Learning to Trust Myself VI

[heatherg]

Ok, I thought about changing the title of my thread because I can see myself getting to Learning to Trust Myself 5,687.....once I get to a certain point I'll have to stop using roman numerals because I'm not that smart.

But, learning to trust myself is apparently a very long process and I haven't mastered it yet. So, onward with my thread title.

I can't believe I got locked out after not even 8 full pages. What is up with that? Some people's threads have gone on to page 11. Hmm.

Why is it up to him to let you go? This is your life, not his.

I know. I guess I just mean that if we would actually make a real choice instead of just making me so miserable that I'm the one who ends up making the choice, then it would be a mutual agreement and maybe cooperation would come more easily. In my eyes, to separate really is his decision. I may be the one who ultimately moves out, but it's not what I want....it would only be because I felt I had no other options. If I just up and leave, I truly feel that this would be practically a life long battle. If he would just admit to himself that things can't go on this way, maybe we could decide on the course of action together.....

See, the problem is that when people are so bent on having to see things happen in a manner according to their vision, they get upset even when things are OK.


I worry that this was me before my A. Our major issues back then were control issues with S5 (even though I didn't realize they were control issues then I just thought I wasn't a good Mom), H's drinking (which got better over the years), the pornography (which I expressed my hurt about to no avail), and the fact that I wanted to spend more alone time together and nurture our R (which I also expressed and was told I was selfish and would never be happy with anything). Other than that, I loved H's family and he loved mine. We had great family outings, our kids were happy. We would snuggle and watch movies. He would tuck me in every night. He would always get my drinks and open the doors for me. Ultimately, I only saw the things that were wrong and felt disposable. Would H open the doors for whatever woman he happened to pick in life? I believe he would have. What the he!! made me so special? Nothing as far as I could tell. But geez, to go out and have some affair with some strange creepy looking guy??? WTH was I thinking? It is really hard for even me to forgive me, I can't begin to imagine how H feels.

in the meantime, you gave up doing the dinner, which makes you feel happy or resentful, I wonder...

Neither really. If I had a choice, obviously I would rather have spent the evening with my kids. So that was the upside of not going, I got to do what I really wanted. The downside was that I had a responsibility to my boss that I bowed out on. And H never even said thank you. That fact does actually make me a little ticked.

what I would try is to drop everything, and I mean everything. Stop. Don't do anything anymore. Nothing. Nada. Zero. Zilch. Let him put the kids to bed. Let him get them ready in the morning. Let him fix dinner, let him take out the garbage, let him do it ALL. No pointing anything out to him. Tell him you give up. He argues against your participation and responsibility, so... see what happens when the onus is completely on him being responsible for it all.

I have done this some. The house is a Wreck. Notice the capital W, because it is truly warranted. There are toys everywhere, you cannot walk in our living room. I have made no effort to pick them up. I heard H tell the kids yesterday that we are having his family over for a 'Superbowl Party' today. I'm not cooking anything, I'm not cleaning anything. He refuses to speak to me, he goes down in his room after the kids are in bed and watches tv down there. This is miles from where we were. We were actually watching movies together and getting along very well. Until the toy store night. Even after that, I didn't let it affect me for more than a couple days. There's nothing I could do about it and I knew I had to let it go. But he is not speaking or interacting with me and I guess it's all about the business dinner, even though I didn't go. He knows I would have gone if he wouldn't have had to work, so he's still justified in being angry with me I guess.

As far as the caretaking of the kids goes, I mentioned in one of my last posts on my previous thread that primary caretaker is an important role in considering custody and I don't know that right now is the time to let him assume that role. What do you think? Although, if he refuses to let me take them to daycare next week, it will happen by default.

I leave this Thursday for Utah for my sister's retirement ceremony. I reminded H this morning. I said "Remember I leave for Utah Thursday." He said "No, I didn't remember that". Even his mother remembered...yesterday she mentioned it while we were at lunch. H just doesn't give a damn, he refuses to even remember important things in my life. You might remember he also forgot the business dinner...calling me at quarter to five that evening to tell me I needed to pick up the kids, claiming to have forgotten about my dinner even though I had just reminded him that morning. Anyway, my guess is he's not going to get any nicer with the Utah trip coming up....if the business dinner wore on his nerves, I can only imagine how he feels about a trip out of state without him. He has not offered to take me to the airport and when I asked him to pick me up on Sunday when I get home, he said no because it is his nephew's birthday party. But he doesn't even know what time the birthday party is but says it doesn't matter because it will be too inconvenient to come to the airport from where his sister lives. I cannot dispute that it would be an inconvenience, it would. I could not get an earlier flight. As it is, we will have to leave for the airport at 5am Sunday morning in order for me to get in at 5pm. I didn't want to miss nephew's birthday either and planned to go out there as soon as I fly in. I'll have to ask my brother to drop me off on Thurs and pick me up on Sunday. If he can't I will take a cab.

H has his tonsils out Friday, Feb 17. I had taken the day off to take him and be with him. That would be the wifey thing to do and it's what I wanted to do at the time because we were actually acting like we had some sort of R. Now, I don't know what the he!! I'm supposed to do.

[heatherg]

I'm getting by ok. My mood has been mostly neutral these last couple of days, which is really good. I wish I was happy, but neutral is better than miserable and it's better than irritable where I might react to H.

His family came over tonight. At first, I felt really awkward and I just sort of stayed out of everyone's way. After a half hour or so, I felt more at ease and made some conversation. I have absolutely no idea how they feel about any of this, so it makes me uneasy sometimes. I feel very territorial when they walk down the hallway or enter 'H's room'. Since it has become H's room, he's opened it up to the kids when they come over and they play on the bed, etc. So the adults just walk back and forth past the bedrooms and I don't like it that they can see I'm still not in my own room. My life is like an open book in that respect I guess. Tonight I even referred to the room as 'his room' in front of his family, not on purposes, it just sort of came out. It's what I've come to think of it as I guess.

H and the kids took a nap this afternoon and I went out shopping. I just sort of do my own thing...floating along. Tonight I gave his hat a playful tap, I called toward the end of my shopping trip to see if his family was there yet, if the kids were up and to let him know where I was and that I'd be home shortly.

Nothing stays the same forever. His attitude will change. I just have to wait it out. And hope that this is all part of the process, the ups and downs of sticking it out.

Separation really cannot be mentioned again until I'm 100% sure it's what I'm going to do. He needs to feel secure that I'm not thinking about walking out the door every time we don't get along. Meanwhile, I live half my life imagining what it would be like without him and envisioning myself alone and half my life desperately trying to fix my M. But the thoughts about separtion have to be kept to myself.

I'm curious to see how tomorrow is going to go with daycare. He's had a couple days to cool down since I asked the kids if they wanted Daddy to take them to daycare Friday. Maybe he'll have calmed down. It's really hard to say. I'm acting As If. Washing their blankets and putting them in my car as usual, setting my alarm for the usual time.

Wish me luck.

[heatherg]

This morning, was fine, I took the kids to daycare as usual. That's good, a total surprise though. Maybe I was wrong to jump to conclusions or maybe the weekend to cool off was a help or maybe the fact that he is working far out the way this week is a factor. Who knows. The important thing is that the matter was not escalated.

Friday night, I said to H "Clearly you're not happy with me. Do you want to talk about it?" He said "No." I said "You don't want to tell me what is I've done that's made you so upset?" He said "I don't want to talk about it." I said ok and I watched a movie. I don't know what more I can do except wait for him to come out of this mood.

[heatherg]

Floating along, nothing has changed. H still isn't speaking to me. Anything I say to him he disregards, even if I'm saying 'thank you'....he just gets that dismissive look on his face and waves his hand at me or rolls his eyes at me. Last night I said "Can't you just say you're welcome??"

For the most part, he hasn't been getting to me. So, this morning it seems he tried harder. I asked him to brush S5's teeth and he completely ignored me. I brushed them while he continued to sit on the couch and snuggle. I like getting my kids ready and taking care of them, it's just that H insists on getting in my way and slowing down the process just to irritate me. And OMG, does it ever irritate me. This morning when he ignored me, all I said was "This is getting old" meaning his attitude.

Our first MC session is scheduled for the 13th. I would be pretty surprised if he still comes. It seems to me he has already made up his mind, but I know he will blame it on me. Because I went to a session alone or because I planned to go to that business dinner or because I am going to UT. Who knows exactly why, probably all of the above.

Right now, I'm trying to stay calm, not to let him get to me. I'm being pleasant, saying things to him, telling him things that don't require an answer. Trying to show him that I can still be me and still be relatively happy even if he chooses to be an a@@. I will not initiate any R talk, none. Unless he brings it up, I am finished talking. Talking has gotten me nowhere. If on the slim chance he brings it up, I will listen only. And then cut it short if he starts being disrespectful, which I give him all of 10 minutes.

That's my plan. I have put all my books away so he cannot see them. I am currenly reading "Back from Betrayal" which is a book written by a betrayed woman whose marriage was repaired and I think he did see that book. I'm trying to keep my current ones hidden, but that's not very feasible. At least my old ones are put away so it no longer looks like I have a library of self help books. I also am going to try not to update or read this BB at night while I'm home. I do this right out in our living room to be transparent to him so he doesn't think I'm doing anything wrong, but the downside to that is that he may feel uncomfortable. Sort of like two people whispering in a room while another is present....they could be whispering about the weather, but chances are that person will be convinced the other two are whispering about her/him. I think it might actually be rude to do this in front of him and I hadn't really considered that before. I'll just post during the day.

I am wearing my rings. Being as pleasant as I can be. Giving him as much space as I can. Not talking about fixing our R nor about leaving. Loving my kids. Going to karate. Working. Reading. That is my typical life and lately anything outside of that has gotten me into trouble with H, such as my business dinner and my trip to Utah. Oh well.

Thanks for listening.

[NYsurvivor]

Oh, Heather, boy do I feel for you.

nothing has changed. H still isn't speaking to me. Anything I say to him he disregards, even if I'm saying 'thank you'....he just gets that dismissive look on his face and waves his hand at me or rolls his eyes at me. Last night I said "Can't you just say you're welcome??"

Well we know what that's all about. It's control, dismissing you, being contemptuous. Have you tried setting a boundary there such as stating that you feel as if he's dismissing you rudely when he does that? Yeah, I suspect if you do H will turn it around it around on you somehow, but if you stay focused on your topic, "I Feel Dismissed When You Do That", can you throw blocks at his attempts to get you engaged in his tangents?

he hasn't been getting to me. So, this morning it seems he tried harder.

Good. He's fighting to bring the dynamics back to where they were. Keep it up, don't give in. Let him fight harder to no avail and maybe he'll give it up. Maybe.

S5's teeth and he completely ignored me. I brushed them while he continued to sit on the couch and snuggle. I like getting my kids ready and taking care of them, it's just that H insists on getting in my way and slowing down the process just to irritate me.

Keep in mind my suggestion about not doing anything to help at all and dumping everything but everything in H's lap by default. It may go against what you feel and wish to do, or what sounds like what you think may work, but that's the nature of the 180. It's time to try something way different. What I'm suggesting is a way to passively create a void that H may feel the need to step up to the plate and fill. If you're doing most of the work as you are now, it leaves little or nothing for him to do but gives him all the opportunity to do what he's currently doing to be an obstacle. Time to shake that up. Take a leap of faith.

Our first MC session is scheduled for the 13th. I would be pretty surprised if he still comes. It seems to me he has already made up his mind, but I know he will blame it on me. Because I went to a session alone or because I planned to go to that business dinner or because I am going to UT. Who knows exactly why, probably all of the above.

Yes, that's very probable considering that's his pattern, to shift blame to you for his actions. Considering though that your marriage fairly sucks, if it's OK for me to make that kind of an assessment, if he doesn't seek to try and improve it at this point by this genuinely valid suggestion of going to see a MC, that tells you something big time, I'd think.

Heather, there are some people with whom one cannot have a relationship with. He might be one of those people.

Trying to show him that I can still be me and still be relatively happy even if he chooses to be an a@@.

Good.

I am finished talking. Talking has gotten me nowhere.

Because talking to him doesn't work, that's not the way to reach him.

And then cut it short if he starts being disrespectful

Good.

Loving my kids. Going to karate. Working. Reading. That is my typical life

Nothing wrong with having a "typical" life. Find more things to fill it with.

Friday night, I said to H "Clearly you're not happy with me. Do you want to talk about it?" He said "No." I said "You don't want to tell me what is I've done that's made you so upset?" He said "I don't want to talk about it." I said ok and I watched a movie. I don't know what more I can do except wait for him to come out of this mood.

He's possibly avoiding and/or controlling you by giving you the cold shoulder.

[Jabez]

Heather, I sense from your posting that your are frustrated and disappointed.

nothing has changed Your monitoring the sitch. Good.

For the most part, he hasn't been getting to me. . .all I said was "This is getting old" You were in control of your reaction to H's actions. Good.

Our first MC session is scheduled for the 13th. I would be pretty surprised if he still comes. Even though there is a history, to support your prediction, you don't know what's going to happen on Monday, so don't waste energy stewing about it today.

Right now, I'm trying to stay calm, not to let him get to me. It sounds like you're doing a good job of this.

I think it might actually be rude to do this in front of him and I hadn't really considered that before. It's good to try to see our actions from our S's point of view. It keeps us honest and thinking outside our box.

I am wearing my rings. . . Giving him as much space as I can. Doing your thing, not playing the game and not taking the bait. Good for you.

Heather, you are one tough cookie. There were some better times just recently, take some energy from them. I hope that H does go to the counseling. Don't let him drag you down. Passively drag him up to you.

[heatherg]

Have you tried setting a boundary there such as stating that you feel as if he's dismissing you rudely when he does that?

I don't think I ever have. I mean, it's seems so obvious that is the reason he does it-to dismiss me, it would almost be funny for me to say that. Maybe that's me assuming I know what his intentions are? It seems everything I say to him can't elicit the same exact response unless he was trying to tell me something with the response itelf. I feel like he would look at me and say "DUH!!!!"

Considering though that your marriage fairly sucks, if it's OK for me to make that kind of an assessment, if he doesn't seek to try and improve it at this point by this genuinely valid suggestion of going to see a MC, that tells you something big time, I'd think.


Yeah, I've thought about that. About what hope there is left if he declines counseling. Ugh.

Nothing wrong with having a "typical" life. Find more things to fill it with.

Definitely not, I just meant that if anything I do happens to stray from my typical life, it seems to cause friction with H. I've been in karate for over a year now and he still hasn't accepted that as a normal part of my life. I can reasonably expect that anything else I may find to do with my typcial life will cause problems, particularly if it involves being out of the house.


Well, I'm off to Utah. I'll be back Monday. Hope everyone has a great weekend.

[Jabez]

Hi Heather,

How was Utah? More importantly, how was home today?

~J

[heatherg]

Hey Jabez, thanks for checking in! Utah was awesome...the moutains were spectacular and being there for my sister was even better. We had a great time, I met her friends that I hear about so often. We had a blast.

While I was gone, I called home everday to talk to the kids obviously, but I also updated H on what we were doing even though he didn't respond or say anything. He never called me, never said one word more than he had to when I called him. He never asked how I got to the airport, how I was getting home from the airport or what time my flight was coming in.

Yesterday was our first MC session. Sunday night I told him the session was at noon and he started to respond by rolling his eyes, but I didn't stick around. I walked away without saying anything and went to bed. I thought to myself, if he comes he comes if he doesn't he doesn't. As I was sitting in the waiting room I knew if he didn't show there was nothing else to help us and all would likely be lost. The message he would have sent by not coming was loud enough that I would not have been able to ignore. But, alas, he showed. We had an interesting session, I was surprised at how much talking H did. Gladly surprised. She wants us to come every week and I think that is best. However, H has his tonsils out this Fri and will be down for a week. Our next appt is Mon, Feb 27. And that will be good only if H doesn't have to go out of town that Monday. We'll see.

I don't know if counseling can help us. I know it won't if we can't go regularly. I feel like the gap is just becoming too big, the changes he'd have to make are too great. And he doesn't see any change in me worth anything, so I don't know what more I can do for him. I will probably journal a little about our counseling session later, I need to try to create a record of what we talked about, etc. so I will be able to monitor progress or lack thereof.

Thanks for thinking of me!

[koshka]

Heather,

Glad you had a good trip. Now that you're safely at home, let me bring out the two-by-four.

I don't know if counseling can help us

You don't know that it won't, either.

I feel like the gap is just becoming too big, the changes he'd have to make are too great.

Don't worry about the changes he has to make just yet. Focus on something else, like the fact that he went, and he talked a lot. How many guys wouldn't go? How many folks right here suspected that your H wouldn't go? I know I wasn't confident, based on his track record.

And he doesn't see any change in me worth anything, so I don't know what more I can do for him.

It's not your job to do anything for him. Do for yourself. You deserve the best you can do. Do for your kids (while they're kids). They legitimately need guidance and support. Do for your M. It's living and needs care. But H can do for himself what he needs for himself. It's part of being a grown up in a relationship.

I will probably journal a little about our counseling session later, I need to try to create a record of what we talked about, etc. so I will be able to monitor progress or lack thereof.

Excellent idea! I think I read about something like that once, in a book called "Divorce Remedy" or some such.

Heather, some people save their marriages and go on to much better relationships with their S than they had even believed was possible. You and H might be two of those people. It's not over yet, and you can't know how the MC will work out unless you put all of what you can give to it into it. It is possible that H won't work at it. I spent two years in MC with XW who admitted at the end that she didn't work at it (and MC agreed with her). But I came out of that knowing that I did what I could, even when I wasn't a perfect DBer (which was quite often!), I still kept trying.

Keep trying. You're not out of the woods yet, but you're not out of the game yet, either. Look at the positives. Keep taking care of yourself, like with the karate. And maybe get back to your writing, whether you share it with H or not, just for the pleasure it gives you.

Thanks,

Joe