Learning to Trust Myself VI

[NYsurvivor]

He said "It's hard for me to talk!!!" I said "I know, I was asking simple yes or no questions that you could nod or shake your head...." He said "Fairly soon, there that is not a yes or no question".

I thought he just said it was hard for him to talk?

he never really told me what he wanted from me except to leave him alone about the things that bothered me, not to nag him aobut drinking or video games or how else he may have chose to spend his time other than with me...

Who was I to H? We never enjoyed doing anything together....we sometimes played board games together or watched movies. That was it. Anytime I talked to him about doing stuff together, he'd balk. Stall. Get irritated. Sleep in. Ignore me. Play video games. Drink.

Just a thought. H seems to not have these problems getting along with the kids... is it because the kids don't expect anything from him other than for him to permit them to do what they want, IOW, they don't seek him to act like a responsible adult? He's free to do whatever he wants to do when he's with them?

H wants to be a kid?

Is that why he had his tonsils out? Just kidding.

So I wonder if instead of asking him if it was time to take his medicine, if instead you had said, "Would you like some ice cream with your medicine?", if his response would've been different?

[Jabez]

H wants to be a kid?

Going back to the toy store incident, I'd say yes!

Hi Heather,
I've been reading your thred and I've really wanted to post something, but I've been all messed up with my feelings about the custody suit and now taxes. I just haven't had anything productive or constructive to say. I'm sending positive, happy thoughts your way.

~J

[heatherg]

H seems to not have these problems getting along with the kids... is it because the kids don't expect anything from him

I've thought about that before. H definitely has a problem with anyone expecting things of him....that's the exact reason he doesn't have any friends, even he will admit that. In our R, I feel like I have had to be careful about stating my needs or expectations because he will not do it just to spite me. That may or may not be reality, but that's how it feels.

H wants to be a kid?

I don't think anyone who knows H would dispute that. It's been sort of an affectionate joke within the family and he has admitted that ever since he was a kid he hated thinking about getting older. Like past 18 older.

He's a different kind of guy that's for sure.

So I wonder if instead of asking him if it was time to take his medicine, if instead you had said, "Would you like some ice cream with your medicine?", if his response would've been different?

Or, how about "With your medicine, would you like one lump or two?"

[heatherg]

Hey Jabez, I totally understand. I've been reading your thread as well and I know you've got a lot going on. Glad you stopped in just to say hi my friend.

[NYsurvivor]

Maybe there's something to this "H is a kid" theory. I mean, I like cartoons, but if I watch them, I tend to watch the more "adult" type cartoons, not kiddie cartoons. And when my kids were tiny, sure, they watched Saturday morning cartoons, but I'd also have them watch Sesame Street and other programs that were educational, and those were more interesting to me as well, rather than have my brain dribble from typical kiddie cartoon mush overload.

I recalled the term, "Peter Pan Syndrome", looked up some on the net about that and found this:

Peter Pan syndrome: Term coined by pop psychology author Dan Kiley in his book "Peter Pan syndrome: Men Who Have Never Grown Up."

The Peter-Pan psychological type is one characterized by immaturity or certain sorts of psychological, social and sexual problems. The type of male personality in question is immature and narcissistic. More completely, according to Kiley, the characteristics of a "Peter-Pan" include such attributes as irresponsiblity, rebelliousness, anger, narcissism, dependency, manipulativeness, and the belief that he is beyond society's laws and norms. According to Kiley, "Peter Pan" is the adult little boy who, when in a relationship or in seeking a relationship, acts out a need for mothering.

PPS may not, in itself, be recognized by the mental health community; however there is a psychological syndrome that embodies many of the symptoms we use here to describe PPS.

It is Dependant Personality Disorder. Persons with this disorder are described here:

"People with dependent personality disorder may exhibit a pattern of dependent and submissive behavior, relying on others to make decisions for them. They require excessive reassurance and advice, and are easily hurt by criticism or disapproval. They feel uncomfortable and helpless if they are alone, and can be devastated when a close relationship ends. They have a strong fear of rejection. Typically lacking in self-confidence, the dependent personality rarely initiates projects or does things independently. This disorder usually begins by early adulthood and is diagnosed more frequently in females than males."

Desires of the Dependant Personality include the following:

1) A yearning for a strong figure who will provide the resources for their survival and happiness (sounds like the left"s definition of government to me)

2) The need for support (ever hear of the term "entitlements"?)

3) Desiring help from other people (and if necessary, of course, that help will be forced by the penal power of government through the redistribution of wealth.)

4) Subservience and subordination (through the ceding of one"s rights for the feeling of safety)

Their desires are, of course, fear based and these fears include:

1) Feelings of helplessness (in themselves and thus projected onto others)

2) Fear of independence and having to do things for oneself (why be independent when the nanny state can take care of all one"s needs?)

3) Fear of rejection or criticism (remember the Narcissist? And what happens when he feels criticized or rejected? Uh oh.)

In the end, those with PPS/Dependent Personality Disorder wish to avoid, by any means, the world most of us know simply as adulthood. They refuse to acknowledge the need for independence and personal responsibility. They refuse to face the fact that life can be sometimes hard and mean. And, as perpetual adolescents, refuse to uphold their own duty to society.

[heatherg]

The Peter Pan Syndrome describes H more than the dependent personality. H is always sure of himself, never needs reassurance. He knows how he feels, he knows what he likes, he knows what's wrong and what's right. It's all very black and white to him, there are no in-betweens. It seems quite the opposite of dependence. But the Peter Pan thing mostly describes him except for the dependence characteristic. I ordered the book for a quick read. I don't know how much good it will do me, but at least I can picture H in green tights when he starts being mean and maybe I won't get so defensive

I've had a bad day. Last night at the stoplight a guy in the car next to me rolled down his window to tell me I looked like I was a thousand miles away. I smiled. Inside I thought "I wish".

I was reading somebody else's thread today and read a post where an LBS told a poster who'd had an affair that he couldn't say he was sorry too often. I can't remember the last time I told H I was sorry. We're so far away from where we need to be.....we're not even in a place in our R where I feel anything I say will make a difference. Nothing I do or say is good enough, I've lost the will to try I guess. I've lost the desire to put myself out there just to be shot down. He doesn't care anyway. If I thought anything I said gave him any comfort, that would be something. I don't think he cares enough to even derive any comfort from what I may or may not say. A perfect example of this is when I tried to validate about the business dinner. H waved his hand at me and walked away.....he doesn't care. Why bother trying? Why am I even here? I don't know what to say or what to do. For now I'm going to go home and face another night.

[heatherg]

Another bedtime drama with S5. H is showing S5 how to play this game that H is obssessed with-Heroscape. It is an adult game and when I say H is obssessed, I'm not really exaggerating that much. H doesn't get to play really b/c he doesn't have anyone to play with, but he buys more pieces every week and watches for sales, goes out of his way to check stores for the pieces, etc. I also found out he belongs to a bulletin board full of people who talk about their games, take pictures of their map setup and their pieces. It is totally gay if you ask me, but whatever. Can't he just buy a freakin game and play when he has time and leave it at that?

Anyway, tonight he played the game with S5. At 9:30, I call in to the kitchen..."It's 9:30 S5, it's time to go potty." Two minutes pass, they are still playing. I call out again "S5, I said it's time for bed. You need to go potty." H says "We HEARD you." I said "Well, I don't hear anyone moving." He says "That's right." I walk out into the kitchen and tell S5 he needs to go potty. H says "We only have 10 minutes left to go to finish this game." I said "H, it is 9:30, we had an agreement that 9:30 is bedtime. I don't want the kids as they get older to argue against bedtime, saying I just need 10 more minutes, or let me just finish this game, or clear this level, etc. When it's bedtime, it's bedtime. Tomorrow is a new day and you can finish the game tomorrow."

I'm so angry I can't even relay the whole thing word for word. We argued right in front of S5 about his bedtime. It was absolutely ridiculous. And because I was the one trying to enforce the bedtime, S5 goes and gets behind H. H denied that we had any kind of agreement and I said he can deny it all he wants, that doesn't make it any less true. We DID have an agreement. And he was backing down on it now. He said the bedtime is 9:30 within reason, that I should have came and checked to see how long they had left before announcing it was bedtime. I said "No, you can tell time. You should be watching the time and not starting a new round if you see it is too close to S5's bedtime." He tried to turn it back on me saying that I was starting this because I wasn't getting my way. I said this isn't about getting my way. He said 'yes it is, 100%'. I told him that it was obvious that this isn't working and that this situation is further proof that he's never going to change. I said what are you going to do about it? He said 'Well, we're kind of in a standoff now, aren't we?" I told him to do what he thinks is right, keeping in mind that we had an agreement. I walked out of the kitchen and they continued to play the game.

At some point, I got pretty evil and I mocked something he was saying and joked him about being such a 'responsible adult'. But with that being said, I did not purposely start this argument. I always have to remind them of what time it is and lately H has been going along fine when I remind them of the time. I was surprised at his stance tonight and this situation along with how he's been letting S5 keep getting up, letting him play loudly and goof around in his bed, etc., I had had enough when he insisted that they keep playing the game. He's been pushing my buttons with the bedtime and I blew. I failed at keeping my cool.

Ideally I should have went right from 'S5, it's bedtime' to telling H 'fine, if you think it's fair and for the best, then finish the game' and walked out. Everything in the middle should not have happened, certainly not in front of S5. I just get so frustrated because there is no 'boundary' that I can put around myself and enforce here. I don't have any power to make H comply with the agreement we had and I don't have a leg to stand on with trying to get S5 to stick to his bedtime when H is telling him he doesn't have to.

I made a couple crucial mistakes tonight. Fist of all, I argued in front of S5. Second, I got carried away with how far I took the argument by mocking H and sarcastically telling him he was a 'responsible adult'. Next, I stated that 'this' isn't working, meaning the M. I tend to do that quite a bit when I am so frustrated and confused about H's actions......but he sees it as me threatening to leave all the time. I can see his point. The last mistake is coming on to post. I should have went for a walk or something instead. I know this bothers him.

I don't know if a M can come back from a place like this. Certainly my H isn't going to find his respect for me in his sock drawer like something he lost but has now found.

[NYsurvivor]

Can't he just buy a freakin game and play when he has time and leave it at that?

That's his "hobby", Heather. Why let it irk you?

Another bedtime drama with S5... lately H has been going along fine when I remind them of the time. I was surprised at his stance tonight

Anything else happen earlier in the day between you two? You said you had a bad day.

He said... that I should have
I said...
He tried to turn it back on me saying...

It's these sort of interactions that you'll be bringing up to the counselor (right?) who'll then hopefully guide you both towards how to constructively resolve matters or argue effectively.

I made a couple crucial mistakes tonight.

It's good you recognize that.

[grasshopper]

Heather,

I posted earlier about my kid's bed time routines when you first brought this up. I TOTALLY understand and agree with you guys making an agreement about bed time. It has to be frustrating to see this kind of thing go on.
If it were me, the only thing I think I would do differently is to not put so much emphasis on the actual time he goes to bed, thus avoiding that trigger for you, and more emphasis on WHAT happens at bed time.
I know you have had issues with that too, but maybe being more flexible with H on the time issue, especially when it comes to playing this game, another trigger for you, would let your H see that you are willing to give on some aspects of this if he does on others. If you give a bit on the hard bed time, maybe he will give a bit on the enforcement of "it's bed time now S5, you need to go to sleep" part.
I know right now it seems like your H is just trying to find different ways to stick it to you. Maybe he is, but there is still more you can do without sacrificing your self respect or values.
Reading your account of that exchange, and I realize that a lot was lost in translation, there does seem to be a sliver of truth to the idea that you place value on being right. Of course, you WERE right, but sometimes it doesn't pay to try and force someone to see that. It makes things more complicated that you are right about a parenting issue and not just some arbitrary debate you and H are having but it doesn't diminish the fact that your H resents being called out like that.
I found when I took a hard look at myself after my W dropped the bombs, I was CONSTANTLY trying to get her to see I was right. Really, one of the first times I DIDN'T do that was during the actual bomb dropping. For the first time I just listened and did not try to prove my point that things could be fixed and there was plenty of reasons to stay in the M for her. I figured out pretty quickly that even though I may have been right, what I thought was not right for HER.
Even now, as I am aware of my propensity to always want to be right, I find myself falling to the same old trap of thinking "Yea, but I AM right!" I finally figured out that in most cases, there is no right or wrong. Right and wrong are what we make them. Of course I am not talking about universal rights and wrongs like murder or stealing, I am talking more about issues in our daily interaction with out spouses.
In this case, YOU were right about the agreement and his not owning up to it and HE was right about it not being a big issue to play the last ten minutes of the game. Does that make sense? It's all a matter of perspective and when it comes down to it, most of the time it doesn't pay to argue seriously about different perspectives.
I DON'T think you were wrong to try and enforce a mutually agreed to bed time for S5, but as you pointed out, it's all in the delivery and the extra stuff that happened because one of your triggers was squeezed.
Maybe next time, try to recognize when he's doing that and just walk away. Then discuss it with him later. That way you still get to work out your difference with him and he can't turn it around on you and say you're just trying to be "right" because you let HIM be right by NOT calling him out in the moment. Just a thought.
I also agree with NYS (big surprise) that this exchange should be fertile ground for C to help you both with these issues.
Good luck, and please take care. This is an extremely difficult and painful process that you just have to work your way through.

GH

[heatherg]

One of the great things about these boards is that I journal my situation way more than I would on paper. Sometimes I try to journal dialogue here as well because it helps me monitor progress.

So, I went back to one month ago when the bedtime was last a problem. NY, you suggested the following:

S wants to play a game at ten minutes till bedtime? And he still has get his pjs or brush his teeth... tough.

H says otherwise? You know what he's teaching him, right? Don't listen to mommy, do what you want, no responsibility.

Maybe a compromise is, want to play a game at ten minutes till bedtime? H says there's time? "Fine. But at 9 sharp, you'd best have your pjs on, have brushed your teeth, go pottied, and be in bed - and H, you make sure he is, and please, no excuses. I want a responsible parent here, and you're the parent, not S."

I may not have carried it off perfectly, especially after it became apparent that H wasn't giving in, but overall, this is what I was trying to do. You want to play the game? Fine, play the game. But bedtime is bedtime. It didn't work.

At the time, here was my reply to your suggestion:

I would love to able to say something like that to H. He'd see it as confrontational and condescending and wouldn't pay me any attention accept to tell me I'm crazy.
Your example is sort of what I tried to implement last night, except the game went on until 9:25. Part of the problem with the game (and a perfect example of how H drags it all out), I won the game. So, then S5 asked if we could play to see who comes in second. I said no, H said yes. They continued to play. But yet I'm the one who won't compromise in his eyes. He just doesn't get it and I doubt if he ever will.

He continued to play again last night. No difference, even though we were working from a 9:30 bedtime rather than a 9:00 bedtime as I had originally wanted. 9:30 WAS our compromise. H blew it last night. Actually, H said that S5 could start going potty and starting the bedtime routine at 9:15 so we could start reading at 9:30. I realize that I have let that slide over the course of this past month because I try to be as reasonable as possible and H has been fairly reasonable with sticking to his word. Until now. It lasted a whole freakin month.

One of the other stipulations for H to implement the 9:30 bedtime for S5 was that D3 HAD to be in bed at 8:30. This has been happening. I've made sure she's in bed at 8:30.

Last night while H and I were arguing about S5's bedtime, D3 got up because she had to go potty. This was a great chance for us to save face and compromise. I said, D3 has to go potty so play your game until she's done and then it's time for bed, ok? S5 said 'ok'. Now all H had to do was comply when I returned. But he wouldn't do it. When I returned, S5 changed his mind about agreeing to go to bed and H said they were going to finish the game. He was going to finish the game and that's all there is to it.

Here's another snippet from last time this was a problem:

S5 would go to bed and go to sleep if we told him to. He is old enough to understand that temper tantrums are not tolerated and it wouldn't be a problem. It's H's refusal, not S5's refusal, to cooperate with a 9:30 bedtime that is the problem.

Last night proved that yet again if you ask me.

Last time this happened, I wanted S5 to be in his bed ready to close his eyes by 9:30. H said NO WAY. H made some compromises on the bedtime routine and the best I could get him to agree to was that bedtime could start at 9:15-9:30 and we would cut some of the I Spy stuff so it wouldn't take as long. Even with all that, S5 doesn't actually lay down to close his eyes until about 10:15. Still way too late in my opinion, so when H wants to push for even just an additional 10 mins, I start to get pretty pi@@ed.

I realize it may seem like I like to be right and I do. But I don't think I let it take precedence over being reasonable and putting our R first. I am right about a 9m bedtime. But I was willing to work with the compromise if it meant that we both felt we had some say in the matter and we would get along and stick to the agreement.

Even last night I don't think my adrenaline would have spiked quite as quickly or as high as it did if H would not have said "that's right" when I said I said I didn't hear anyone moving. It was a dismissive statement intended to shut me up and let me know that although things might be straying from our new norm, he was in control of the situation not me.

I did a lot wrong. But in truly monitoring the progress in our M, what I did wrong in the situation may have escalated the issue, but the issue was there. The fact that we had the same problem yet again, has nothing to do with my reaction. My reaction came later. I can beat myself up about my reaction or I can face the fact that NOTHING is changing!!!!