So, Cobra, if I have needs within my marriage--and I express them--I am being a princess.
If you have needs in your marriage and you express them, regardless of how you do so, you are being the strong man that you should have been years ago and I am being a princess.
Somehow I'm thinking that you've gone all the way to the other end of the spectrum here. There is "woman gets everything she wants, guy acts like a chick" and "man does nothing and woman has to accept it or she's being a spoiled princess".
Really? These are my choices?
Come on now.
It is not unreasonable for me to want my H to be romantic once in a while. For him to put some effort into his half of the sexual/romantic R.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who took Cobra's post in that way. I got the exact same feeling from what he said. I don't know if that's truly how he intended it or not, but it is the impression it gave me.
Cobra...what Honeypot is asking of her H is something she's been asking for for quite some time. It's not as if she's now adding this to her list of things once he's completed the list.
Chrome,
Just to add to my post. I think you are underestimating HDW's such as honeypot (and perhaps myself). We give our H's a great deal of credit for the things to do bring to the M...and many times the R itself. Sure, your comments probably would apply to many women....but you are posting to someone who DOES give her H credit and validates what he does.
I am in agreement with Gel and HP here. You are not being fair to HP. She isn't getting her needs met. These are simple needs that can be met with a modicum of effort. Just as your W could "feed you, admire you, and sex you" more often and with better humor. HP's H could follow do some very simple things and they could both benefit. Think back over HP's posts about how she let's her H knows the things about him she loves, how she homeschools the kids and stays home (partly because he prefers it that way), think about how she has mentioned cooking things he likes and having faith conversations because he likes them. C'mon Cobra - sour grapes here.
I understand your disappointment. You are trying so hard to be seen not just as "mom" but as the sensual, vibrant woman you are. You ( and some of the other women here) amaze me with your ability to keep this part of your identity going with small kids in the house ( I fell into the mother-fusion thing, as you recall).
I do think it's hard for your H to really see this part of you...for many reasons. It started when you became "wife" and intensified when you had child #1. I believe you said things got better after child #2 because of the hard work you put in to it all. I have to tell you, you are going to have to keep fighting to keep this piece going. You obviously can't and won't wait til the kids are out of the house ( then there will be a whole new set of "reasons").
I agree that you don't have much leverage considering that you are not going anywhere. But it may be time again to send the message that this is so impt to you that it will not go away...and get back to being direct, firm HP...even though it takes away from the whole thing to have to do that. Have faith that your H will " get it" faster...and will surprise you.
Alright, I went back and read your post again. Here are my thoughts.
Quote: His friends
He has none.
Quote: may tell him he is PW (pussy whipped),
Umm, don't you first have to crave the P and be willing to go to great lengths to get it, in order to qualify for the PW label?
Look. H is a people pleaser. He was like this before he met me. He doesn't do very many GAL activities but when he suggests them, I'm all for it. The one thing I do is to encourage him to come straight home after work--I'm fried from being home with the little ones all day. *However*, if he had something to do I would NOT make him feel bad about it. I try to encourage him to spend time with his brothers but he stifles his own need for a life and sacrifices it all to the greater glory of his family--and builds up resentment towards me in the process. Is this my fault? No way. Is there anything I can do about it? Not really, aside from forcing him out of the house and into activities which, frankly, I just do not have the time or the inclination to put together. I'm not his Mom.
Quote: Perhaps your expectations on what an ideal relationship should be are not in sync with the reality of what the two of you can deliver.
Perhaps you are right. It doesn't mean that I stop wanting what I want, though. It's who I am to want particular things that are unique to me.
Quote: He knows your resentment (women don’t let men avoid this) and will want to keep the peace, even though he may slowly be growing resentful that you always seem to want more (I am guessing here).
I agree with this assessment. I've been trying, since becoming more relationship savvy, to stop the resentment but things like this really get it going. If he feels an irrational need to keep the peace, I reiterate that that is his problem--not mine. Conflict avoidance has never been a friend to him and yet he turns to it, time and again.
Quote: If you tow were to get divorced and you had to go to work, and turn your kids over to him 50% of the time, so some other woman could be their part time mother, do you really think the timing a Valentine’s flowers or a “Mom” necklace is going to matter?
Fine, then, Cobra, let's turn this around. Why are you trying to get your R back on track? Why even worry about sex with your wife? If you were divorced you would only see your kids 50% of the time.......blah blah. As long as I'm in a monogamous relationship, I'm going to continue to try to be a good wife and hope that he will reciprocate. NEVER will I just say "Oh well, if I was divorced I'd be even more miserable.." That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. We all, consciously and unconsciously, push to get our needs met. It is human nature and has nothing to do with gender.
Quote: He is expressing himself as he believes, by working hard for the family, helping around the house, etc.
So let me get this straight.
I am to feed him, sex him, and admire him. Oh and keep the f*ckin house spotless, don't forget that. (as if I could ever forget it for even one fraction of a second, so conditioned am I)
He........provides for the family.
Cobra, do you not see that his contributions are for our family and mine are for HIM?
Where is the contribution to me?
P.S. I would appreciate it if you would respond to this last question with your male viewpoint and not by calling me a spoiled princess. The fact that I dared ask for something in this R that is not family-related in no way makes me spoiled. In fact, if you would ask my H, he would HOWL with laughter at the idea of me being spoiled within this R. He would unequivocally say that he is the spoiled one and I get his leftovers.
If nothing else, Cobra, all the sparring we're doing is causing my irritation at H to dissipate. I can even look at the flowers now without wanting to puke. D6 discovered them in the yard this morning, when she went out to play. They had been triumphantly chucked there last night so that I didn't have to look at them. For some reason the sight of them was upsetting me. Once they were gone, I felt instantly relieved. Now they're back but I'm doing ok.
H came home last night in an absolute snit that I wasn't happy with the flowers. He accused me of never being satisfied, etc. I felt so hurt by his words that I sat down in my room and suddenly felt like I couldn't get up. I was thinking, Get up honeypot, you have to make dinner...but I couldn't do it. Just sat there with tears streaming down my face. H never said a word. Finally, I got up and entered the kitchen, my main domain. My whole day with 3 feverish kids was running through my mind and the endless monotony of it all. All I've asked for is an occasional respite from drudgery. For him to, once in a while now, take my mind away from all this. He just wants to do the bare minimum and for me to leave him alone and be happy.
I'm still upset so I can't make a fair assessment of things and, really, what does it matter. He has his perception, I have mine.
Anyway, I think I'm beginning to chill a little and we can hopefully talk about it tonight. IF he can somehow manage to face the conflict he has been so skillfully avoiding.
All I can say is that I empathize in a way. My life is not boring, or filled with drudgery like a SAHM's life can be, but I have this longing now, for something more, something gradiose in my marriage. This includes sexual exploration and being adventurous in bed (and in other places in the house and elsewhere ), but that is only part. It also includes any sort of loving activity together, from vacations to just snuggling on the couch watching a movie. All of that stuff is so very sparse in my life, and I want more ... a LOT more. My life does seem boring without it, and I hate boring.
You should read over Talking Points 1 and 2 again if you haven't already. You don't have to have low self-esteem for them to be useful. The points to remember are (1) there is no right or wrong way to feel, there just is the way you feel. You should not apologize for feeling the way you do, having the needs you have, or wanting what you want. The only question is, what do you do with those feelings, needs, wants. (2) You should strive to get what YOU want out of life in a way that you respect. Again, there is nothing wrong with actively making yourself happy, in whatever way you want, so long as you respect yourself afterwards and the means by which you acheived that happiness. You deserve to be happy, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to be happy or going to great lengths to get it.
I'm rambling a bit, I hope what I say makes sense. I do feel for you, your description of your life in that last post was very poignant.
"All I've asked for is an occasional respite from drudgery. For him to, once in a while now, take my mind away from all this."
I'll bet I know what the answer is, but I have to ask. Have you ever said these words directly to him? This is not an unreasonable thing to ask. It is not unreasonable for you both to sit down and establish measurable goals by which you can acheive this respite.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Chrome, Let me put it to you this way: There is nothing that I've said on this bb (at least in recent memory, I can think of some pretty scathing stuff from the past) that I haven't said to his face. He understands that I need a respite but he is overwhelmed and doesn't feel like he has it in him to be romantic and/or sexy.
I'm slowly climbing out of the Center of the Universe Chair, you will all be happy to know.
My kids were up all night long, feverish and coughing to beat the band, and couldn't sleep. So they've all taken loooooong naps this morning, which allowed me to blow off steam on the bb.
One question I am going to ask H tonight is this:
Why do you pull out all the stops for your parents' birthdays and events, including their wedding anniversary, but choke when it has to do with me? There seems to be this fear that you will let them down that isn't there, as it concerns me. What message do you think it sends me when I see you working so hard to make their day(s) special and then justgiterdone with me?
I no longer feel livid and there will be no more flower throwing tonight. I'm on my best behavior. Though if they ever make it an Olympic event, I'm set in the bouquetshotput category.
Why do you pull out all the stops for your parents' birthdays and events, including their wedding anniversary, but choke when it has to do with me? There seems to be this fear that you will let them down that isn't there, as it concerns me. What message do you think it sends me when I see you working so hard to make their day(s) special and then justgiterdone with me?
This one is easy. He does this for the same reason kids seem so composed at school, then dump on their mom when they get home, or start drying when mom walks into the room. Like your kids, you are the emotional safety net for you husband. He feels safe and comfortable enough to dump on you. He does not feel safe enough to be up front and direct with his family. He pulls out the stops with them because of FEAR!
This also confirms what I was telling you on the other thread. His FOO has severely hurt his sense of confidence and self esteem. He must continually strive for acknowledgement with his family or he will be shamed. He knows you do not shame him and that you accept him for what he is. Unfortunately that means he does not have to please you to get your acceptance.
If you confront him with the above question, I think you will put him on the spot and he will blow up. He knows he does this, he feels bad about it, but he is too enmeshed with his family to be able to pull out of his obligations. The hypocrisy of all this means he bears ultimate responsibility, but that is too much for him, and many men, to acknowledge, especially one who was raise to please others. He will read your question as having to chose between you or his family. And that will feel like betrayal.
If I were you, I would NOT do this. Rather, try to understand what he is dealing with, how imprisoned he feels, how he thinks he is doing everything in his power to please everyone in his life who is important to him, except himself, and how he fees that it is never enough and he just gets blamed for it. Your husband does not truly understand boundaries and for him to become healthy and happy, and therefore give you the love and attention you crave, he must learn to become more self protective and to take care of his own needs.
I know this sounds absurd from you perspective, but your perspective does not count. If this is what he believes, then you must acknowledge that, whether it is right or wrong. He believes it.
He must learn to focus on his needs, how to address to needs and what he wants out of life. He needs to evaluate his priorities to come to the conclusion that he must back away from the enmeshment with his family. He must find self respect and self love, so that he has sufficient capacity to give this back to you. Helping him understand this, and supporting him on this journey is where you can help. Demanding more time from him to make you feel better will drive him away. Don’t ask that question.
It does not sound absurd to me; it sounds 100% accurate.
I can logically see how this is...and emotionally want to support him, in whatever way he needs it.
It's just that my grinding reality..the monotony of wiping bottoms and snot noses and playing endless games of pretend and listening to the baby cry (she has a fussy personality) and coloring and....and....and....
dammit. It's hard, is all.
It's hard to find my own strength to keep going when I can't lean on his. I can't depend on him to provide me with the smallish things I ask because he's too wrapped up in his own stuff.
Sucks to be me.
But....like I said, I've vacated the Chair so I'm not going to dwell on it.
How's this.
I will try not to ask the question. You're right; it's nothing but a way to induce guilt and that's the last thing MrH needs to have heaped on him.
), but that is only part. It also includes any sort of loving activity together, from vacations to just snuggling on the couch watching a movie. All of that stuff is so very sparse in my life, and I want more ... a LOT more. My life does seem boring without it, and I hate boring.