It's so hard to have compassion for someone when they have hurt you so deeply...I know as the LBS. As I have said in previous posts, I am also the equivelent of your wife in the M dynmamics dept...I didn't run to someone else. But I did become the burden in our relationship. Why? Because I lost myself in trying to make things work in all the wrong ways and then finding I had nothing left to give. Ask yourself if your wife started out in your marriage knowing who she was. I did. I was strong, I loved myself, and I was sure that my husband and I could work it out. Our individual issues grew too "loud" to be ignored, but...rather than finding healing, we both 'hacked' away at what wasn't working, trying the same old things,...only harder and eventually creating such damage to one another. So...maybe your wife didn't always take from you, but you two developed an imbalance of power and she, too became a burden. I may be way off on this, but if not, try in your pain to have compassion on the woman who may have lost her 'inner Pamela'...believe me...that hurts like hell, too.
Quote: So...maybe your wife didn't always take from you, but you two developed an imbalance of power and she, too became a burden. I may be way off on this, but if not, try in your pain to have compassion on the woman who may have lost her 'inner Pamela'...believe me...that hurts like hell, too.
Kaly, thanks for taking the time to write. I believe you are absolutely right. I think my latest posts are coming across as me being a bit uncaring. I need to slow down a bit. I do have compassion for her and what she is going through, especially tonite. I need to slow down. Something is changing.
She just came into my office all upset. She told me that she was upset because she had been thinking about her Grandmother and her Grandfather and how their relationship was indicative of her life. Her grandmother is a very sweet and passive person, while her grandfather was a very strong and angry man. when he was alive.
She said she wished she didn't have to go through this transition in her life but she couldn't stay the way she was. She just stood there for a moment then started to cry a little. I asked her if there was anything I could do. She said no. I waited a moment and then said "Would you like a hug?" and she said yes so I went to her and held her. She sobbed hard and shook. She put her head on my shoulder and I held her while she sobbed. After a moment I said "I love you Lorri". She said "I just wish this didn't have to hurt so much". I waited a moment and then I said "Sometimes you do get a second chance". She didn't say anything as she sobbed for another minute, then she said "thank you" and I let her go. She left the room.
I almost cried, but I didn't. Now I feel so sad for her. It tears me up to see her hurting.
I think she hurts because she has made a decision that she can't love me again. That her only choice is to be divorced. I don't know. I don't think she knows.
Time to cry a little, then go back to 'detached'. Sadly, I know I will be ok now. I'm back. I don't need her any more, but I sure do miss her. I sure do love her. I'm back now. It's finally over. I made it. 6 years of hurt and sadness and despair are finally over. I pulled myself up out of that awful place on my own. I did it. I can move forward now.
I don't know what to do right now. I really don't. It feels good because I don't HAVE TO KNOW what to do. I can just BE.
Tomorrow will be an interesting day. Couples counseling will be very different tomorrow.
Interesting to see you are still on the coaster a bit, but it seems like you have a LOT more control now over your emotions. I am starting to believe that none of us here who have made the commitment to suffer through the lies, betrayal, perceived disrespect and all the other garbage that comes with our WAS doing what they're doing, will ever totally detach in the face of our spouses potential change of heart. Hope went through it, you are, I did yesterday, Rob is doing it. We all detach with certain degrees of success but after so much pain we are much better at insulating ourselves from negative energy from our WAS. When we are presented with anything positive, we still often revert back to our old non-detached selves. Is it that no matter what we begin to think in our mind about how we don't like who they've become, or that we're ready to move on, we are still harboring hope somewhere that they will come back? Can we, or should we ever extinguish this flame of hope? If we do, doesn't that really go against who we all are. Sure, some of us may have started as codependent people suddenly ripped of our support system but many of us are beyond that. Some of us are just willing to see the positives in a situation that seems full of negatives. In any event, we should all have answered that question early on "Do I need her/him, or do I love her/him?" The answer may change for you over time, it did for me. Frank, I see you as one of the more compassionate, spiritually connected people on these boards and I believe that no matter how far along in this process you get, you will always have a place in your heart for your W. I, for one, do not think that is altogether bad because it is true to who you are. A lot like people that say that if we give up our freedoms, then the terrorists have won, I feel like if we give up our capacity to love these WAS of ours, we have let THEM change us in a fundamental way. If they leave for good, we still stayed true to our belief in love, honor, commitment and growth. That is my hope, that I can come out of this with those beliefs intact because it would be so easy to do otherwise. That is my hope for all of us.
Well, Grasshopper, that was totally profound. It described the paradox of our situation to a "T". I agree that when you love unconditionally, you love unconditionally and that it doesn't just go away. This unconditional love has nothing to do with need, the ego, co-dependency...it is what is left over when these things burn away. It is painful when unrequited. But it remains for those of use who have chosen the path of love in our lives. We struggle in the meantime NOT to let our needs put us in the path of getting hurt again, and the old angers about A, OW/OM, percieved grievances from the past, etc flair up, scare us and demand our attention until we put them back in their place...by letting go.
Frank, it doesn't matter a damn what I think of you! (I have a great respect and admiration for your capacity to love and grow, FYI!)...so it wasn't me thinking 'look how uncaring he is when talking about his wife'. Not in the least. What I was thinking was that your anger and hurt were going to both suffocate you and threaten to distort your feelings about your marriage and your wife and how things 'went down' in the breakdown stages of the marriage. That is all. Whenever I feel like 're-writing' the history of my marriage - inaccurately ascribing fault to either myself or to my H - I find the picture gets distorted and I no longer can see where my path torwards health and life lies. I may have been way off base thinking that was going on with you - you could have just been venting for heaven's sake and if we can't do that here, where CAN we do it?!
I hope your C session goes well and you find a healthy balance within yourself of loving, going on with your life, and hoping for a re-connection with your W, if open to you. I'll be thinking of this C session today, sending up some prayers to the Universe on your behalf. Love, Kaly
Had couples counseling. Remember that the stated purpose of these meetings are to work out issues with kids, us, etc...
While we were waiting in the waiting room, W was talkative and 'up'. Then she says to me, in a very matter-of-fact voice:
W: When do you think we should file?
I am surprised
Me: That's YOUR thing, not mine. You do what you feel you need to do when you need it to happen. W: I thought YOU wanted a divorce too? You said the other day that you thought we should be divorced and that you could never trust me with your heart again?
Right then counselor came to call us in to session.
So, in the session W tells C and I that D15 has been talking to her about sex, and her boyfriend and what she thinks she should or should not do. Anyway we spend a lot of the session on that topic as W says that it what has been bothering her so much the past couple days. I had no idea of course.
We do talk about the comments she made about her grandmother and stuff last nite. C does help her to see that it's all about choices that you make in a marriage, and in relationships. Overall some good points are made by C that everything is a choice. Also, she gets W to talk about what kind of example are we setting for D15 as far as 'marriage' goes but W kind of avoids any possible negativity other than 'we are showing her that she should choose better when she does get married, don't lose herself in a relationship'. C does a good job expanding on 'losing yourself' theme.
W shows almost no upset when discussing 'filing', says she bought a book about divorcing and hasn't had time to read it yet. We do end up deciding it's not a rush, as she has enough problems starting up her business right now. I explain that I wanted a 'divorce' from the old marriage and that I said I didn't trust her with my heart partly because she had hurt me and I wanted to hurt her. C makes some points about how part of being in this 'new' relationship as parents, divorcees, whatever, is being honest about feelings and stuff and that we are developing a totally new way of communicating with each other. C says that often couples learn to communicate BETTER after they separate than they did in the marriage.
I get a chance to say my part, which is that I do not NEED her any more. I talk a little about how much I did not like that she NEEDED me so much. She's pretty calm, neutral. I think she can see that I really am ok without her which is an issue that C said needed to be brought to the front. I don't get any feeling from W one way or the other, she's pretty calm. I DO take a moment to say to W that I recognize the woman she is becoming, that I see real strength and determination and that I have a hard time with that because I actually find it attractive. I told her I have a lot of respect for her, and that in a weird way I would like to get to know her better.
I pointed out that W actually GAVE ME A MASSAGE today. She had a client cancel and she was 'all set up' she said, offered D15 one and when D15 said no, she asked ME. I was shocked and accepted. And unlike months ago where I would be shut down or 'distant' I allowed her to make a connection to me and she said she could feel it. She said that she treated me like a client, instead of thinking she had to 'fix' me or worry about me in any way and she felt a lot better. It was excellent of course but I was wanting more. Sigh. But W DID feel emotionally connected then.
C does say to W that she needs to understand that I am not as 'advanced' in this 'journey' as W is because I've had to deal with the hurt, while she has been doing what she wants for herself for the past 3 months. Working towards independence, divorce, whatever. I have been dealing with finacials, kids emotions and all that stuff and I am just now 'catching up' in my emotional place and taking time to actually take care of myself now.
On the drive home we talked more about getting to know each other again, and I think she was a little annoyed because I really couldn't explain what I wanted to be different. I did say that I felt that after the massage today I was willing to be more vulnerable with her instead of protecting myself like I have been. She said that it seems like things are changing between us right now and we'll just see what happens.
And this was odd, she said that she noticed I 'drive differently' now. She said I was more conscientious. I told her I'm that way with HER because I know that she likes to feel safe with me and I wasn't very respectful of that before. She said she has noticed several times while driving with me, especially on the Kayaking trip with the high winds and stuff.
Another odd thing is her girlfriend is coming to visit the weekend I am away (Feb 11th) and W said that she was looking forward to sleeping in my (our) bed since I'll be gone and she's been sleeping on a fold out bed for the past 3 months. She didn't 'ask' she just said "I'm gonna" and laughed. That was surprising.
So, what I got today was that she is moving forward with her life as a single woman, but recognizes that she still depends on me for financial support until she can get her business off the ground. She's happy with her direction now, she is comfortable with the idea of getting divorced and is ready to be proactive. She sees a lot of change in me and we both see that we are different now. And, we're wiping the slate clean and not holding sins of the past over our heads. That in our living situation it's OK for her or me to ask for what we want, if we need support, a hug or anything like that.
I can't even describe this in any way that makes sense any more. Divorced but not, friends but not, emotional support but not, changed but still the same. Getting to know the 'new' each other but keeping our distance. She still talks to me with a tone of voice like I'm just 'a guy', 'Frank this' and Frank that'. I miss the 'sweetie' days. She is comfortable with divorcing me. It's what she wants to get her 'freedom' to be who she wants to be.
I guess I still will 'detach' but when I am present, be more 'me' and less 'protected me'. I don't know if the detaching of the past few days made a difference or not. It hurts a little tonite, I guess I was hoping for a shift but it hasn't happened. If anything it's just moved forward. But I know I'll be OK with or without her. Gotta stop getting my hopes up like I do after I see her upset, and think she is reconsidering her decisions. She isn't.
Well, the afternoon / evening has been 'coordial' I guess. W has been ok to be with, somewhat neutral to a little joking at times. She needed some help with computer stuff and asked me, and sat with me while I did some things for her. It's kind of like knowing someone you don't really feel totally comfortable around but you're doing your best.
She doesn't back off if we touch, and I get a sense that she's just trying to see if she can feel 'ok' around me, joke a little and still be divorced, single, not married, whatever. She's in a 'cautious' emotional state. I think I let myself get a little too close to her last nite and a bit today.
I was talking to a friend tonite, wondering where the 'love' goes when they leave the marriage. It's in there somewhere, but it's not going to return because we WANT it to. Only when we don't want it to will it be possible. So, I need to stay the course for my life and continue to be detached. Got too hopeful today and that is not the place to be right now. Take care of ME.
D10 is having major problems at school. W was talking about holding her back a grade because she is 'too young', her birthday is in september so she's younger than most kids in her grade. A quitters mentality, I don't accept that any more, she is MY daughter and I know she has that inner strength, she just needs to discover it. The real issue as I see it is her self esteem is damaged because she has a teacher who expects students to be very organized at that age, and she just isn't doing it very well and he gives NO slack to anyone. She misses homework because she forgets to bring books home or forgets she has assignments. So she get's extra assignments to 'make up points' and she ends up not getting much free time because of this.
As I see it, she has one man in her life (teacher) who is setting too high expectations for her, and she needs help. So, I'm going to take her to school and pick her up all next week, and make sure we don't forget books and other materials she needs so she stays caught up. She needs to be lifted back up emotionally, and as the most important man in her life I need to help her to do that. She needs me, and I'm HERE, not lost any more. I'll give her some of my strength.
On another note, sometimes I stop and think about how great it would be just to sit on the couch with W, next to each other and just have that loving human contact, of just being together. Not even a hug, just leaning on each other, just touching would be enough for me. It would feel so good. She hasn't had that for a couple months either, I wonder if she ever thinks of that when she's sitting alone at nite, like she is right now, watching TV. I wonder if she thinks of me that way? She doesn't seem to be lonely but she's only got a distant OM to hold on to, and I'm here, and I'm real.
frank, I just finished catching up with your sitch. Looks like you had a rough time, but have come up better off. I too realized the whole *need* dynamic that my W has. Once I realized what was going on I could only have pity for her, that she needs me. I think she has realized that she could lose some of the security I provide; with respect to health insurance should I remarry. This has her very scared, but sh acts calm. I agree with you whole-heartedly about the WASs needing. Once we realize that we no longer need, or even want, our WASs, then we are home free as far as detaching. Until they no longer need us they will stay in lala land. They need us but dont want us and this makes them angry. What has to happen is that they stop needing and start to want us again, without needing. Like your exGF Pamela. In their current state they are unattractive to us. It is when we want each other again, if that ever happens, that we will get back together. I have been contemplating this aspect of Rs for the past two weeks and find it ironic you see the same. Then you know what they... great minds think alike .
Quote: They need us but dont want us and this makes them angry. What has to happen is that they stop needing and start to want us again, without needing. Like your exGF Pamela. In their current state they are unattractive to us. It is when we want each other again, if that ever happens, that we will get back together.
Yes, and right now my W doesn't think she 'needs' me but I really don't know how she reconciles the fact that, while she is still living in the house with me, she is in a better financial position so she can get her business off the ground than if she were to get an apt. She KNOWS this to be true.
It's hard to make it come across in our postings but my W is not crazy or scatterbrained, she's actually doing a good job getting organized and getting her massage business started up.
She was very excited today since this is the day she got her workspace finally. She's setting things up and when I spoke to her at dinner (she made a quick dinner for just me and her) she was happy, and worried she wouldn't make enough money. I told her I have a lot of confidence in her and she said she did too, but was nervous.
She kind of paused in the middle of our conversation and told me about going for a little hike today and sitting on a hill enjoying some quiet time, and how it helps her start her day right. Then she got quiet, looked down at the table and said that she feels herself going through a spiritual change in her life. She seemed uncomfortable and didn't look at me when she said this. My first thought was that she was moving farther from me, but then I remember that when she last thought OM was out of the picture she had a similar reaction when she said something to me about it. So, I'll think that she is realizing that OM is not the answer to her growth. But she probably thinks neither am I.
Now, before she said this we had been talking, joking, making lots of eye contact and I felt some connecting. She was also a little 'flirty'. In fact I was looking at her thinking how much I loved her for what she is becoming in spite of the hurt. Maybe I was smiling too much? Too much eye contact?
We took D10 and a friend to 'bingo nite' at her school. Sat next to each other and across the table from a couple we didn't know very well but were very nice. W was joking and flirty with me and we were making fun of each other as we played our cards. She got up and bought some treats, brownies and cookies and gave me the brownie. I said it tasted kind of weird and she had me 'feed' her a bite. We were inches away from each others face. We laughed about it. We shared little smiles, looks and other stuff for a few more minutes.
Then the woman across from us said 'It will be a real test of your marriage if one of you wins the Bingo game against the other!'. Wow. Pain went through me and I'm know W felt uncomfortable too. We kept playing the game and smiling but the fun and flirtyness ended. She got up in a few minutes and went to go sit with another friend and didn't come back till it was time for us to leave.
Now we're home, back in our own spaces again. When I saw her a few minutes ago she was being very pleasant and joked with me about something, I forget what.
So she comes out of her shell, keeps me at arms length but plays with me and is flirty. Then she totally crashes away. If you were to ask her I'm SURE she would say she's "trying to build a great friendship with me, and nothing more".
I feel like crap. I did it again, I let her get too close to me so she could withdraw again and I got hurt. I do not understand her at all. Why does she do this? Just naive about how to be a friend to a soon to be ex husband? What?
This is such a rollercoaster ride. I have GOT to stay away from her for a few days for my own mental health.
Is there any way you can find time to actually physically get away...soon? Like to a meditation retreat or even to a hotel where you can have quiet time/meditation for yourself for a day or two? For you own mental/emotional health, please take this into consideration. Are you afraid that if you let your W know that you are doing this, she will "see thru you" and think "hey, he's not doing as well as he says?". You know, you have every right -and an obvious need - to say "I need to take care of me!". I am responding with such fervor because I just went to the breaking point recently, trying to control my emotions, feeling too much like I was walking on eggshells, internally SURE that if I made ONE mistake, it was all over (although I denied it consciously!), trying to be a fabulous human being to the point of strain, for heavnen's sake. Take a well-deserved Time Out!
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