Quote: I really think that if you did the two things above, you would be in a much better state. Able to move forward- even when living in the same house
Thank you, your post was very helpful. I haven't let go of the old R yet. I'm not sure how to in my mind. I'm also not sure how to live in the same house. Anybody else have ideas on that?
Another 'fear' I have is her few friends that will support her, agree that she has suffered so much and is doing the right thing, that she deserves to be happy and have OM. I feel like that influence makes her resent me even more and makes reconciling less likely.
PetiteF has generously given you sound advice. Your situation is more complicated than I first realized, but with the obvious friends you've got here, I think you've got a great squad backing your efforts.
Sorry Frank Nicola will look for this here I could not find her post>
This is complicated but here it goes. If you truly and I mean truly love someone there is nothing you can do avoid it. So...doing anything other than loving that person becomes a choice, something you drive yourself to do. At this point you are not following your heart, you are follwing ego or self esteem. SO...If my wife cheated on me during my terrible years, if I new understood anything, I would realize that I had something to do with it. At that point If I truly loved my wife, the guilt and other feelings would give reasons and I could justify it.. So..If I dont take my wife back and I truly love her than it must be a choice of ego or self esteem. And by self esteem I mean another word for ego. If you ask most men they cannot even think of any other thought worse than the vision of their wife sleeping with another man. SO... what do you think could allow a man to get over that thought? True love and the guilt of driving your wife away. But I would make sure that I punished my wife for it if she was pining for me. If she wasnt well then that is another story and I would have to make a choice between ego (Mine) and just going back. I hope this makes sense I am trying to put my feelings in words and it is hard.
I dont see it any other way. Now you made a nice point. Let me say this and I hope it helps. I told my wife that if I ever hit her/ slapped her I would leave. I told my wife that when I was 23 or 24 years old. It may sound strange to say that but it fit the conversation at the time and I have never raised my hand to my wife. I meant the words. If your husband feels the same way about cheating on you then it might be lost. Only your husband could answer that. I hope this helps and please post a thread on my last thread if you want to talk more. Sorry Frank.
So, the theme I got from everyones post is 'put yourself first' and 'let her go, let the relationship go'.
Some of the comments I heard and things I know to be true are:
-- I won't be alone forever. -- I have always been a good man, and I'll always be a good man. And a 'real' good man IS hard to find. -- The days of 'down and out' are over for me and will never happen again. -- I'm still an attractive man (no really, I am!) and when I naturally feel that way INSIDE then people will be attracted to me. -- I can do great things with my life. I already have. Now I'm alive again and I will start 'doing' again. -- What I must do now is rebuild my life, just for me. Like one person said "you can't help anyone else if you don't put the oxygen mask on yourself first" -- I haven't been letting go of W or R. I am letting go now. I'm sorry it's gone. It's nobodys fault, it's just the way it is. -- I have begun detaching from that former life. I'm starting a new one that is centered on me. -- When my W does this little 'flirty' things I won't assign any meaning to them. I don't think she even knows why she does it. -- My W will continue with OM, and it's not anything I can change. What I can do is know that it's not to punish ME. It's not about ME it's about her, and her inability to find happiness inside herself instead of from a relationship with a man. And, I can put it out of my thoughts where it doesn't belong. It doesn't deserve any of my energy. -- W didn't reject ME, she rejected our LIFE together. Her actions show that she cares for me, and not in a 'I have to take care of frank' way. She wasn't happy in our life, and thinks that leaving is the only way she will be happy. She didn't expect me to change, and even though I have she thinks it's 'too late' to trust that I will stay changed. I will. -- W's Dad and Stepmom support ME and want me to stop being nice to her, make her get out on her own. Even though they know the WHOLE story they still think she didn't do the work for the marriage. That says a lot. -- W's Mom has disapproved of her actions. Don't know what she thinks of me though. We don't talk. Still, it says a lot. -- My kids love me, respect me, and are happy to have me 'back'. I have a relationship with them both that is better than it ever was.
Thanks to Spitfire for talking to me for several hours over the past few days, helping me see through the hurt and find reality and today making this observation: I am obviously a very strong man. I have always known this. In my marriage I was the one who made decisions, and was there for W to lean on. She was never the strong one and needed me to be that person. When she lost that, she just didn't know what to do. She didn't know how to fix it. She didn't know how to be happy. And now we are where we are.
When I am back to 'normal' she may see that she wants it back. Maybe I will see that I don't want weakness from her in my life again. I feel that way now, and I felt that way the past few years about her. I felt she was weak since she couldn't help ME.
Yesterday my W had to go to a funeral for a friends mom. She and the friend had some issues a year ago and hadn't spoken since so it was a shock for her to hear from her.
She came back sort of numb, sort of confused. She made a point of telling me that her GF's boyfriend was 'still with her'. She is a bit of a spoiled princess and he does whatever she wants. But she doesn't want to get married to him because she doesn't respect him I think. It was interesting the way W said it though. "she's still with him". Like it's only her choice to change it.
We got to talking about death and I told her that I'm not afraid of death any more. Then I said the hardest thing for me is knowing that when I die, I will hurt so many people and that makes me sad. She said that was a very sweet thing to say.
I went out a little later, and before I went out I went to D10's room to say goodnite, and W was reading a book with her. I gave D10 about 10 loud smooches on her cheek and said goodnite. As I was leaving the room W made 2-3 smooching sounds and said goodnite to me. I turned and looked at her with a puzzled expression and left the room. She was asleep when I got home later.
Today her GF who supports her adultery and doesn't like me is visiting for the day. I just got back from a long walk and she had come here while I was gone. I expected that I would hurt, be furious, whatever.
Instead I walked in, pasted on a genuine smile and said hello to everybody. GF said a pleasant hello to me. W smiled, made eye contact and made a few comments about how my walk was. I stayed for a couple minutes then went to my room to get a shower.
It's so strange how people behave when they know hidden truths that are hurting you. But GF is HER friend and has no feelings about how I might be feeling. BUT I did keep a PMA and not come across as anything like the guy W has probably told her I am / was.
I'm going to clean the garage today. It's been a huge mess for months and months. I just want a change and it's something I can change myself.
Overall I know that deep inside there is greatness in me. I've seen it before and I've hidden it for so many years because I got so hurt. I was telling my D15 on our drive last nite that I could 'feel' the 'next big thing' there on the horizon and it was calling to me. I feel it, I really can.
Maybe it's wishful thinking but in my dream I see W there with me, stronger and more independent.
So, for me 'giving up' I guess really meant 'stop trying to fix it'. So, I am giving up, but not on me. I don't know what will happen now, but I feel like I have been dead long enough. I want to live again. I want to be the guy people admired because I did so much good for so many.
It's funny how from time to time I'll talk to someone from the 'old life' who I hadn't talked to in years and they 'wondered what had happened to me'. I did't have the heart to tell them I was dead inside. I'm not dead now, I know this because life HURTS and I FEEL it. That's being ALIVE.
I have learned so much from you. I have realized today that I've been telling you to hang on and not give up because my H gave up and naturally, I then WOKE up. I didn't want that to happen to your wife. I didn't want her to wake up too late and be where I am. I don't think she has what it takes to fight from THIS side of the fence. But you know what? I didn't either. Not when I was lost. It took all the realizations I got along the way "back" to give me the strength I have now, weak though it may be at times . So if that is to be her outcome, then she'll have exactly what it takes to fight. The strength is built in the journey.
You posted such a long and caring message on my thread today and I heard you loud and clear and I thank you very much. But everyone else is right. You have to take care of YOU and you ARE and that is the RIGHT thing for you to do. Hanging on would stunt your personal growth and you can't let that happen. That's why my H let me go. I left him with no other choice. Now I'm on the fightin' side and for now, atleast, I'll keep pressing on.
You are already a winner in your sitch. I still remember your first posts so well, Frank. Have you ever gone back and read them and seen how much you have grown? You really should someday. It's quite a turnaround. Thanks for letting me piggyback & learn a few lessons from you.
Take care and thanks again for that post on my thread. You gave me much to think about.
Quote: I have realized today that I've been telling you to hang on and not give up because my H gave up and naturally, I then WOKE up. I didn't want that to happen to your wife. I didn't want her to wake up too late and be where I am. I don't think she has what it takes to fight from THIS side of the fence. But you know what? I didn't either. Not when I was lost. It took all the realizations I got along the way "back" to give me the strength I have now..... The strength is built in the journey.
I hope you are right about her and I. I want you to be right. I really do. I'm sure it took months and months for you to 'wake up' after H left you. I wish you could say it was 'a few weeks after he detached' but that would make my life too easy if W did it that way, wouldn't it?
So it will be months or years before W finishes her journey with OM, with starting her business, with whatever else she will do. And I'll hurt and I'll keep my distance emotionally. And I'll be lonely in my own home. And I'll grow and be ok. And maybe after a while I won't want to be there any more.
And maybe she just won't fight for me because she just can't get past the hurt.
Quote: You are already a winner in your sitch. I still remember your first posts so well, Frank. Have you ever gone back and read them and seen how much you have grown? You really should someday. It's quite a turnaround.
Yeah, I was pretty pathetic. I just wanted it all to go away and she was more messed up then, acting like she still loved me, then going towards OM. Now she is consistant at least. As long as OM feeds her ego she is 'in love' with him and just 'nice' to me. The occasional flirting with me is the only odd thing.
Today while her GF was over, D15's BF was here and THEY WERE looking through various photo albums of the girls when they were younger. I happened to walk into the room and looked too. From time to time W and I exchanged smiles at certain pictures, or memories. I guess our life wasn't all hell after all. And I guess we'll always have THAT connection.
It didn't seem to hurt her that those memories are part of the ending of a life we had together. One of the pictures was of D15 at 2yrs sitting on the lap of someone in an Easter Bunny costume. One of the girls said 'oh, that's dad dressed up as the easter bunny' (it wasn't). W explained to D15's BF that she first met me when I was dressed up as the easter bunny for a kids party for inner city kids in L.A. She had a smile on her face as she spoke. She used to love telling people that story, it meant a lot to her.
Anyway, it was fun to look at the kids and at us when we were younger. It wasn't till now that I feel sad.
I left after the last book and went into my office. A little later W came in and a little timidly asked me about some changes she wanted to make to her web site for her business. I built it for her a couple years ago. I told her how long the work would take and she asked me how much she should expect to pay me, she didn't think it was fair to expect me to do it for free. I came up with a price ($60) and she said 'ok', thanked me, and left.
Things like that hurt. When she does that I feel like it is just another way for her to distance herself from me. To cement the 'I am divorced' feelings and now I'm just 'a guy' to her.
I know you'll all say it's her 'guilt'. Because of what she's done she doesn't feel she should ask me to do anything for her. But it still hurts.
Well, I decided I am going to set a goal that I will be able to stay living here and detach to where I don't feel anything any more. I think it will build character.
Right now I'm going to clean the garage. I keep starting but get interrupted.
Today while her GF was over, D15's BF was here and we all spent time looking through various photo albums of the girls when they were younger. From time to time W and I exchanged smiles at certain pictures, or memories. I guess our life wasn't all hell after all. And I guess we'll always have THAT connection. Frank,
I don't know, maybe it's me, but I don't think people who want a divorce DO things like this with their spouse. I mean, I would do backflips if my H. would come over and go through some old photo albums with me right now. I haven't seen him in over 2 weeks.
I know you think your situation is really bad because your wife keeps saying she wants a divorce, but I read your posts and I don't get the impression that your marriage is only hanging on by a thread. You see her and spend a lot of time with her. I think your wife is just frustrated and is trying to ease that with this online relationship she's got going.
I'm not trying to make light of your problem, honestly. But I think you have a lot of positive interaction with her; far more than most of us here. I have a lot of hope for you; I still think if you hang in there, she's going to come around.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
Quote: I don't know, maybe it's me, but I don't think people who want a divorce DO things like this with their spouse. I mean, I would do backflips if my H. would come over and go through some old photo albums with me right now.
Her and GF and D15 and BF were looking at photos. I happened to walk into the room and stopped and looked too. Sorry, I made it sound like SHE AND I were doing it. Not true. We don't do things like that 'together'. The recent Kayaking trip and Camping were 'for the kids'.
Quote: I know you think your situation is really bad because your wife keeps saying she wants a divorce, but I read your posts and I don't get the impression that your marriage is only hanging on by a thread. You see her and spend a lot of time with her. I think your wife is just frustrated and is trying to ease that with this online relationship she's got going.
I do see her, I don't spend a lot of time with her. Maybe 1/2 hour at dinner time, maybe 1/2 hour during kids bedtime. Maybe 1/2 hour in the morning while kids get ready for school. Occasional 5 minutes here and there during the days. Occasional 10 minutes if she has an issue to discuss.
The 'online' relationship was already physical once, and she will do it again when it can be arranged. She's "In Love'.
Quote: I'm not trying to make light of your problem, honestly. But I think you have a lot of positive interaction with her; far more than most of us here. I have a lot of hope for you; I still think if you hang in there, she's going to come around.
You're not making light of it, I know what you meant and I appreciate it. My impressions are of course much more negative because I live here and I want more than I am getting. And she is 'In Love' with someone else. Period. She fills her 'empty' time when she has nothing else she has to do with either reading novels, or e-mail/IM with OM. Not talking to me.
Was2sad, I finally have time to respond to your posting which I found to be very moving to me. Please do reply to my questions either here, or via e-mail. thanks
Quote: what have you done to stop drinking? Are you in AA?
I just stopped on October 22. I had slowed down the previous 3 weeks to where I didn't drink during the week at all. I decided that it wasn't working for me and took personal responsibility. Then W bombed on Oct 31 and I have still stayed off alcohol in spite of all I have been through. Also, my Counselor whom I see twice a week is also a drug and alcohol counselor. She does a lot of work with the courts and people who are habitual substance abusers. So, she's very helpful to me.
I used the philosophy of S.O.S. which is that we and we alone are responsible for making a bad choice to use alcohol when we know it is destructive to us. AA didn't resonate with me because of the 'powerless' aspect, that's all. I don't believe I am 'powerless' over alcohol, I believe I am prone to ADDICTION to alcohol and should not drink it. And, I won't. The hardest part was losing the cravings / addiction which takes at least 90-120 days.
The 'funny' part is I don't think 'boy I could use a drink right now'. Not at all. It's like I don't know what it was like any more and I don't want to know.
My W has an open bottle of wine in the refridgerator that has been there for at least 3-4 weeks. The old frank would have sucked it down by now. This frank wonders why she doesn't throw it away if she doesn't like it - it takes up space!
Quote: What makes you strong? You don't sound strong right now. That is bad for you and no one else. All she knows is what she sees. If she sees you as weak and in fear mode right now, guess what - to her you are. And right now you are sounding like that. I'm not trying to beat you down. I'm saying you sound like you are doing a fair job of that on your own now.
What makes me strong is feeling ok about myself. Knowing I don't depend on anyone for my emotional well being. The 'knowing' that comes from my belief that when I choose to achieve a goal that I have a passion for, I WILL do whatever it takes to achieve it. And I WILL achieve it in some form. And when I am strong people are attracted to me. They come to me for emotional advice, spiritual advice and technological advice. It's what I do. It's who I am.
Quote: I am not reading what you are doing to walk the walk. Frank do you want her back? Do you have the strength and patience to make this happen. Do you know how much it is going to take? More than three months.
You are correct. I've been hurting for the past 3 months, and not letting it go. Not letting HER go. I can use the 'excuse' that I had to pull myself out of the cesspool that was my life while also holding things together, but things are 'together' now. W is in a 'stable' place with her desires and OM. Kids have accepted the changes in our relationship. I've adopted good habits and relationships with my kids. W and I have a strange but mostly coordial arrangement.
I guess it's time to leave 'crisis mode' and walk the walk.
Quote: Almost all of DB is about gaining back lost strength, regaining your lost PMA. That is what you need to be thinking about and writing about. That has to come first before she can see you walking the walk.
Yes, I get that and I am NOT in my true strength but in 'survivor' mode. I need to change that.
Quote: She doesn't expect to find someone better. She is wanting to spend some time with someone different.
Why do you say that? I won't say 'how do you know' but 'why do you draw this conclusion' that 'She doesn't expect to find someone better' and what do you mean by that? That she really wants ME but in a 'better' place and is just going for 'different' to see if I will become 'better'? She sure seems like I'm OUT for good. Please elaborate.
Quote: What makes you think she already knows him so well that she could love him as long as she loved you, and in spite of all those crimes you say she toleratd from you?
Ok, I know she doesn't 'know' him, I fear that she will spend the time getting to know him and over that time, feelings for ME will evaporate, never to return. That' s MY fear and my issue. And I'm hurt by the betrayal of our monogamy.
Quote: When she comes out of the transition she will be somebody new, and she will be ready to comit to an unconditional love. I think she has a history of unconditional love with you Frank and she will be looking to see where you are, and how you are. You need to be there and be the strong person she can come home to.
Ok, I undertand this. Why do you think she has this 'history' and will eventually come 'home'? I know I ask a lot of questions but I like to hear supporting evidence. Thanks.
Quote: It is too soon for you to be deciding to throw in the towel. It is time for you to decide to focus on Frank and detach from the rest of this.
Yes. It is.
Quote: If you are serious about it being time for Frank to move on to someone else, I would ask which Frank you want someone else to get to know. I think it should be the one that has taken time to get to know himself and improve himself so the next R will be the best one possible for both people. That is not three months. Give yourself some time and stay involved with this board for yourself. You may be surprised at the results.
I agree with the 'other frank' argument. I 'used to be' a different person. And I want to be better than that. Thanks for your words. I appreciate your (and others) responses to this post.
. So if that is to be her outcome, then she'll have exactly what it takes to fight. The strength is built in the journey.