Thanks again for offering to discuss your side of the WAS sitch...
I was wondering about how you felt when you had your A and it was revealed to/ discovered by your W. Did she demand you cut off the A? Did she walk away? What happened?
Yes, she absolutely did tell me to cut off the affair. She didn't walk away, I did, for a weekend. After that, we both kind of resumed our lives. To say the least, she was very wary of all my activities.
I guess that is what I'm struggling with here. My W is blatantly involved in an EA, in fact I just had a major blowout here because I found out that she was still talking to OM....in fact, she was on the phone with him just awhile ago. She refuses to think she is doing anything wrong (apparently, in her mind an affair means only full blown out sexual affair), and basically can't understand why I'm so up in arms about the whole ordeal. Okay, can I get a WTF?? Really, I'm at a turning point, because this is getting out of hand. My emotions don't mean squat to her at this point. She doesn't want to talk about it, etc...and this is after all the reassurances?
Really, at this point I have very little options. She lives here and I live here. Neither of us has anywhere to go....she won't leave and I'm sure as heck not leaving. Financially, we can't afford it. She works nights, I work days. So, again, what am I supposed to do?
Sorry Kaly, this goes way beyond the scope of your question, I'm just journaling now :-)
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
She refuses to think she is doing anything wrong (apparently, in her mind an affair means only full blown out sexual affair), and basically can't understand why I'm so up in arms about the whole ordeal. Okay, can I get a WTF??
Yet another thing our W's have in common. Beneath all the other crap she is saying/doing, is the lack of understanding about why I am so upset over her having "friends" now. Never mind the fact that she told me she was "seeing" someone a month ago. She feels that since she told me it was not physical, I am somehow NOT GIVING HER credit when I think she's having an affair. She is totally convinced that she is doing nothing wrong and that I'm this paranoid nut-job upset over nothing. Sure, the lies, secrecy, vague plans, etc, they are all to protect me from myself. Yea. Ok. My W leaves a divorce lawyer's card on our kitchen counter and when I ask her about it, somehow I'm the a-hole. How does that work again? I'm an a-hole for finding out you're talking to a D lawyer? Sorry for the rant, but you really hit on a sore spot with me. Yes, we're all told to expect them to blame us for everything, including the A but damnit it still pisses me off!
I'm telling you, it really irks me to no end. Just like today, I called her on the carpet about the necklace this morning to some degre....then I wrote her that e-mail basically saying how I understand this, how I understand that, yadda yadda. When I call her at 11:50 to wake her up, I asked her to please read the e-mail. She said she would, told me to call back at 2:30 to make sure she was up. I didn't get any reply, nothing. I had a hunch, checked the phone card number and lo and behold, who do you think was on the phone? Why W and OM of course. I was livid. I called her on that one too....she started to deny it then owned up to it (really had no choice). I said something like what the hell, you carry on this affair, behind my back and I'm not supposed to be upset. She says, its not an affair?!??! Okay, what exactly do YOU call it. He wrotes a nice love note and everything, but its completely innocent. I get it. Of course she doesn't want to talk about it and then has the audacity to ask me..why do you put yourself through this? At first I thought she meant putting up with her, but she actually meant why do I keep finding things out and then getting upset about it?
What a joke! I was in the exact same position last year, and THAT was an affair...how is this not?
I am truly at a crossroads here....do I continue on with DBing or do I pull a last, last resort. On one hand I say that I haven't been true to my DB goals and I really only have been DBing for about a month. But on the other hand, she needs a wake-up call. The only downside to that is the only thing she'll miss is my emotional support...she'll still live here and she still have all the benefits of having me around without the obligations.
I feel a whole boatload of resentment coming on.....
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
You are going through many of the same scenes that I went through, some eerily exact (like the phone).
When I posted my sitch, I think I failed to point out that during almost every confrontation (3 major plot points over the course of 6 months), she ALSO said that it is "NOT AN AFFAIR." In other words, she knew she could not deny it because she was caught, so she did her damndest to convince me that it was "not what I thought it was."
Whether she meant that: A) They did not have SEX, so it does not constitute an affair. (President Clinton said it himself, right?) B) It was just a harmless fantasy/roleacting over the Internet (although they did have at least 1 meeting that I am aware of). C) It was an emotional addiction that she was trying to break to save the marriage and family and kids' wellbeing. D) It really was an affair, in every sense of the word, and she was simply denying that because she no longer could deny what she was doing. So she could justify her true thoughts because they are still secret and I can't prove anything on that front. E) It was a penpal friendship that got out of hand and she was only continuing because she felt bad, because he was very sick and she didn't know how to just "let him down gently" (as she said to one of her girlfriends in an email I spied.)
I may never know.
She also said that it started because he was "somebody to talk to because I never talked to her."
So it goes.
Crow Jane, Crow Jane, come 'on, I wanna know,
how you love some man, but don't love me no mo'
No, no you didn't go beyond the scope of my question. I was just wondering if you could recall being in W's (current) shoes when you had your A and remembered if it was hard to let go of OW or not - if so, maybe because you felt so good in OW's presence and it gave you reassurance about yourself you had (temporarily) lost with W? I thought remembering that might make it easier for you to see why she's hanging on to her addiction.
My H is having a EA with his OW. Started out as PA, but he cut it off. She still writes him love letters, he sees her everyday at work when he's in town and God knows how often he calls her...from home and when on the road. It's more than obvious he is getting some kind of payback (esteem, power/control as he is her mentor at work, assurances by OW he makes her happy and she 'loves' him). He in NO WAY views this as wrong. No convincing him. But we all know that an EA is STILL an affair. I think it was Dr. Phil (yah, I know, I know....love him/hate him!) who said if you can't say it or do it in front of your wife, it's cheating. Anyway, I have a feeling that lashing out in anger - even though you are in the right - is going to get you no where fast, PArob. What are our other options in these situations? How do you go dark when you live together (I have this issue, too, until we separate in March). What does DB-ing system say to do at this point? Anyone out there have any ideas for us??!!
I really, really just don't know what to do. On some level, I wish she would just leave and be with him. At least I wouldn't have to see her face everyday and know that I'm not the only person in her heart (if I am even in her heart at this point). I feel so used, like she's holding on to this until its convenient for her to skip out on the R. It just doesn't cease to amaze me...she absolutely sees nothing wrong in this. When I went through everything, at least I recognized that it was wrong! She needs to experience life as it would be without everything, that is me and part-time with the girls, before I truly believe she can understand. I'm in a bad place today and I don't see it getting any better any time soon.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Quote: I was just wondering if you could recall being in W's (current) shoes when you had your A and remembered if it was hard to let go of OW or not - if so, maybe because you felt so good in OW's presence and it gave you reassurance about yourself you had (temporarily) lost with W?
Yeah, it was hard to let go of OW, I had this idea that she fulfilled me in some way. Looking back I have no idea how...but it was there. I did backslide a couple of times, but eventually it all came to an end. At the time I remember thinking that my W was just not into me and the marriage.
Quote: But we all know that an EA is STILL an affair. I think it was Dr. Phil (yah, I know, I know....love him/hate him!) who said if you can't say it or do it in front of your wife, it's cheating.
Yeah, I know it, you know it, GH knows, and Dr. Phil knows it, but funny how the WAS doesn't see it that way. Again, recognize that my A was an EA, strangely enough I really wasn't interested in obtaining sex from this woman, I felt that we were on a higher level (WTF?). More than that, I really felt that getting physical was a true break in my vows to my W and something I could never take back...even as stupid as I was, I guess I had some principles. But to my W, it was an affair. No doubt about it. So, again, I ask, how is her sitch not an affair? She has emotional ties to this go, probably believes that she loves him and I know he believes he loves her....oh, well, I'm simply preaching to the choir.
Quote: Anyway, I have a feeling that lashing out in anger - even though you are in the right - is going to get you no where fast, PArob. What are our other options in these situations? How do you go dark when you live together (I have this issue, too, until we separate in March). What does DB-ing system say to do at this point? Anyone out there have any ideas for us??!!
Sigh, I know that lashing out is not getting me anywhere. But on some level, I remember when she called me on the carpet, it started to bring about a change in the whole ordeal. So, I guess at times I see it as that way...if I call her on the carpet, maybe she'll get the hint. Yeah, some hint. I really want to save this M, I love her and I feel for the well- being of our children. They would be devastated, to say the least. But, if I go dark, again, she has all the benefits, i.e. a roof over her head, a car to drive, my income, without the costs. Its hopeless.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Well, one of the clues here is when you said you haven't really been living up to your DB goals... You said more, but that was the important part. In just more than a month of reading threads here, I have noticed that the most success befalls the ones who are most successful at acting on the DB principals. The DB stuff does not have a clause in it that says something like "Detach, work on you, do 180's etc, UNLESS the bi@#@ does something that upsets you and then f@#$ it, all bets are off and it's go time!" Ok, so you are back to square one. I get that it's frustrating, but I still see a guy totally ruled by his W's actions and words. Like I said to Frank, our weakness here is that we crumble at the slightest positive sign. You did that. You DO have choices to make. Again, a frank conversation where you let your W explain, in her words, using her definitions, what exactly is going on with you AND the "friend" seems to be the best thing. I know that's not DB, and if you could start back down the DB path, then by all means do it, but this conversation I am suggesting is in lieu of simply throwing in the towel and giving in to these rampant emotions you are feeling right now. So, in my opinion, your options are, in order of my (read MY) preference: 1) Start DBing again HARD. Pull back. Access the situation and go back to self-focus. Stop focusing on her and for God's sake stop focusing on the OM. 2) Schedule a non-negotiable conversation with your W where you ask her to express her feelings and explain what is going on. 3) Separate.
Sure, there are shades of grey in there but you get my drift. In any event, breathe. Take stock. See if there are any goals left to focus on, and go from there. I will check on you later tonight.
Oh, man, you are having a tough day (week...month!)! So sorry you are going thru the crap. I hope this isn't unhelpful, but I'm not sure it's hopeless when your wife has actually SAID she valued and wanted the marriage. She just sounds very confused right now. I have never been in the situation where I was with a spouse that felt badly enough too want back in (yet ), so I was giving a call out to those who might have some advice in your sitch. Does your W just get scared when she gets called onto the carpet or does she really listen to you? How can you bring up the subject without guilt? OMG, I KNOW how hard it is to have your spouse pour out their heart to another when you are sharing the same house...saying they're 'just friends'!! Once again, I'd just love to hear from someone for PArob concerning what kinds of steps he can take (I can suggest detaching, leaving your anger at the door...that often just scares women, FYI, makes it harder to come to H in love). Other than that, I don't know.
), so I was giving a call out to those who might have some advice in your sitch. Does your W just get scared when she gets called onto the carpet or does she really listen to you? How can you bring up the subject without guilt? OMG, I KNOW how hard it is to have your spouse pour out their heart to another when you are sharing the same house...saying they're 'just friends'!! Once again, I'd just love to hear from someone for PArob concerning what kinds of steps he can take (I can suggest detaching, leaving your anger at the door...that often just scares women, FYI, makes it harder to come to H in love). Other than that, I don't know.