I've been doing some looking into 'Emotional Predators'. My Counselor believes that OM is an Emotional Predator. I found this interesting stuff. You may find the OM or OW in these descriptions...
This web page has some interesting descriptions of various types of predators: Predators
From "How to Avoid a Dangerous Man before you get involved" by Sandra L. Brown
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Red Alert Behavioral Checklist
The emotional predator:
has a natural instinct for sensing vulnarable or "sensitive" women
senses women with low self esteem
senses women who want or require relationships in order to feel needed or fulfilled
senses women who are bored, lonely, or needy
senses women who are on the rebound from having been recently dumped, divorced, emotionally ignored, or wounded
senses women's body and eye language
listens closely to what a woman says in order to pick up clues he can use in later conversations
senses unfulfilled physical intimacy needs and sexual needs
creates a sense of fun and mystique to draw you in
is smooth and seems to have all the right lines and insights into you
comes on fast and strong and sweeps you off your feet
is overly interested in every detail of your life
wants to move in together or get married quickly
implies that he "knows" you well before he has spent enough time to really get to know you
pushes you to quickly disclose a lot about yourself to him
tries to fulfill your physical, financial, or emotional needs
seeks to fill roles in your life, such as advisor, father figure, spiritual leader, mentor
is overly helpful, comforting and understanding
has the exact same interests, values, hobbies, etc that you do
is a chameleon who can be all things to all people
Frank, I realize your post is to the world at large, but thanks.
Great list--most interesting. It really made me think about some of the creeps my W has been haning out with--it never made sense to me, but if that's their focus/agenda, it makes a ton of sense now.
Frank do you think it is pushing it if i copy that and tape it my W mirror in the morning! That describes the OM my W is seeing exactly! How do I know because when we were supposedly "recouncilling" she shared almost every intimate detail about the a55hole! She might as well have been reading the list when she was talking to me! I know it is controlling but how do we get our W to read something like this?
Tim
my story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1049617&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Ok, to play devil's advocate, that list also describes pretty well the way a person will act when they're "in love" with someone. In the early days we all do some of those things when that other person can do no wrong, things they are into, all of a sudden we are into, etc. I admit the sensing vulnerable women part sets them aside, but if my W read that list she would probably list many of those things a POSITIVE attributes of her OM...go figure!
Quote: Ok, to play devil's advocate, that list also describes pretty well the way a person will act when they're "in love" with someone. In the early days we all do some of those things when that other person can do no wrong, things they are into, all of a sudden we are into, etc. I admit the sensing vulnerable women part sets them aside, but if my W read that list she would probably list many of those things a POSITIVE attributes of her OM...go figure!
GH
Sure, I agree with you it does seem like 'in love' - at first. But that's what the author of the book is trying to point out - look for the warning signs of manipulation after a week of 'in love' has become 'relationship building'. In any relationship you should be asking questions about the person, their life, habits, hobbies. These are warning signs to look for.
This statement: pushes you to quickly disclose a lot about yourself to him Has a corollary that may not be obvious but was in the list: creates a sense of fun and mystique to draw you in
Which, said another way is: Gives little detail about themself or their real life.
This seems to describe OM in my case. He 'knows' W from a previous life, remember? She asks him questions about his life and he doesn't give meaningful answers. And, he appears to have been living off his girlfriend for 3 years till she kicked him out and he is now (at 39) living with Mommy.
One other thing of interest in my case anyway re: chameleons. This guy was a drywall installler for years before he met his last GF around 2003. She is a trained massage therapist. Ok. Since meeting her / living with her HE is now a massage therapist. They went to Hawaii to 'work on the relationship' as part of the retreat to learn this 'Lomi' technique. W IS a dedicated pratitioner already and now he is amazingly, dedicated to this even though he probably is barely a massage therapist with any real experience. And, most opinions are GF paid for the trip ($2,000 each).
Chameleon?
I know W questioned his sincerity in early January. But he sucked her back in.
I wasn't going to post tonite, actually I had been planning on going silent for a while but I wanted to share some thoughts that I TRIED to talk to Spitfire about but kept getting defocused so I couldn't be clear. (Sorry!)
First off, When looking in W's room for a book she asked me to find I noticed she had a 'How to prepare for divorce' book, with advice on financial planning and filing and stuff. It even comes with a CD of various legal forms! Pretty Cool! Must be a recent purchase, didn't look like it had been looked at yet. Can't help but think that when her B*tch friend came over the weekend she brought it as a 'gift', to help her out of course. Or someone suggested she get it, you know, to 'prepare'. She just isn't they type to think of this on her own. But then I never thought she'd have an OM either... Will wonders never cease?
Anyway, I saw Counselor today. For the most part I was in the mood of 'this has to end' meaning my constant 'reaction' to her 'actions'. I have to disconnect.
We talked again about how when I was 'down' the past few years that she didn't help. I then started to realize that she didn't 'help' because she was a 'taker' like everyone else around me had been. She got much of her self worth from me, and had nothing to give me back when I was running on empty. In fact, she was a drain on me and was pulling me down when I needed to be pulled up. More clarity as to the WHY and HOW of getting where I was.
Getting back to 'disconnecting', it is abundantly clear that me not detaching or disconnecting is holding ME back. My feelings of being tired of fighting are all because I have spent the past 3 months holding us all together, and W has been taking from me STILL. It's time to stop, and give to me now. C says that I MUST detach because I'm still giving W the energy and support she needs while she lives in La La land. And it's draining ME. It has to stop because I can't move forward till it does.
In W's mind, she believes she is totally detached from me. She's getting divorced because 'the grass is greener out there' and she thinks and feels I 'need' her. Until she truly believes I am no longer dependent on her for anything and no longer PROTECTING her from anything she will have a warped view of life, because she can live in La La land but still have 'security'. Both financial and emotional, all the while pretending that I NEED HER and she doesn't NEED ME.
W's journey is part learning how to support herself, part being a woman and being a sexual being. She is very lost and confused because she didn't grow up I guess. Anyway, C feels that she is going to have to get really hurt 'out there' before she has an appreciation for what we had, and how she failed to protect it. To protect us.
C made some comments on W's attitude after the fight last week. W admitted that she said some things that were wrong to me. C told her she needs to stop dragging the past into our discussions, we need to start with a clean slate. W indicated to C that she was starting to 'question' OM's motivation for wanting to move, but only a little...
We have a couples session Thursday and C and I have agreed to drive the conversation towards ME verbalizing MY desire for her to be OUT of my life. That I do not want to help her, take care of her, protect her or anything else. The goal being that by me saying (actually agreeing to whatever C thinks should be said) what I want to do with my life WITHOUT W, it will help ME to disconnect by verbalizing, and it will force HER to see that I HAVE disconnected, that she does NOT have that 'security' she thinks she has. That she HAS HURT ME in ways that are nothing close to how she says I hurt her. She just doesn't get it because I have kept it inside. All our sessions have been about how hurt she is, how bad her life was, how awful I was, blah blah blah. It's time to balance out the story.
Then as we live together under the new 'environment' it will free me to move forward without having to 'hold everyone together'. It will change the dynamics of our interactions as she will have to realize that she doesn't have me anymore. And, she doesn't. I don't want to take care of her any more. I need a break. Everyone in the family is in a stable place now so I can stop giving and step back a bit and just give to me.
I can't believe what I've been through the past 3 months. It seems like years. The kids hurting, the fighting between D15 and W (acting 17). The total hurt and sadness of D10. W pursuing OM, then losing OM and hurting, then pursuing OM again. And me not being able to show my pain to any of them so they could all feel safe, Dad's here, he's strong, we'll all be ok. While Dads crying in his room every nite alone wondering how he'll get throught tomorrow, not drinking, still in depression. Oh Boy! Especially dealing with W, while all the things she did were hurting me I was still there for her. I wonder if she'll ever understand?
So, Thursday will be our day of reckoning, of restoring balance to the 'relationship'. Thursday will be the day she learns that she has also lost me. True detachment. C says by doing this we can also compress the time it will take for her to grow up.
The thing is, I feel ok about it. I've had enough and I KNOW that I am not just back 'in the world' but I 'am the world'. It is within each of us, we are our world. I really have no idea if she and I will ever have a marriage together. I'd like to if it's possible, but I won't die if it doesn't happen. There actually are women in the world who would like to meet me some day. Many of them took better care of their bodies than W did too...
Before I met W I had dated a girl named Pamela for about a year. She graduated from college and we went to europe with her friends for a month that summer (1985). When we got back she moved to Ohio (I lived in NY). I flew to see here eery few weeks but eventually she had to let me go because it was too lonely without me and I wasn't ready to commit yet. She wasn't mean or anything when she broke it off with me but it took a couple years for me to get over her. Of all the girls I knew, she was really hard to let go. I never realized why until lately. It was because she didn't need me. Pamela didn't need ANYBODY. She loved me dearly, but she didn't need me. She knew who she was, and she would lead as easily as she would follow my lead. That was powerful stuff.
Maybe W will learn this lesson. In spite of all of this, I still see in my dreams she and I together, because I think we are much more together than we are apart. That dream doesn't go away no matter how much she hurts me. But it isn't going to happen until she learns to get what Pamela already had.
It's 11:00 PM and She just came in my room a moment ago while I was typing all this to tell me something funny about D10. She was smiling at me as she talked. I looked at her and I just saw a stranger. A stranger I didn't really like. I tried to smile, and did a little but I just couldn't. I just wanted her to leave. Go. I don't think she sensed how I felt, or maybe she did. She turned and left the room and said 'good nite'. I didn't say anything. I just didn't want to. She's downstairs watching TV. She only does that lately at nite when something is bothering her. Otherwise she usually reads.
So, I'm one step closer to the goal. I see it out there, it calls to me. It isn't to 'save my marriage'. It's something that is much more than that, and this is just the first step.
This morning W came into my room to say something meaningless. I smiled at her, joked a moment and then went back to what I was doing. I felt the slight pain you feel when you wonder if you said or did anything to make things 'worse'. But it only lasted a minute or two. I've totally stopped 'worrying' about the 'divorce' book I found out she had last nite. I have other things on my mind today that are more imporant than worrying about her and what she may or may not do.
Well this afternoon I wnet to W's room and gave her the spreadsheet with the household expenses she agreed to pay on it so she would know the breakdown, and what her half is (about $900).
She looked at me and said "I can't Pay this right now, I don't have any money" and I reminded her that it was OK because I had told her to pay what she could for the next 3 months while she got her business started. I said that I just wanted her to have the numbers since it was the beginning of February.
She started to cry. I asked her what's wrong, she said 'nothing I want to talk about'.
Normally, I would say 'ok, if you need someone to talk to I'm here', or I would linger and push 'are you sure? can I help?'.
I said. 'ok', turned and left the room.
There are only two topics she will not talk to me about:
(1) Issues with OM. (2) Issues with her feelings about me and going through with a divorce.
Anything else she would talk about.
I noticed that the poem I had written her for Xmas was not on the shelf where it had been in her room. Spitfire mentioned to me that it was the divorce book plus the poem being 'put away' that all happened after this last weekend, when B*tch friend visited. I'm willing to bet the 'late nite talk' they had was about Divorce and stuff, probably 'friend' bought her the book. That would be like her.
Anyway, a few minutes later I left the house and went somewhere and talked to Spitfire for an hour or so rebuilding my 'detaching' strength. (Thanks Spitfire!).
Went home just in time for dinner. W was in the famliy room with D10 eating their dinner so I got some, went in the dining room and sat. 2 minutes later she comes and sits. She says: "Are you ok?", I answer "I'm fine!" and smile. Then I keep eating and sort of ignore her. I see out of the corner of my eye that she is looking at me so I look up, make eye contact and smile. She smiles. I eat. I look up again, she is still looking at me, I make eye contact and smile. Finally she speaks:
W: Your hair is looking more 'salt and pepper' now, instead of brown with gray spots. It makes you look distinguished. I hadn't noticed it before.
Me: (smiling) Yeah, it need to be cut too. I'm sure I'll be a Babe Magnet, they like those 'distinguished' men, that and money! I'll be fighting them off!
W: Well you can velcro some $20 to your clothes and get lots of women that way!
Me: (more serious) I think I'll skip that, I don't need a woman right now.
Conversation stops, I finish the last few bites and she's still looking at me, kinda sad. I get up and excuse myself and she says 'see ya later'.
A little while later I start a nice fire in the family room then go to my office to type this posting. I just went into the room and she was sitting looking sad. I smiled at her but she didn't look at me. I left her there.
I guess she is noticing that I am not needy, hence the 'are you ok' question and she is also in the middle of 'deciding' to get divorced. Don't know what, if anything, is going on with OM (a.k.a. 'Predator'). Right now I am good. I am ok. I have no idea what she's thinking but, she is / was determined and I expect that she will go through the steps for Divorce because she thinks she has to.
But, this is very weird behavior for her. AND my 180 is that SHE knows that I CAN SENSE her uncomfortableness and in the past I would follow her around trying to make her 'feel better'. I'm being indifferent now.
Gotta keep remembering that whatever I may think, she is not going to 'come back'.
