Quote: Is there any way you can find time to actually physically get away...soon? Like to a meditation retreat or even to a hotel where you can have quiet time/meditation for yourself for a day or two? For you own mental/emotional health, please take this into consideration. ... Take a well-deserved Time Out!
Kaly, I am actually going to a 3 day 'thing' next weekend. It's sort of a retreat for men to reconnect with the warrior that is inside of us all. It's kind of different, and was reccommended by an acquaintance who went to it and said 'It changed my life'. Its here at the Mankind Project New Warrior Training Adventure.
One of the things they say you get out of this is a better sense of self and purpose. Both of which I need. They even say in testimonials that relationships have changed after this experience. I look at it this way: I'm lost and need to be found. So far I have accelerated my recovery from depression and alcohol in just 3 months.
I told W all that I knew, and that a lot of it is secretive. She was impressed that I was going to a retreat at all, and the secretive and intense emotions they claim will come out is a show of vulnerability she has never seen me do. So she's actually pretty excited.
I decided last week that it's now OK for me to let go of being there for the kids, and the Wife since she is now able to do that again. So, I am doing things for ME and my growth and recovery. This seems like it will be an experience and if it can help me to remove more of my 'needyness' and strengthen my detachment then I'm all for it.
But, I also have a lot of work that must be dones this week befre I go and the only way I'll get it done is to drop all communications with W to the bare minimum.
I realize that in all these exchanges THAT I AM GIVING her energy / power by being positive, supportive. Because I am usually tired or exhausted after these 'sessions'. THe positive, flirty interchanges are desinged by her to pull from me. Especially when I withdraw from her for a couple days. It needs to be done. She needs a 'feeling' she gets from me and Counselor says take it away from her. It's like an addiction.
Quote: We took D10 and a friend to 'bingo nite' at her school. Sat next to each other and across the table from a couple we didn't know very well but were very nice. W was joking and flirty with me and we were making fun of each other as we played our cards. She got up and bought some treats, brownies and cookies and gave me the brownie. I said it tasted kind of weird and she had me 'feed' her a bite. We were inches away from each others face. We laughed about it. We shared little smiles, looks and other stuff for a few more minutes.
Out of curiosity, why do you think she does these things? Crys about "why does this have to hurt so much" on wednesday, tell me in counciling on thursday 'so, whe should we file?' then on friday she's all over the place emotionally culminating in flirty behaviors that a stranger notices and comments on, which then totally shuts her off and she moves away from me?
Today, she's distant, but not so distant and she says she is 'in a mood'. Then during a discussion about WHO was going to pick up D15 from play practice she said 'Swee.. ' then caught herself and finished her sentence. At least that's what I THOUGHT I heard. What do you think?
I REALLY need to back off and detach because I am getting myself all screwed up with probably false hopes.
I responded to your last post but I guess it went into some post black hole. So... I'll start again and also respond from my point of view to your new question.
First of all, it's really great to hear that you are going to the retreat. It really sounds as though you need to recentre yourself and I do hope this will be of help to you. It seems like you have been exhausting yourself in trying to make things happen in your R. I'm sure you are right that detaching from your need to do so will take some pressure off.
As for your wife's behavior, it sounds like she is confused. It sounds like she misses you and the love and comfort of the old relationship (slipping into "sweetheart"?), and is afraid you want a D while she wants it one day (to get away from the difficulty of past difficulties in R and self?) and not the next (has begun to see the man she loved). Maybe she is as afraid as you are to end up in the same sitch in your R if she tries again. Maybe she feels guilty about what she did and inside, assumes there is no hope. Has she ever SAID she wanted a D or does she say "maybe we should get one" or "I've been looking into a D" besides saying "when should we get a D"? That sounds like someone who is fishing to find out how you feel about it, trying to get your reaction. If she really WANTED a D, she would SAY she wanted a D. This is not to give you false hope. I just find it hard to imagine that she feels nothing for you given the way you are describing her behavior. I would also say (from the standpoint of being a recovering passive and dependent type) that her "dance" around you shows a fear of rejection about your response to her. Are you often feeling angry around her? if so, she may sense this and retreat. Perhpas you are a powerful personality in your household and neither of you have found a way yet to communicate without bringing up your competing needs; she may just being ultra cautious, too, trying not to get hurt.
This is all speculation, Frank. I hope other people (women especially) will put in their own 2 cents, as well. It would be good to think about this sitch a bit more.
Your questions are easier to answer if you read my original sitch, and some subsequent ones. A lot has changed but is is SHE who pushes for divorce.
You really should read this. If nothing else but to see someone go waaaay far into the WAW world of fantasy love then slowly come back to where we are now. Wherever that is. Plus, OM is an 'Emotional Predator' and we get to see it develop, the bizarre stories and lies.
I should write a book, you could NOT make this stuff up. If it wasn't MY LIFE I would probably laugh at it. As it is I cry more than I laugh. But, I will be fine now.
So, grab a cup of coffee and read, weep and be amazed...
ok, W is at home this afternoon. She's been at her new 'work space' at the spa that she's renting to hopefully start up her business. She's a little stressed out because she is seeing that to do it right, she needs a lot more stuff for decor and just to make it a good massage room. She's pretty much cleaned out the room in our house but needs more.
Sooooo, she is looking way stressed. I'm a bit stressed from my day, I had some issues with client servers and I've been interruped all day with no breaks.
So, I say to her 'Hey, you look like you could use a hug, I know I could use one!'. She says "Sure, why not, come on over here". So I walk over to her and put my arms around her and hug her, she hugs me. We kind of just breath, I am letting myself take it all in and let the tension go because I really need to.
It felt good to hold her and be held. Really good. But it had to end. So I said 'thanks, I needed that' and I was walking away and she starts to chuckle to herself. I ask her 'what are you laughing at?' She still is laughing and says 'You don't want to know, you really don't". She seems very uncomfortable now. But of course now I want to KNOW so I badger her. She starts to get more serious and says "I don't want to talk about it, I don't want to hurt your feelings".
So, I figure that she's probably thinking about how fate has dealt her a bad hand and OM is far away and she can't get any 'release' because of that. She said something to that effect a week or so ago if you've read my posts. "I ain't gettin any" she said. You know what I mean. So I put up my best tough guy attitude and say 'No, now I HAVE to know because it's going to bug me otherwise so tell me'.
W says: Well, didn't you feel 'something' during that hug we just had?
Me: Yeah, I felt a lot better, it was nice to just be held for a minute, let go of the world...
W: No, I mean didn't you feel 'something else'?
Me: Oh, you mean more than just two people sharing a moment? Did I put too much of my emotional need into it? I didn't mean to cross your boundaries...
W: No, it was me, I was feeling like I really needed, you know, physical release. My body NEEDS that and I was feeling like 'gee we've been together 20 years and here we are...'
Me: (I am totally unsure of what to say next) : Ah, I see what you mean. I've been feeling that too. It's hard enough (no pun) being around you, you're such a good looking babe! Sorry if I did anything to cross your boundaries.
W: Well, it's just so weird to be here together and be getting divorced and having these feelings. I know it's just physical but it sucks.
Me: (grasping ast straws) Well I read a lot online in the divorce forums that it's not uncommon for people who are in an 'amicable' divorce situation to sleep together sometimes. I guess they know they are safe with each other - they know each other (boy am I laying it on).
W: People already think we are the weirdest divorcing couple they've ever seen. We live together, we go out together, we get along in public. We're bizarre.
Me: Well, yeah. Have we ever been like everyone else? nooo. I've been having these weird feelings the past few days too. I'm trying hard to respect your boundaries...
W: I don't know. After all we've been through, you think you would want to? We'd just be using each other to get off. But my body sure needs it and it would relieve my tension.
Me: I'm in a place right now where I'm not angry about the past any more, I'm moving forward and I wouldn't see it as 'using each other', we still have feelings and it could be very pleasant to feel cared for.
W: Well, this is too bizarre. I can't believe I have these feelings.
Me: Well, I still think you're a good looking babe, so if you change your mind you know where I live!
Then I smiled and left the room.
Hey, at least I know I'm still attractive to a woman! That's a plus and good for my self esteem. And, it did feel 'good' to hold her. A little too good....
I'm sure I will pay for this. She's gone now to do some massages tonite so I will have to take a cold shower.
Quote: W: I don't know. After all we've been through, you think you would want to? We'd just be using each other to get off. But my body sure needs it and it would relieve my tension.
My man, I'm curious; why did you not do her? I mean you love her, you want her, and she wuz primed! What's the deal? .....inquiring minds want 2 know.
In my sitch, my W (XWAW) - during our emotional separation - use to communicate similar things whenever "she was in need" e.g., "women have needs, too", "if we ML, I don't want you to confuse sex with love", "I want to ML w/ you, but do not want to hurt you", etc. Though at first, these communications hurt me (self-inflicted, "all in my mind"- type of pain, 'mind you), they didn't hurt me enough to not accept her offers. The fact was that she was still physically attracted to me. And this knowledge boosted my confidence. Besides, we built on those "exclusively" physical (yeah right!) interactions.
I learned that though you should always listen to what your W says, you should pay more attention to what she does (non-verbal communication). The fact is that your W expressed to you that she wanted you! And if she's going to later repeat her typical, (what I refer to as) DBing hangover symptoms anyway, e.g., regret, remorse, confusion, etc., then you might as well take these "morsels" when they're given to you.
Quote: My man, I'm curious; why did you not do her? I mean you love her, you want her, and she wuz primed! What's the deal? .....inquiring minds want 2 know. .....The fact was that she was still physically attracted to me. And this knowledge boosted my confidence. Besides, we built on those "exclusively" physical (yeah right!) interactions. ....The fact is that your W expressed to you that she wanted you!
Good questions.
I did not 'do her' because she did not 'offer'. She was in a state of 'what am I feeling and is this ok to feel?'. I don't think you've been keeping up with current events but W BARELY ever touchs me, in the form of a hug or anything. For her to even SAY she felt this way after a nice, close hug was an amazing thing. 'Jumping' into bed is not going to happen after one conversation. Plus, it was the late afternoon, kids and their friends were around, even in the 'old days' we wouldn't 'do it' then.
It was an ego boost for me that she even THOUGHT about it. It kind of connected the previous nites 'flirting and withdrawal' to her mixed up feelings of 'lust'. I never would have expected it given the last few days of her attitude. Plus her comment of 'after all we've been through' is directly related to her thinking I don't find her attractive because of her affair (which I am suspecting is fading out). The other day I pretty much told her I would never trust her emotionally again. She also is processing "can I have sex with him, but still get divorced, and not get emotional?"
Now later that evening when I was in my room sitting on the bed reading a book she 'had to' come in to 'look for' some things in the bathroom for her Girl Scout day trip today. Yeah, it was a valid reason and some stuff she needed was in my (our) bathroom but she did linger and talk to me. Of course I smiled and did my best to be seductive just to irk her. She made some comments like 'oh, it's cold in here just the way you like it' and I said 'I could close the window warm it up.' and she said 'I'm sure you could!'. She also said that the bathroom sink needed to be cleaned and I mentioned 'hey, at least my sheets are clean so my bed doesn't smell bad'. By the way I had just made the bed and it was immaculate instead of the usual mess.
This was very different behavior. She comes in the master bedroom every day pretty much for some reason, she still has a lot of her clothes in her closet. But she usually doesn't come in when I AM IN HERE. And she never makes any comments about the room temperature, the bathroom or anything else. In fact she doesn't talk about anything except kid related stuff.
When I did talk to her earlier about this 'topic' I left it open ended by saying 'If you change your mind you know where I live' and walked away. I am NOT pursuing HER. In fact I THINK I gave the impression that I will 'do her' but only if SHE comes to ME because she wants it. I don't NEED her sexually but I'd like it. And the comments I made later in my room were 'naughty boy' comments which she did't get angry about but responded to. This morning I got up and saw her just before she and D10 were leaving. I was in my short shorts and a sweatshirt and talked for about 5 minutes about their day then she left. I did't linger of even act like I had any desire for her.
Most books I have on relationships (and many other people on the board have) talk about how 'anticipation' and men who are 'confident' are turn ons. They like to chase and be challenged by a man. If she thinks she COULD have me but I don't care either way well, then she's got to be thinking about it in a more serious way.
Months ago my Counselor said something like this might happen and I haven't believed her. I still think that W will talk to her girlfriends who 'support' her and they will talk her out of doing anything. Especially her B*tch one who has no relationship and no chance of one and doesn't like me at all. Either way she has to reconcile in her mind whether or not it would be 'ok' to do anything. What would she 'feel'? Would it be awkward? Is it 'just sex'?
I know that my actions are to be somewhat indifferent but now she has given me 'permission' to be seductive and get away with it. That's new and I'll take advantage of it until she withdraws again.
Like you said, and women will agree with, sex isn't just 'physical' with women. It carries a lot of emotions and it would be too much to hope for with her because it could be an opening to changing the dynamics of this mess we're in.
But, she needs to initiate it or I will be perceived as pursuing her. She hasn't done that yet, she has just RECOGNIZED the feelings of lust. I'll do whatever little actions I can to build up some 'anticipation' for her and hope for the best but also still keep my distance and detachment.
Thank you for giving me the links to all your threads. I thought I had found all of them previously but was miskaken; I went ahead and did take the time to read everything.
You certainly have made the best and most loving choices you could in an extraordinarily difficult situation. I can't imagine what this is like. It's like you are being asked by the Universe (and yourself!) to be the proverbial Rock of Gibralter while also agreeing to let yourself be as open and vulnerable as possible. It certainly must have felt that you've been in an emotional hurricane for a long time now. I'm saddened by your W's reaction to your depression. I don't think my H has ever really forgiven (?!) me or regained his respect for me after my own bout with it...you know and I know there is a point in depression when the ill person has no control over their reactions and needs the help of those who love them. My H also feels like he did everything to help me, but a great deal of the time it only served to make things worse or preserved the status quo, totally leaving me to pick up the pieces by myself. My work has now been to move away from victim mentality and forgive both the H and myself. He only started to feel sorry for me - love lost at that moment! - and stayed, afraid I might kill myself - sounds familiar, I'm sure.
Enough about me. I agree with bj... you are extremely fortunate in your choice of C. It sounds like most of your W's reactions and stages have been correctly anticipated by her. So...I think you may be able to put some more of the pieces of the puzzle of your W's current behavior together by using the C's thoughts. Your C said to expect that she would, at some point, have physical attraction and feelings for you again. What did your C say about the best 'stance' you could take in such situations - I mean for your own sake? I think you're right about women generally having emotional connections when having sex. Wouldn't this be good? Or, would your W's possible backlash (out of guilt, resistance to going back to the M?) be too painful? Again, what did the C suggest with regard to your choices and reaction to this situation?
So...what IS the story about D and your W? Is she grasping at it thinking it is going to make her feel in control of her life? Is she dancing around it, not really knowing how she feels? What are your thoughts (and again, what would your C say?)?
Quote: It's like you are being asked by the Universe (and yourself!) to be the proverbial Rock of Gibralter while also agreeing to let yourself be as open and vulnerable as possible.
That's a good description, it's certainly how I feel, and how my Counselor would describe this. And add 'get myself out of the rut I've been in for the past many years'. One thing my C has said, from the very beginning, is that IF we do bring our marriage back together again it will be because of WHAT I DO, and who I am. I've asked her so many times 'why me?' and she says 'because YOU can do this'. She has told me repeatedly that she would tell me straight out if she felt there was no hope for us. I remember about 2 weeks ago I practically begged her to let me give up, it hurt so bad to absorb all that I was absorbing from W, kids, everybody, and still putting on a strong front. She said 'give me 3 more weeks with W in counseling before you give up'. Well, it's been about 1 1/2 weeks so far.
Quote: you know and I know there is a point in depression when the ill person has no control over their reactions and needs the help of those who love them. My H also feels like he did everything to help me, but a great deal of the time it only served to make things worse or preserved the status quo, totally leaving me to pick up the pieces by myself.
Wow, you're the first person to describe my feelings for the past years so accurately. Add in drinking to 'feel better' and you described our life, and the main problem why I stayed 'stuck' so long. I actually realize that if W had STOPPED doing anything and pushed my survival buttons, and if I had a good counselor, I would have stood back up on my own. I did it in the past, I could do it again. Actually, right NOW I am doing it. I just needed to be left alone for a while.
Quote: He only started to feel sorry for me - love lost at that moment! - and stayed, afraid I might kill myself - sounds familiar, I'm sure.
That's what W says, she was 'afraid to leave me' but she also says she does love me, or to quote her a week ago during the 'fight' we had "I've loved you for 20 years, I don't know how to NOT love you".
Quote: you are extremely fortunate in your choice of C. It sounds like most of your W's reactions and stages have been correctly anticipated by her.
She's been close, it's the timings that are off and the exact nature of W's choices. C says that many women go through this kind of thing, usually when their first child reaches adolescence. They have been a mother and a wife and need to reaffirm their 'womanhood' and independence. So they go on these 'journeys'. Add the problems we have and the hurt and anger W feels about them and you have our life. I wrote a whole long post on this a while back.
Quote: Your C said to expect that she would, at some point, have physical attraction and feelings for you again. What did your C say about the best 'stance' you could take in such situations - I mean for your own sake? I think you're right about women generally having emotional connections when having sex. Wouldn't this be good?
C said a bunch of things in the first week of this journey, which seems like years ago... Expect W to come to your room some nite and want to sleep with you, expect her to get hurt in this OM fantasy relationship and want you to make her feel better (Don't, she said, let her deal with her mistakes). Neither of these things has happened yet but the 'attraction' was new.
The 'physical attraction' yesterday was explained by her as her thinking that sex would relieve a lot of tension in her life, and her body NEEDS sex and she's not getting any (me either). But then she went on to say how so many people think we are already the 'weirdest' divorcing couple they know because we live together and of the things we do in public. It was kind of in the vein of 'so, why stop now, might as well have sex too'.
C said it could be a door back to intimacy, but to make sure I read her correctly. So I left the door open and detached.
Personally, I think W will push it out of her head, it's a very big risk for her to get that close to me. As she said 'after all we've been through, how could we do it?' It would be awkward for sure since she cut off all physical contact on October 31, then threw all kinds of anger at me, told all her friends how glad she was she was done with me, then started pursuing 'OM' via e-mail and cell phone till she ultimatly went to see him for a weekend and has been 'in love' ever since. But as we know, he is a predator and is just playing with her. And it has already gone through some ups and downs in the past few weeks so I have no idea where that's at. He was last claiming to fly out for a visit in late february...
Quote: So...what IS the story about D and your W? Is she grasping at it thinking it is going to make her feel in control of her life? Is she dancing around it, not really knowing how she feels? What are your thoughts (and again, what would your C say?)?
C says right now she is trying to discover herself, and who she can be without me, without the commitment of marriage. Without the 'responsibility' for me, for the kids. Her model for marriage, which was her Grandmothers model I mentioned a couple days ago, had a woman give up her 'self' for her marriage. I never demanded that of her, I never expected that of her. She just did it that way on her own. And, she had no experience living with the kind of life I've lived, 'type A' with huge ups and downs. The highs are REALLY high and the lows are really low but it's never dull and always exciting during the highs. I always wanted her to find herself while in the marriage. It was ME I didn't care about the last several years.
So, getting a divorce means 'freedom' from being responsible for me. Freedom to find men who share her interests and look for that 'deep loving relationship' she thought she had found with OM. She thinks she has to have it, and that since she is not 'in love' with me but has successfully shut off her feelings for me then our life together is over forever.
Except, as our Counselor says to me:
-- I don't need her to take care of me, in fact I never needed her to. And recently I TOLD her that. So now one of the reasons for D has been removed.
-- Being 'in love' with OM was / is a fantasy. He's a poor example of a stable person, 2 ex wives, dumps his girlfried after meeting W, needs to 'change his environment' so he wants to move here to be 'closer' to W but he has no real way to do it as far as I can tell. He morphs into whatever she wants him to be. Also, C says that W is starting to question his sincerity. So, finding a man with 'similar interests' hasn't been a real success.
-- I've been strong and stable since day 1. Did not pursue, did not fight, kept the household together, kept strong for the kids. Stopped drinking. Somehow got out of depression. Sure, I hurt every day but I don't let it show. So, 'frank NEEDS me, will die without me' and 'frank will never stop drinking' and 'frank is always depressed and angry' are now no longer valid divorce reasons.
-- I spend a lot of time with my kids. Before, I hardly knew them. Now, D15 and I have a great relationship. For a long time she only trusted me and didn't trust W at all, she said so to W in family counseling. D10 also started coming to ME during the first couple months. She just didnt't get the support from W and also said so. So, 'frank is depressed, has no family connection' is defeated. Another justification for Divorce is being erased.
And, I say NO more often. I don't just go along with whatever she says regarding the kids, or other things that I just don't agree with. I used to 'let her decide' a lot of stuff.
C says W sees that I did NOT stay where I was, that I moved forward, and under the worst possible circumstances. And she HAS to notice the incongruities between what she believed was always going to be true about me, and what is now true. She remembers me as I was when we got married. She sees me right now as becoming more than that man ever was.
All these little things she 'notices', the way I drive with her, the time I spend with the kids, I eat healthy, I exercise. They don't fit her model of 'who frank is'.
And her biggest issue of being an 'independent' woman with her own business and her own life independent of me, and the family. Well, she still lives with me and the family. She still gets up in the morning and does the same routines with the kids. She still shops for groceries and goes to kids events - with ME.
She IS starting her business, but ONLY because she is living under the umbrella of the 'marriage' so she has the financial flexibility to take this kind of risk. And, all the things about me that she was running away from are gone. So it's slowly become a contradiction that she needs to be 'free and divorced' to do all these things she wants to do. She is actually MORE free by being in the marriage, in the family.
So, the 'reasons' for divorce are gray now. She may actually realize that she could have done her business and all the the other things she thinks she wants as part of her 'freedom', while still in the marriage. It was her choices that kept us both where we were.
So, to answer your question, YES she wants a divorce because she thinks it's needed for her to be independent, and also that she isn't 'in love' with me any more but still 'loves me'. She thinks she can't ever be married again because it will cause her to lose herself to a man again.
But hopefully she will see that isn't true, and that 'in love' is not 'real love'. What I've been doing for her and for myself and our kids is 'real love'. And if she can feel it again, all the other 'deep' love feelings can be felt too. And that's the one thing I have no control over, nor can anyone tell her to feel this way. She has to decide to, and she may not want to.
Quote: With admiration for your hard work, Kaly
Thanks Kaly. I hope that my W sees what I've done to help preserve 'us' and 'family' after so many years of crap. Regardless, I will be ok and so will my kids.
