and yeah, in case anyone forgot to mention it today, this sucks.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Actually no, get out the crystal ball, place your bets...on who is mine and Blondie's very secret Valentine!!
Just came home from running around and picking up Blondie. As we pulled in the driveway Blondie yelled, Stop, there's something sticking out of the mailbox! So we drive around and sure enough there is a large gift bag schmushed inside barely hanging on for life. She grabs it, we come in the house. Inside are some tshirts for her (one of them says Natural Blonde, so this person knows her!) and a box of chocolate apparently and assuming here for me, because they happen to be my favorite chocolates in the world. Only a handful of people (if even THAT) know about my favs and well let's just say someone would have to go through a helluva lot of trouble to get them here (having them shipped from Cali!)...so inquiring minds wanna know...WTF is going on here. No card, nada...just plain strange.
GH, what do you see in the crystal ball of yours now?
Well, things just got much worse and better (maybe) at the same time. Phone call to W as I am leaving the mall (got her PJ's from Victoria's Secret, a sure hit). I told her my phone was off and asked if she tried to call...
W: Yes. I am not going out tonight.
M: Ok (relieved).
W: I am going out tomorrow night though.
M: (WTF!!!!!!) Ok, um....
W: I know what you're thinking. "She's going on a date on valentines day." It's not like that. I am not going to dinner with anyone. I am not doing anything like that.
M: Ok. Understand that this is my worst nightmare.
W: I know. I know what it looks like and I can't help that. There were only two days I could go out, or want to go out, and this happens to be one of them. I can't help it if it's Valentines day.
M: You're right, it does look like that.
W: Well, I can't make you believe me.
M: I have chosen to believe you up to this point...
W: You know, it's not easy on my side.
M: (Huh?) What do you mean.
W: I know I look like the ass here but it's hard for me. (important part) Things are complicated. They are out of control and I am trying to take care of it but I am not willing to lose friends over it right now. It's difficult.
M: I understand that. I know it can be hard. I really do. We're both adults here...
W: I know that...
M: So if you want to just talk to me about this without all the code words, you can. I will not condem you, I will just listen. If it would make you feel better, then I am ok with it. I know it would make me feel better if you confided in me (oops...but didn't seem to register).
W: No, I'm ok. I will talk to you later. I am trying to drive.
M: Ok. You said things were out of control. If there is anything you need help with, you can tell me.
W: No, it's ok.
M: Alright.
Wow. So things are getting muddy in the nice green grass. Either that or she's lying her a$$ off and doing one helluva job. I am choosing the later.
I am really floored. I truly don't know how I am going to do tomorrow night. My W out with someone else on V day. I am going to need a lot of help.
We just had an interesting mini-talk brought on my her asking me if I had made any "new friends" lately. I told her not really and said "I assume you mean women." She said yes. I said no, I would not do that.
She then asked who I talk to then. She said she remembered my mentioning the support group (here) but who else. I said my C, my boss at work and you all. She just sat there. I added that everyone I talk to is supportive of my marriage and me.
So I asked her who she talks to. She said "friends". So I asked her if they knew she was married. She said they all did. It was out in the open.
Wow. So this from the woman who didn't want to tell anyone.
So I called her on that. She seemed to think that because I didn't know them and they didn't know me, that it was ok that they knew. Um...sure.
So a few more things were said along that line and she said she just asked a question and it turned into this big thing.
I said I was only taking the opportunity to talk to her about this because she rarely offers to do so. She said she didn't because it seemed like rubbing it in.
Ok. Fine.
So don't think I did well or awful here. I validated and empathized some, and did other stuff (oops).
I know I pushed but it was obvious she was asking more that "did I meet any new friends". She wanted to know if I had met any women, and she confirmed that after a few questions.
What is going on here? It seems important but I don't know.
What I do know is that tomorrow is going to be a hellacious rollercoaster ride.
There was more but I am a little frazzled right now and what is here is the gist of things. I will post more later. Please, opinions?
Sorry to hear that GH. I think "It's complicated" means that she's involved. Perhaps the OM gave her a real hard time about not seeing him for V-Day, and she still doesn't want to lose him.
AS for the rest of your talk...
her asking me if I had made any "new friends" lately. I told her not really and said "I assume you mean women." She said yes. I said no, I would not do that.
Start going out with friends and do not give her any details. Let her imagine whatever while you go out and have some good times with friends or make new friends.
BTW, I imagine the speculation is that she wanted to know if you're getting into the dating pool so maybe she won't feel so bad about you not having female companionship... but without doing a proper Vulcan Mind Meld on her, it's just spec.
She then asked who I talk to then. She said she remembered my mentioning the support group (here) but who else. I said my C, my boss at work and you all. She just sat there. I added that everyone I talk to is supportive of my marriage and me.
All that may look like to her is that you're finding people to be on your "side". Don't offer details about who you speak to.
Wow. So this from the woman who didn't want to tell anyone.
So she changed her mind. No big deal. Last I remember, people do things like that.
So I called her on that. She seemed to think that because I didn't know them and they didn't know me, that it was ok that they knew. Um...sure.
Makes sense to her, and that's all that counts.
So a few more things were said along that line and she said she just asked a question and it turned into this big thing.
I said I was only taking the opportunity to talk to her about this because she rarely offers to do so. She said she didn't because it seemed like rubbing it in. Ok. Fine.
Two people can view the same thing differently. That's her viewpoint, it doesn't mean she's right or wrong, it's just a different viewpont than yours. Respect that, and maybe take a cue from it too.
I know I pushed but
"But"?
My W out with someone else on V day. I am going to need a lot of help.
Careful here. This becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, understand? You're setting yourself up to expect to feel lousy tomorrow. It's just a day, and it will pass in 24 hours. It's just one little blip in time. And for all you know, OM's pushiness and demands on her, if that's what's happening, may just be further seed for his ultimate demise. Now the bad news: Damn, I lost five bucks.
Well all I heard after that line was blah blah...I'm throwing the towel in here. I was just there shopping for PJs a couple of weeks ago for my pending trip to NYC where I would share a hotel room with not only NYer but my best friend. Let's just say I picked up a few things there for the couple of days I stayed with NYer but had to go somewhere else to find something a bit more modest for the hotel stay.
VS is an incredible store, a dangerous place to take me shopping. A gift from VS is generally given by a lover or an H where there is intimacy, I question/hesitate the appropriateness of it being given by an H who hasn't ML to his W in sometime. A gift from VS is something for both people to enjoy...I mentioned a few posts back not to pick her up anything from there, I just think it is too personal for where you are at this point. I would compare it to my getting a gift from VS from one of my guy friends. Just not acceptable. But then again, stranger things have been known to happen to me lately.
But at this point I'm handing this thread over to the men!! Ya'll sort this one out!!
I'd have to agree with NYS and S&S. You need to back way the hell off, NOW. Your posts have become more and more obsessive and detached from reality. You are in a relationship with a woman that you cannot even ask if she is dating or sleeping with others. This is not an intimate relationship. Take the crowding, invasive, presumptious VS stuff back.
Quit being more in the relationship than she is. GIVE HER MORE SPACE THAN SHE WANTS. Along with everything else she tells you, why didn't you tell her that you obsess about her 24/7 and make up elaborate stories upon which you then condemn her anytime she is out of your sight.
This is not a time to try to rebuild, question, or even understand her. IF she begins an intimate relationship with you, then those things are relevant. Do you question people at work like that when they change their minds?
Now, as for your grilling her (yes, you were). She is right, IMHO, you were attacking her, in an especially nasty passive aggressive manner. Why not just say, "gee, hon. you are right. I am very angry over this whole thing and I was being a little needling. That's not going to help anyone."
Do NOT give her a gift. She said she did NOT want to exchange gifts. She has regretted her decision and changed her mind about spending V-day with you. Do NOT give her a card AT ALL. MOST ESPECIALLY do not give her a card in which you try to write a few elegant lines that will move her and cause her to change her actions. Give her cards from your kid(s). If you must.
Make plans for V-Day. Go out to dinner and a movie, go to a friend's house. Just tell her, I'm going out and the kids will be with me or at so-and-so's. GAL. You are coming off so needy, clingy, clenchy, and desparate both when you are up and down that it is unhealthy for you to continue to totally sacrifice yourself here.
She doesn't share info with you, why are you sharing info with her?
Also, note you have NO idea what she is doing tomorrow. Maybe she is getting laid. Maybe she is breaking up with someone. Maybe she is going to an AA meeting. You have no control over that.
YOUR CHOICE is to stay and tolerate a period of uncertainty, dishonesty, betrayal, withdrawal, craziness, and selfishness, OR NOT. That is YOUR CHOICE. You have made it because you feel that the genuine risk that things will not get better, but worse, is worth it because you are willing to endure that to save your marriage. This is admirable, but only insofar as you accept it as your choice and accept the responsibility for the day to day pain you continue to CHOOSE to expose yourself to. Quit being a martyr. Get a life. Do not think at all about W. Thought stop any thought you have of her for a week or two to start. Make all your plans and choices independent of her. Designate your days of the week for going out, AND USE THEM.
I would also seriously consider withdrawing from the Ireland trip. Why would you put yourself through the pain and humiliation of living a lie? Treat yourself better for F's sake. Do you thrive on the drama of being the tortured soul? Get away from it. Sleep elsewhere. Set your own schedule. WTF is with totally being on her schedule when she constantly changes it and takes advantage of it. Be in the house. Be a decent parent with her. Live independently. Get your own life, set your own agenda. Post in JFF and find some DBers to go to Chuckie Cheese (nooooooo!) with for V-day.
You must stop obsessing and pushing and take care of yourself. Sorry that this is so blunt. It is frustrating to look from the outside and see DBers chasing their tales, and even being encouraged by others who at the same time are telling you to detach, but eager for any scrap of hope they might glean on anyone's thread.
Set some boundaries. She has her nights out and her days free. But, you should have a reliable way to contact her at all times, she should be responsive if you do so (though you should do so ONLY IN EMERGENCY NOT OUT OF EMOTIONAL NEEDINESS), and she should be reliable about when she will be home. If she tries to make plans with you, tell her no, you are unwilling to make plans with her because she continues to change them at the last minute which hurts you and you respect yourself more than that. Or, tell her that that will be the consequence the next time she abrupty changes plans.
If it pains you to be aware of her being on the phone in the garage, then remove yourself from it. When she heads that way, tell her it won't be necessary and head out yourself with your cell phone in case of emergency. Go shoot pool. Go to the gym. Indeed, go to the gym and develop some workout buddy friendships. Go to a strip club if you must. Do something to occupy your time.
Drop the passive agressive martyring line. Pretty unattractive, and very unhealthy.
I really think you are doing great and becoming a stronger person. I know that you are a wonderful, compassionate, passionate, loving man or you wouldn't be here and you wouldn't be such a good friend to your fellow DBers. But, this V-day thing has gotten you quickly into a downward spiral that is sucking you dry. Get out of it.
Make your own sweet, special Valentine with a picture of you and your child (per child) and give it to each of your children with a frame. Take them for ice cream and tell them that you love them very much. Cherish the wonderful intimate relationships that you have right now, and thought-stop the others out of your mind.
If she asks what is up, just be honest. Tell her you've reached your limits and must set some boundaries to respect your feelings. You insist on treating yourself with the love and concern that you deserve.
I know I sound harsh, but as an old DBer, I have a huge amount of respect and appreciation for the really wonderful person you are. Treat yourself as that person deserves to be.
Hold on a second. You are ALL jumping to conclusions. The VS PJ's I got her were her baggy, cotton sleep wear she wears EVERY night to sleep in. It was the most innocuous thing I could get her and still be something nice. In OUR life, VS PJ's DO NOT REPRESENT anything intimate or romantic. Trust me. Geez people. I am a little smarter than that. I did not get her a silk nighty to have a romp in. If you want to come down on my for my reaction to the V day date, then fine, but lay off on the gift. It's not what you thought.
Hey, I didn't happen to mention your gift. I felt left out, but now I don't anymore now that you've counted me in. Maybe you shouldn't be giving a gift, anyway, you know, all things considered?
Oldtimer, good post... just curious... how long have you been in your sitch?
Actually, I didn't think you bought her the crotchless panties. But clothing of any sort, and especially from VS (I'm assuming now that you would use their packaging and leave the tags on), is intimate.
Perhaps you might try the following rule for now: If you wouldn't buy it for your boss, don't buy it for her. Now, exactly what Vday gift would you buy for your boss that wouldn't seem invasive and presumptious?
