Quote: It's like you are being asked by the Universe (and yourself!) to be the proverbial Rock of Gibralter while also agreeing to let yourself be as open and vulnerable as possible.
That's a good description, it's certainly how I feel, and how my Counselor would describe this. And add 'get myself out of the rut I've been in for the past many years'. One thing my C has said, from the very beginning, is that IF we do bring our marriage back together again it will be because of WHAT I DO, and who I am. I've asked her so many times 'why me?' and she says 'because YOU can do this'. She has told me repeatedly that she would tell me straight out if she felt there was no hope for us. I remember about 2 weeks ago I practically begged her to let me give up, it hurt so bad to absorb all that I was absorbing from W, kids, everybody, and still putting on a strong front. She said 'give me 3 more weeks with W in counseling before you give up'. Well, it's been about 1 1/2 weeks so far.
Quote: you know and I know there is a point in depression when the ill person has no control over their reactions and needs the help of those who love them. My H also feels like he did everything to help me, but a great deal of the time it only served to make things worse or preserved the status quo, totally leaving me to pick up the pieces by myself.
Wow, you're the first person to describe my feelings for the past years so accurately. Add in drinking to 'feel better' and you described our life, and the main problem why I stayed 'stuck' so long. I actually realize that if W had STOPPED doing anything and pushed my survival buttons, and if I had a good counselor, I would have stood back up on my own. I did it in the past, I could do it again. Actually, right NOW I am doing it. I just needed to be left alone for a while.
Quote: He only started to feel sorry for me - love lost at that moment! - and stayed, afraid I might kill myself - sounds familiar, I'm sure.
That's what W says, she was 'afraid to leave me' but she also says she does love me, or to quote her a week ago during the 'fight' we had "I've loved you for 20 years, I don't know how to NOT love you".
Quote: you are extremely fortunate in your choice of C. It sounds like most of your W's reactions and stages have been correctly anticipated by her.
She's been close, it's the timings that are off and the exact nature of W's choices. C says that many women go through this kind of thing, usually when their first child reaches adolescence. They have been a mother and a wife and need to reaffirm their 'womanhood' and independence. So they go on these 'journeys'. Add the problems we have and the hurt and anger W feels about them and you have our life. I wrote a whole long post on this a while back.
Quote: Your C said to expect that she would, at some point, have physical attraction and feelings for you again. What did your C say about the best 'stance' you could take in such situations - I mean for your own sake? I think you're right about women generally having emotional connections when having sex. Wouldn't this be good?
C said a bunch of things in the first week of this journey, which seems like years ago... Expect W to come to your room some nite and want to sleep with you, expect her to get hurt in this OM fantasy relationship and want you to make her feel better (Don't, she said, let her deal with her mistakes). Neither of these things has happened yet but the 'attraction' was new.
The 'physical attraction' yesterday was explained by her as her thinking that sex would relieve a lot of tension in her life, and her body NEEDS sex and she's not getting any (me either). But then she went on to say how so many people think we are already the 'weirdest' divorcing couple they know because we live together and of the things we do in public. It was kind of in the vein of 'so, why stop now, might as well have sex too'.
C said it could be a door back to intimacy, but to make sure I read her correctly. So I left the door open and detached.
Personally, I think W will push it out of her head, it's a very big risk for her to get that close to me. As she said 'after all we've been through, how could we do it?' It would be awkward for sure since she cut off all physical contact on October 31, then threw all kinds of anger at me, told all her friends how glad she was she was done with me, then started pursuing 'OM' via e-mail and cell phone till she ultimatly went to see him for a weekend and has been 'in love' ever since. But as we know, he is a predator and is just playing with her. And it has already gone through some ups and downs in the past few weeks so I have no idea where that's at. He was last claiming to fly out for a visit in late february...
Quote: So...what IS the story about D and your W? Is she grasping at it thinking it is going to make her feel in control of her life? Is she dancing around it, not really knowing how she feels? What are your thoughts (and again, what would your C say?)?
C says right now she is trying to discover herself, and who she can be without me, without the commitment of marriage. Without the 'responsibility' for me, for the kids. Her model for marriage, which was her Grandmothers model I mentioned a couple days ago, had a woman give up her 'self' for her marriage. I never demanded that of her, I never expected that of her. She just did it that way on her own. And, she had no experience living with the kind of life I've lived, 'type A' with huge ups and downs. The highs are REALLY high and the lows are really low but it's never dull and always exciting during the highs. I always wanted her to find herself while in the marriage. It was ME I didn't care about the last several years.
So, getting a divorce means 'freedom' from being responsible for me. Freedom to find men who share her interests and look for that 'deep loving relationship' she thought she had found with OM. She thinks she has to have it, and that since she is not 'in love' with me but has successfully shut off her feelings for me then our life together is over forever.
Except, as our Counselor says to me:
-- I don't need her to take care of me, in fact I never needed her to. And recently I TOLD her that. So now one of the reasons for D has been removed.
-- Being 'in love' with OM was / is a fantasy. He's a poor example of a stable person, 2 ex wives, dumps his girlfried after meeting W, needs to 'change his environment' so he wants to move here to be 'closer' to W but he has no real way to do it as far as I can tell. He morphs into whatever she wants him to be. Also, C says that W is starting to question his sincerity. So, finding a man with 'similar interests' hasn't been a real success.
-- I've been strong and stable since day 1. Did not pursue, did not fight, kept the household together, kept strong for the kids. Stopped drinking. Somehow got out of depression. Sure, I hurt every day but I don't let it show. So, 'frank NEEDS me, will die without me' and 'frank will never stop drinking' and 'frank is always depressed and angry' are now no longer valid divorce reasons.
-- I spend a lot of time with my kids. Before, I hardly knew them. Now, D15 and I have a great relationship. For a long time she only trusted me and didn't trust W at all, she said so to W in family counseling. D10 also started coming to ME during the first couple months. She just didnt't get the support from W and also said so. So, 'frank is depressed, has no family connection' is defeated. Another justification for Divorce is being erased.
And, I say NO more often. I don't just go along with whatever she says regarding the kids, or other things that I just don't agree with. I used to 'let her decide' a lot of stuff.
C says W sees that I did NOT stay where I was, that I moved forward, and under the worst possible circumstances. And she HAS to notice the incongruities between what she believed was always going to be true about me, and what is now true. She remembers me as I was when we got married. She sees me right now as becoming more than that man ever was.
All these little things she 'notices', the way I drive with her, the time I spend with the kids, I eat healthy, I exercise. They don't fit her model of 'who frank is'.
And her biggest issue of being an 'independent' woman with her own business and her own life independent of me, and the family. Well, she still lives with me and the family. She still gets up in the morning and does the same routines with the kids. She still shops for groceries and goes to kids events - with ME.
She IS starting her business, but ONLY because she is living under the umbrella of the 'marriage' so she has the financial flexibility to take this kind of risk. And, all the things about me that she was running away from are gone. So it's slowly become a contradiction that she needs to be 'free and divorced' to do all these things she wants to do. She is actually MORE free by being in the marriage, in the family.
So, the 'reasons' for divorce are gray now. She may actually realize that she could have done her business and all the the other things she thinks she wants as part of her 'freedom', while still in the marriage. It was her choices that kept us both where we were.
So, to answer your question, YES she wants a divorce because she thinks it's needed for her to be independent, and also that she isn't 'in love' with me any more but still 'loves me'. She thinks she can't ever be married again because it will cause her to lose herself to a man again.
But hopefully she will see that isn't true, and that 'in love' is not 'real love'. What I've been doing for her and for myself and our kids is 'real love'. And if she can feel it again, all the other 'deep' love feelings can be felt too. And that's the one thing I have no control over, nor can anyone tell her to feel this way. She has to decide to, and she may not want to.
Quote: With admiration for your hard work, Kaly
Thanks Kaly. I hope that my W sees what I've done to help preserve 'us' and 'family' after so many years of crap. Regardless, I will be ok and so will my kids.
