope this is okay with you?
I think the stuff you have written is powerful and for me, emancipatory. Thanks for this.
Heather, hi. I've no advice to give, just to say that I empathize - it's the 'moments in action' eg. S5s bedtimes when it is a challenge to do the most win-win thing.
Thanks Corri, I know, I know you can lead a horse to water.... Please don't give up on me. I do want my M to work. I am going to filter my actions toward H through 'treat him as you want to be treated'. That alone could take us miles from where we are. You said it doesn't take strength to save a M, but an awareness of yourself and your actions. I believe that. Journaling here has helped give me awareness because I write more often than I would otherwise. But I still don't have enough self-awareness. Like most women, my day is so full and self-reflection does take energy. I don't think I've given it the time it deserves. I am very under the weather, but when I feel better, I do want to come out of gates running. I do. Back in October, things were going better for H and I. I think it was partly because we were talking about the future, we were talking about a house, etc. Talking about our future together . But I received a lot of caution from everyone about jumping into a new house with H when our M is in such a state. And then a conversation with H happened where he said he did not intend to kiss me ever again. And a lot of our progress went out the window, not all but a lot of it. We had a great X-mas. In February some things happened that finished off the job of tearing down our progress. I had a business dinner that H disapproved of and we had an incident about a trip to the toy store. Done. We spent over a week with him refusing to speak to me. Only now are we becoming civil again. So, be patient. Be nice. Don't take things personally. Develop an awareness of myself and my actions. Don't trade my own respect in my reactions to H. No sweat right?
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I am definitely giving something away, hence my feelings of guilt afterward. Some have attributed that to a victim's mentality, but I think you may be more correct. I am too strong to be a victim. That's why I get upset that I'm not strong enough to handle these encounters in stride. Without escalation and without anger. Truth is, I don't know how. So many boundaries have been crossed, there isn't much left but to feel pathetic and angry.
I had similar feelings, altho I didn't feel like I was too strong to be a victim, I just didn't know how to correctly handle the sitch. I felt this way b/c I wanted to handle the sitch perfectly so that I could fix W's problem. What I learned from the book "I Don't Have To Make Everything All Better", really helped me to learn how to handle these feelings. Mainly to validate W's feelings, state my boundaries kindly, gently, respectfully and firmly and that I can't own or fix her problem for her.
Be kind to yourself. Get better. You don't have to 'fix' yourself overnight. You cannot. You are learning something new.
The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.
Quote: No sweat right?
You sweat plenty walking a thousand miles. Buckets when you first start out. Then you get in shape, hit your stride, and you understand that the sweat is actually there to help keep you cool... there is rhyme and reason to it.
Hey. Got a great book for you to pick up when you are feeling better. It's called The Four Agreements, by Don Miguel Ruiz. Quick read, very simple, very profound.
Thanks Corri. I have a feeling you're going to be a real inspiration.
I am feeling some better today. The kids are on the mend as well. Hopefully tomorrow will be business as usual. Of the three of us, I am still the sickest. I guess that means I'm getting old I just wanted to say that H has been absolutely WONderful the whole time we've all been sick. He's really been great and I don't think I remember being taken care of so well by him before. I told him I really appreciate him taking care of us, but I didn't so much express my gratitude for taking care of ME in particular. These are probably the things I shouldn't hold back on huh? I will be more specific with him tonight. This has put us in a good place. I feel loving toward him for his willingness to be there for me and he seems to be responding. Hopefully we can build on it. We had to put MC on hold b/c he is working 10 hour days 6 days a week so he has no time. It will be like this for the next 3 weeks or so. Hopefully after that, we can resume MC. I'm bummed that we have to have such large gaps in between our sessions, but I guess I have to take what I can get.
Blackfoot, I am very much looking forward to your comments when you have the time to post. I'm glad you've offered your thoughts so far.
More later my friends.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I had similar feelings, altho I didn't feel like I was too strong to be a victim,
Ok, let me re-word that because it didn't come across like I meant it. I mean that I am too active of a participant in our arguments and ultracations to be considered a victim. I guess I picture victims as being passive, whereas I am more agressive than passive. Does that make sense? It sounds like that book has been a great read for you, it makes me all the more anxious to pick it up. I've never had so much trouble getting to the bookstore before The kids and I have been sick since last Friday. So, maybe I'll get there this weekend. And I'll pick up Corri's recommendation as well.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
You so sweet to come to Heathers defense. lol. Does this mean I have to fight you, before I can put my smack down on her? <crazy frenchmans voice> draw your sword, man! j/k
Heatherg. Ive been watching you and corri. She has some excellent places for you to start. VERY excellent.
I wanted to let you know Im still around, will follow up, just so busy at the moment.
Start a thread on SSM would ya? Im lazy dontchaknow. all this running around. If you do just make sure you post a line to your other threads.
Quote: Bottom line, I don't know if he's an alcoholic but I know it's caused a huge problem in our M and H is very confused as to why my feelings toward it haven't changed even though he's gotten better. I don't have an answer for that. I guess I do feel 'better', but I still hate it. I hate O'Douls just as much, I think he's still feeding his habit and it's still intrusive in our lives (i.e. if we don't have any he has to run out and get it, he smokes when he's drinking so he always has to step outside....whether it's O'Douls or Rolling Rock the ridiculous cycle is the same-from the fridge to outside to watch tv to the bathroom, to the fridge, outside, watch tv to the bathroom, and on and on).
Why did I repost this to you? What do you see in this. Whats your job as a W? euuuuwwwww gross. I said job.
