I have been thinking a lot lately about how to keep happy and how to detach from someone who is not happy. Some of this is in relation to Stig's long post in reply to Landica which I feel has a lot of bearing on my own sitch.
H is not happy – hasn’t been happy in many a long year and for many a long year has been trying to make it my problem that he is not happy. I have gone along with this in my Mrs Fixit mode and spent a lot of time and effort wondering how he can be happy.
He could start with the basics Stop drinking too much Eat more healthily Get some exercise
He could then move on to quitting the negative self-talk, not taking everything personally etc etc.
All this would be good. But all this is NOT MY PROBLEM and I have to train myself to believe it is not my problem and to stay happy regardless of his moods. Since I began DBing I have been working on not criticising, detaching and GAL, but there is and always has been resentment on his part when I appear to continue blithely on with my life “ignoring” is problems and not letting his misery get to me.
I am a naturally happy person (just lucky that way). Friends have mentioned that they find me positive. I get comments like – “You’re always such a glass half-full person”, “You’re so strong”, “I like the way you can be guaranteed to see the positive side”, “You always see the good in people”, “Trust you to see the funny side” etc.
H seems to manage to place a negative gloss on these traits by making “glass half full” become “self-satisfied” “Strong” become “over-bearing” or “insensitive” “See the positive” become “over-optimistic or simplistic” “Seeing the good in people” become “bad judge of character” “Seeing the funny side” become “flippant”
How is it that you can purport to empathise with someone, care about them, even love them if you cannot get into their misery. If their misery has to be theirs to own and theirs to live with/fix. I feel that in the last few years since I have been detaching it is like we live our lives on two parallel tracks. I am on the sunny side of the street and he is on the shady side. Do I just carry on regardless on the sunny side and hope one day he will have the sense to cross the street? The more I try to do that it seems the angrier he becomes, notices that I am living a separate life and accusing me of not giving a sh!t about him.
I want to raise the happiness bar for both of us, but if I can’t do that I sure as hell don’t want him lowering my happiness bar.
Thoughts anyone?
Fran <--- me being positive
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Personally, I don't think YOU can raise the happiness bar for both of you. You can only do that for yourself, as you said...he owns his unhappiness....it's up to him to raise the bar for himself.
I believe at some point you have to stop empathizing and sympathizing if he chooses to not make changes to make himself happy.
Haphazard, you do realize don't you that he's getting angry at you because you aren't enabling his behavior. You are doing what you need to in order to take care of yourself, as you should, and not allowing him to drag you down with him....this is great for you (and it's what you need to do), but he won't like it....because as I said, you are discontinuing being his enabler.
That is why I say....YOU cannot raise the bar for both of you. If he chooses to live in misery, you have no control over that...but you do have control over what you do.
Quote: Haphazard, you do realize don't you that he's getting angry at you because you aren't enabling his behavior. You are doing what you need to in order to take care of yourself, as you should, and not allowing him to drag you down with him....this is great for you (and it's what you need to do), but he won't like it....because as I said, you are discontinuing being his enabler.
I am beginning to get this. Didn't have a clue before just thought I must be a horrible person.
If I stop enabling - which I know I have to - the difficult part is understanding that if he doesn't pull through on his own there's really nothing I can do. Getting my head around the fact that detaching and not enabling isn't a fix. It's just knowing that all other options are hopeless and I will drown in his misery unless I swim for it. I fear however that I will strike out for the shore on my own and either he will drown (sink into alcoholism or whatever) or else head for a different shore of his own.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Unfortunately....there is a real possibility that you two will end up on opposite shores. BUT...you must take care of yourself, you cannot let him suck you into his misery. Regardless of the other options you must stop enabling his behavior...you don't realize that don't you?
Remember if you do strike out for shore, and he either sinks back into alcoholism or strikes out for the opposite shore....this is not YOUR doing, it's his own....it's his choice. Now that part that would really suck (and I know this my XH did this to me) would be if he chooses to sink into alcoholism over being happy with you. That's where it gets personal, or at least it feels personal towards you. I remember just like it was yesterday the day I told my XH if he didn't stop drinking I was gone....he didn't stop. He chose alcohol over me and that really hurt. But you know what? I did what was best for me, I couldn't save him if he didn't want to be saved....but I could save ME. I did and I'm so happy I did.
I understand that you love him, but try to keep in mind that sometimes it takes drastic action to get someone to snap out of it. That's one way to look at swimming for that shore. If he chooses to stay and wallow while you swim, or he strikes out for the opposite shore...and you two end up being apart, he may come to a point where he truly begins to miss you....and then sees he has to do something drastic in his life to get you back.
My XH had his last drink the day I walked out the door....FWIW.
-- Cheers, Hap. To make a short story long....LOL. Bear with me. Head full of octagonal red traffic signs and general brain overclocking causing me to flood gate open/brain stream lately...
Hmm, what are the "stop" signs in UK? Last time I was in London I only remember always turning my head to watch for traffic and always getting it backwards. Look right--car zooms by from left. Look left at next crossing, lorrie barreling from my right. Bollocks! Bloody hell....
H is not happy – hasn’t been happy in many a long year and for many a long year has been trying to make it my problem that he is not happy. I have gone along with this in my Mrs Fixit mode and spent a lot of time and effort wondering how he can be happy.
-- Why is he unhappy? And, no, can't be you. If we're not happy with ourselves we'll never display/encourage our mates to be happy.
What are his short/mid/long term goals? Hopes? Dreams? Have you asked?
If he had 10 million GBPounds dropped into his lap this weekend what would he choose to do with the rest of his life to be fulfilled? Besides holiday? Is he passionate about anything? Where this money would be put to fulfilling use?
He could start with the basics Stop drinking too much Eat more healthily Get some exercise
-- How's your communication? No, he doesn't like being nagged, I'm sure, as you probably agree. The booze will be the last and toughest. Maybe he can scale it back a bit for now?
Tried changing your diets slowly? Start cooking fresh veggies? Fruits. Lean meats. Cut out refined sugars, white flour, starch, coconut/palm oils?
BTW, I had your fish n chips served in a newspaper over there. Blech! It's okay for food to have flavor! (and don't get me started on bangers n mash.)
Maybe you could encourage him to exercise first? Proven depression fighter. Only need 30 min. to start. Walk. Lift weights. That's it.
He could then move on to quitting the negative self-talk, not taking everything personally etc etc.
-- He may be depressed. He needs to read affirming stuff. Get that voice in his head to be positive, energized and build himself/his goals/hopes up.
Sounds insecure. Why? Low self-image/worth? Was he overly criticized as a child? Is he in a rut? Hate his job? What makes him laugh?
Is he against taking an prescribed AD? Or, a supplement? SJWort? (which I've taken/plan to take soon again). Dang Germans are all on it.
Gotta raise his mood somehow.
All this would be good. But all this is NOT MY PROBLEM and I have to train myself to believe it is not my problem and to stay happy regardless of his moods. Since I began DBing I have been working on not criticising, detaching and GAL, but there is and always has been resentment on his part when I appear to continue blithely on with my life “ignoring” is problems and not letting his misery get to me.
--GEL hit all of these nicely. Nuff said.
I am a naturally happy person (just lucky that way).
-- Yes you are. I'm not. Have to work VERY hard to keep the shadows at bay. I'm envious
Still, very good for your H. Misery loves company but you're projecting light to his shadow.
“glass half full” become “self-satisfied” “Strong” become “over-bearing” or “insensitive” “See the positive” become “over-optimistic or simplistic” “Seeing the good in people” become “bad judge of character” “Seeing the funny side” become “flippant"
-- Signs of a depressive. Constant contrarian. Scrooge to the Cratchetts. And he says you are sometimes "insensitive?" I'll bet he's hypersensitive to an extreme.
Do you validate him even if it feels like work? I know, it sucks. But he sounds like he needs his ego stroked, bolstered, encouraged. Doesn't sound like he gets any of that from within. What regular praise do you give him?
How is it that you can purport to empathise with someone, care about them, even love them if you cannot get into their misery. If their misery has to be theirs to own and theirs to live with/fix. I feel that in the last few years since I have been detaching it is like we live our lives on two parallel tracks. I am on the sunny side of the street and he is on the shady side. Do I just carry on regardless on the sunny side and hope one day he will have the sense to cross the street? The more I try to do that it seems the angrier he becomes, notices that I am living a separate life and accusing me of not giving a sh!t about him.
--That last sentence tells all. Insecurity. Fear. Of what? Success? Failure? Is he sometimes clingy/needy/smothering as to getting attention from you?
And, careful, Hap. GALing full throttle may not be best method in this dynamic. H will feel like he's being left behind. Rejected. Will sulk. Sorry for self. Withdraw further in pity-party way. Forgive his selfishness until he can burn the black clouds away.
Like I said, it SUCKS but you have to bolster his ego and self worth. What are his LLs? WOA sounds like a biggie.
I want to raise the happiness bar for both of us, but if I can’t do that I sure as hell don’t want him lowering my happiness bar.
--Or lowering yours any further than it already is, right? That 2 sides of street analogy. Scary rumblings to me. Your GALing and positivity is very good. But it can also become a balloon that causes you to float away from helpless H. More distance. Soon less in common. Boredom. Frustration sets in...
...and I bet office guy was fresh-faced breeze to enter your life at a vulnerable time, eh? Sun/charm/humor opposed to H gray clouds of no humor, neediness, lack of confidence? Tempting to be sure. Glad you saw it for what it was. No fix. Temporary escape. Worst reason on Earth to destroy deep bonds of an M and all of that early happiness/EC before normal drudgery sets in everyone faces.
Hang in there. He needs you. He's wobbly in the self worth department and he needs you to help him get his balance and walk tall. Maybe if he reads success stories similar to his own interests?
But get him to get the blood flowing. Some sunlight. (oh, wait, this is London. No such thing as a sun)
What would he do if you were to suddenly jump on him as he was sitting there on the sofa in a funk and started gleefully tickling him? If he'd laugh I'd try that. Gets all kinds of "fun" brain chemicals buzzing...not to mention a good hurting belly laugh works wonders on clearing the clouded mind.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Hugs. I know how hard it is to be with someone who is always down.
I wonder (and forgive me if this has already been addressed) does your H (to use the in-vogue term) *own* his unhappiness? Or does he blame it all on you or on other external circumstances? Does he think that somehow it's your responsibility to "fix" it?
Or is the pressure to make things better more internal? That is, it is you who feels that you *should* be doing more to help someone you care about and feeling frustrated/angry when your strategies aren't working?
Also, for me, based on my own personal situation, (and, again, forgive me if this has already been discussed to death) the excessive drinking sounds like a huge RED FLAG.
My H always said that he "needed" to drink or "deserved" to drink because he was so unhappy.
I could never explain in a way that he would listen to what seemed to me a glaringly obvious fact. He didn't drink because he was unhappy. He was unhappy because he drank.
Now, if you've made your way through my novelesque (is that really a word??) descriptions of my H's foo/background, you'll see that drinking was/is far from his sole problem. However, it wasn't until he stopped drinking entirely that he was even able to begin to understand some of his other issues. For example, although we had been together for years, it was only after he sought treatment for alcoholism and stopped drinking entirely that he was even able to tell me about his childhood sexual abuse and to consider the role that that has played in his life.
Now, I may be totally wrong (and I hope I am) and alcohol abuse may have nothing to do with your situation, but through my long-ago participation in Alanon, I've learned that, basically, nothing can get better until (if it exists) the alcoholism is addressed.
Just something to think about. And I could be completely off-base, since I'm so sensitized to alcohol abuse by my own situation.
Hugs. I know how hard it is to be with someone who is always down.
I wonder (and forgive me if this has already been addressed) does your H (to use the in-vogue term) *own* his unhappiness? Or does he blame it all on you or on other external circumstances? Does he think that somehow it's your responsibility to "fix" it? No it is my responsibility to fix it.
Or is the pressure to make things better more internal? That is, it is you who feels that you *should* be doing more to help someone you care about and feeling frustrated/angry when your strategies aren't working? Yes that too. Or it has been for a long time, more recently I have realised that he needs to "own" it and I have tried hard to detach and not feel that I should sort it out.
Also, for me, based on my own personal situation, (and, again, forgive me if this has already been discussed to death) the excessive drinking sounds like a huge RED FLAG.
My H always said that he "needed" to drink or "deserved" to drink because he was so unhappy.
I could never explain in a way that he would listen to what seemed to me a glaringly obvious fact. He didn't drink because he was unhappy. He was unhappy because he drank.
Absolutely
Now, I may be totally wrong (and I hope I am) and alcohol abuse may have nothing to do with your situation, but through my long-ago participation in Alanon, I've learned that, basically, nothing can get better until (if it exists) the alcoholism is addressed.
Just something to think about. And I could be completely off-base, since I'm so sensitized to alcohol abuse by my own situation. No you are not off base Landica, he is an alcoholic. This is something I have only allowed myself to realise fairly recently although he has been drinking heavily for a very long time. He will drink 5 or 6 pints (that's English pints i.e. 20 oz) of Kronenbourg or Stella every night. If he doesn't drink beer then he will drink 1.5 bottles of wine. He never has a night off and he rarely drinks less than that. Sometimes he will drink more. He is a very quiet alcoholic, he does not become raging drunk, he never drives if he has had even one drink. This is why, I think, (apart from denial) that I have not picked up on it until recently even though he has done this for at least 10 years. I have no idea why he is an alcoholic. There appears to be no real reason why he should be. His parents are perfectly nice, loving people. They are still together and are in fact very affectionate and kind to each other. I know he has always felt somehow left out of the little love story that was/is his parents + elder brother. And on several occasions his father has told me that H was difficult as a child. But it all seems so minor compared to more serious FOO issues that many people suffer from. I am sitting here writing this after another ridiculous argument with him that almost always comes about when he has spent the evening drinking and hasn't eaten anything. Lately he has pretty much stopped eating anything I cook. He subsists on junk food. He blames it on my inability to cook properly or to consider the sorts of things he likes to eat. This is hurtful but it is in fact nonsense. Friends and family are always complimenting me on my cooking, I enjoy it and I am happy to cook all kinds of different sorts of food. This was something we used to enjoy together in the early days but I guess for an alcoholic eventually nothing comes above alcohol in the scheme of things and food has finally made it off the list as has sex. Michele's book Divorce Remedy does in fact state that if there is alcoholism or any substance abuse then it is pretty much hopeless to try and bust the divorce. After three years of trying I am afraid I'm starting to agree with her.
thanks for your thoughts
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Hmm, what are the "stop" signs in UK? Last time I was in London I only remember always turning my head to watch for traffic and always getting it backwards. Look right--car zooms by from left. Look left at next crossing, lorrie barreling from my right. Bollocks! Bloody hell.... At least you learnt to swear properly!
-- Why is he unhappy? And, no, can't be you. If we're not happy with ourselves we'll never display/encourage our mates to be happy.
What are his short/mid/long term goals? Hopes? Dreams? Have you asked? We don't really talk much Stig, he hides himself away with his computer night after night, if we do talk it is either did you remember to buy milk or him dumping his awful day off on me.
-- How's your communication? No, he doesn't like being nagged, I'm sure, as you probably agree. The booze will be the last and toughest. Maybe he can scale it back a bit for now?
Our communication sucks! I have suggested cutting back on booze to him. I recently printed off some information about alcoholism and was going to give it to him but in fact he found it himself and read it, which I was pleased about. He understood that he drinks way too much and that he is very close or already physically addicted to alcohol. A week or two later I suggested that he scale back a little before he makes a concerted effort to tackle it properly but have been stonewalled. Tried changing your diets slowly? Start cooking fresh veggies? Fruits. Lean meats. Cut out refined sugars, white flour, starch, coconut/palm oils? Stig, you don't need to tell me how to eat healthily! I do and the kids do, H refuses to and always has done since we were first married, there is absolutely nothing I haven't tried to get him to eat more veggies or fruit.
BTW, I had your fish n chips served in a newspaper over there. Blech! It's okay for food to have flavor! (and don't get me started on bangers n mash.) Don't get ME started on McDonalds!
Maybe you could encourage him to exercise first? Proven depression fighter. Only need 30 min. to start. Walk. Lift weights. That's it. Yes I have tried to encourage exercise too, honestly Stig he is stubborn as a mule, he has chosen a lifestyle for himself which is basically the heart attack special and he point blank refuses to make even the smallest change. I long ago gave up nagging him about it, I do set an example by not smoking, not drinking heavily, eating healthy foods and taking regular exercise but there is really nothing more I can do.
Sounds insecure. Why? Low self-image/worth? Was he overly criticized as a child? Is he in a rut? Hate his job? What makes him laugh? I have no idea why he is insecure or has low self-image and it's not as if I haven't tried to talk to him about it over the years. His parents are sweetie-pies, possibly overly protective and a tad perfectionist, but like I said to Landica it is soooo minor compared to some people's backgrounds.
-- Signs of a depressive. Constant contrarian. Scrooge to the Cratchetts. And he says you are sometimes "insensitive?" I'll bet he's hypersensitive to an extreme. Oh my GOD! Hypersensitive is not the word for it. I cannot make any sort of remark that might possibly be construed as a criticism, most of which never were or ever would be meant as such but are taken that way anyway.
Do you validate him even if it feels like work? I know, it sucks. But he sounds like he needs his ego stroked, bolstered, encouraged. Doesn't sound like he gets any of that from within. What regular praise do you give him?
Probably not as much as he needs. But I feel like I'm laying it on with a trowel, and often it feels like he sees through that. He has always been very good at rebuffing praise too.
...and I bet office guy was fresh-faced breeze to enter your life at a vulnerable time, eh? Sun/charm/humor opposed to H gray clouds of no humor, neediness, lack of confidence? Tempting to be sure. Glad you saw it for what it was. No fix. Temporary escape. Worst reason on Earth to destroy deep bonds of an M and all of that early happiness/EC before normal drudgery sets in everyone faces. Yes you are right, normal drudgery sets in after a while. But that wasn't the only reason I did not push things with work-guy. The main reason was to save my own pride, this guy was 15 years younger than me and gorgeous! My ego could not have taken the rebuff.
What would he do if you were to suddenly jump on him as he was sitting there on the sofa in a funk and started gleefully tickling him? If he'd laugh I'd try that. Gets all kinds of "fun" brain chemicals buzzing...not to mention a good hurting belly laugh works wonders on clearing the clouded mind.
Oh God, I wish, the playful side of me no longer exists around him Stig, so many times have I been irritably batted off. He spends most of his evenings in front of the computer, which makes it hard to playfully do ANYTHING. If I go near him when he's at the puter I might as well sign my own death warrant.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
I found a boundary I know can make stick! I have heard so much about boundaries on this board and I know that I absolutely suck at defining and maintaining boundaries. So much so that I really had a hard time thinking what a boundary could be.
It finally came to me the other night when a stupid row erupted over what there was to eat. H had been working hard all day (Saturday) and hadn't really achieved much because of people letting him down so he was in a pretty down mood. And as usual he had been sucking back beers all evening without eating anything I had a feeling I would get the rough end of it at some point and sure enough I did - just miserable complaints about what I had cooked. The row was bad and he called me on raising my voice, I called him on the fact that it really was not about me but about the sh!t day he had had. I then walked away. About half an hour later he came upstairs where I was watching TV and told me off for walking away and said it was up to me to reconcile the argument. In fact he called it my TURN, which I looked puzzled at and said I wasn't aware there were turns.
Anyway I let him go to bed and fall asleep before turning in myself.
The next morning I got up and D4 and I made breakfast and took a tray up to Daddy, I kissed him and said it was just to show that I forgave him for last night. He looked a bit taken aback by that but didn't say anything. The rest of the day was fine.
My BOUNDARY is that I refuse to be shouted at over nothing when the real issue is elsewhere. This has happened so much in our M but I always react and take him up on whatever he has decided to pick on me for. Now I am just going to say: I refuse to engage in an argument that is not about me and walk away. If he says it IS about me then I will say, OK I am prepared to listen but lets save it until a time when you have eaten and not had too much to drink.
He knows as well as I do that he does this to me, he has admitted it and apologised for it in the past but he has never changed the behaviour. That is why I know I have to enforce it has a boundary. I also know I can because I can always see it coming a mile away.
watch this space!
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
So your boundary is: (1) You will not be shouted at over minor issues when the real issue is being left undiscussed. (2) You will not discuss issues with him while he has an empty stomach and is drunk (or at least buzzed).
Sounds good to me. I would probably expand it to say: I refuse to engage in a conversation in which you are shouting at me (unless I am very far away and I can't hear you ).
So, what are the consequences (as far as your actions) of the boundary being violated. Walking away or more serious results?
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
<--- me being positive 
).