At a turning point

[Kaly]

Dear PArob,

I promise not to pick your brain on a daily basis , but would appreciate the opportunity to check in every once and awhile to get your opinion 'from the other side'.

I must tell you, though, that I'm not judging your conduct -it seems as though you kind of felt bad and thought it necessary to point out your "awfulness" in the last post. I'm just appreciative of your openess and hope that I can learn a bit in order to help me, my H (as far as that goes) and my M.

Anyway, I'm trying to see my sitch this way (in my hopeful state): if -and this is not entirely clear to me yet- if my H is in MLC then I am able to equate it to a period of major depression I experienced in the early years of our marriage. In fact, maybe it was my own MLC. In any event, I was so angry at my H, could hardly control my anxiety, and blamed him for my unhappiness. He wasn't equipped to deal with it, but did his best until I discovered what was wrong and dealt with it (love those meds!). Maybe by looking at his MLC being somewhat like my depression episode will be both helpful in detaching and enable me to be more compassionate towards him. So....I'm not judging what you went thru...I did plenty of damage in my depressive state to my marriage.

So...my H has 99% detachment from me, had an A with OW, and has no interest in getting back together. Why? Well, I'm the depressed, unhappy, unfufilled wife and he continues to see me as some albatross around his neck. I can understand this. What is difficult is to deal lovingly with his VERY difficult behavior towards me. I'm hopeful by what you said about the OW spark dying and your realization somewhere along the way that you really wanted your W in your life. I have no idea when, how, or if my H will every feel that way again. We are separating. He will continue (at this point) to look for that magic bullet relationship he believes is out there -no conflicts, minimal emotional communication, the idea that if relationships are 'meant to be' they magically and organically FLOW...yes, we would all like that but this is not waht a mature relationship is about. I guess I'll tough it out...but he's a hard, proud man and I don't know...sometimes I feel like I'll break against him...

thanks for letting me vent...I'll keep an eye out for your posts in general...and good luck and blessings to you and your wife.

Love,
Kaly

[PArob]

Kaly,

You're more than welcome to pick my brain now and again, I'm hopeful that my story will at least encourage others to recognize that all is not lost in an M once the WAS starts an A. I am pretty beat up about the whole incident and to this day can't imagine why I had to do what I did. I feel especially guilty now because I have to wonder if that thing didn't lead to me current sitch. Oh well c'est la vie they say....

In any event, I applaud your efforts. These things are so emotionally draining. Interestingly, you talk about your bouts with depression and equate his MLC with that. I guess when you look at it that way, they are both very similar. Early in my M, my W experienced similar things as well. She suffered an extreme case of post partum after our first daughter was born which nearly tore us apart at that time. Although it would be easy for me to look back at it and blame her for that incident, I still don't. Her and I were both under extreme stress at the time...I would elaborate, but I don't have the time this morning. There was a second episode about five years later when we moved from our hometown to our current residence, about three hours away. She was pregenant with our third child and decided once she got here that she didn't want to be away from home. She moved back home for about six or seven months. I was crushed then, but looking back I understand why it happened. It was her first significant time away from home and she was terrified.

I would love to blame those things for my transgression, but in reality, I can't, because things were actually pretty good following those incidents. I attribute those to growing pains in our relationship.

The current sitch that I am in has me more terrified than anything. If you read my story, you know that about four months ago, my W expressed feelings for OM. October, November and December, I was incosolable for the most part. Begged, pleaded, cried, everything. Early this month, I confronted her and OM together. The next day, I found this site, immediately switched tactics. She took the weekend and just got away. Found a hotel somewhere, holed up and gave serious thought to the sitch. When she came home, she wrote me the most beautiful letter saying that she was so very sorry, she was misguided, that me and the girls are her life and without those she would have no life. I saw a bit of change in how she was acting towards me and life in general. To say the least, I was skeptical, but overjoyed. She felt really good about us, etc. The next week or so was fine, after a particularly hard weekend, she wrote me another note, saying much of the same things. That was two weekends ago.

There is a point here, and it is this. Now I'm not saying that this thing is over, in fact I know it isn't. She still talks to him during the day when I'm not here, and she sees him at work at night. But, considering where we were about three months ago, this is an improvement. Dont' give up hope Kaly, eventually he will come around and figure out that true love is not puppy love.

Take care of yourself, and please feel free to pick my brain anytime you like

[PArob]

All:

Well, here it is another Thursday and, of course, I'm in a funk. Well, I shouldn't say funk because its not that exactly. I can't explain it. I'm emotionally checked out today. I'm done with the lies, betrayal heartache. At least I'm pretty sure of it. Just too many things to deal with and quite frankly, I don't want, need or deserve it.

I guess I should explain, bascially I took my W at her word a couple of weeks ago when she told me that A)this is what she wanted B) that this was her life C) that she was sorry D) that she was asking for fogiveness and E) that she made a mistake, she couldn't change the past but promised it would never happen again.

Well, guess what. That's not the case. I think at least A wasn't a lie. I believe she does love me, in whatever way she can at this point. I think yeah, she does want her life back, but can't shake the feelings or whatever. The point is, after all that wonderful talk, she hasn't quit. Yeah, I snooped. Shouldn't have, but what can I say. I was good for awhile, but her behavior tipped me off to something. Strangely, I thought I would be a lot madder, more upset, but I'm not.

So, I guess it is time to honestly detach myself as much as possible. I'm tired of living a lie-she has made this bed, she can lie in it. Perhaps she will be happier, perhaps I will be. I don't know. But pretending that everything is ok just isn't working for me! That doesn't mean that DBing isn't the key, maybe it is....maybe I'm not just employing the principles correctly or giving enough time. She's set me up for this failure to many times.

We'll see what the rest of the day brings, I haven't made any rash decision or choices, I broached the subject with her this morning, but left it hanging because neither one of us really wanted to talk about it.

[grasshopper]

Rob,

Maybe time for a change in the way I talk about your sitch, and you approach it. I would love to see more people comment on this but here goes...
She told you all those things right?
A)this is what she wanted B) that this was her life C) that she was sorry D) that she was asking for fogiveness and E) that she made a mistake, she couldn't change the past but promised it would never happen again.
Ok, so she made a promise. Sure, so were your vows, but this is a recent promise, made with the full awareness of what the alternative is.
You understand her lack of ability to cut these feelings off, and to just go cold turkey, right? So maybe it's time to sit her down and somehow get her to understand that while you understand what it's like, you also know that it has to stop, period. It can't be a gradual weaning off. It can't just dissolve into a nice little friendship. It has to be over. The gravity of the situation is too great for anything else.
This is where the other theories of dealing with A's comes in I think. Even in DB/DR, there comes a time when the A just needs to end, forcefully. I think DB/DR is designed to get you to the point where your WAS sees the value in YOUR relationship again, but I don't know how much it does in getting them to see the harm in continuing the A. I think those two things can be mutually exclusive.
So, you may really be at a turning point. She expressed the desire to be with you, and recommitted herself to that via a series of promises. All you want to do now is help her define just what those promises meant to each of you, and help her keep them.
I would say that assuming she doesn't mean to keep those promises is a mistake on your part, just like assuming a crack addict doesn't love you enough just because the keep smoking crack.
Once the addict admits there is a problem, a HUGE hurdle is jumped and THEN it may be time for more aggressive efforts on the part of family and friends.
I just think your W is confused still, but in a way that at least gives your side equal or much more than equal standing in the equation. Take advantage of that. Show her that you have grown. Use all these new powers of validation and empathy coupled with a little tough love. Show her that you are understanding of her feelings and you want to help her reach her goals of being with you and then remaining faithful. Tell her that you are willing to see her through whatever it takes to get to a trusting, open, loving marriage, but you need to at least have honesty from her. If she does indeed open up to you, and expresses her feelings, it will be on you at that point to either validate them, or consider them fighting words and proceed down the path of separation.
Once again, I see elements of my sitch/W and Tim's in your sitch/W. I think my W would have a really tough time giving up this wonderful new life, and would fight to keep certain aspects of it even if she promised not to, and in my W's case, apparently this is not just one guy, but a network of friends. It's like a lifeline. You know all too well what that's like.
Lastly, I am still going to slap you a little bit. I would really like to think you'd use your power of knowing both sides of this for not just our good, but yours too. You know what it's like to be where she is yet you only seem to get from that all the fears that the knowledge generates, and none of the empathy. Maybe, and I should have asked this before, you guys just don't bring up your A, and thats why you are slow to apply what you learned from it with your W. I don't know what the reason is, but you are expecting from her something that you were unable to do and yet here you are, still in this marriage even after NOT going cold turkey...food for thought.

GH

[PArob]

GH

Let me begin by saying that your are so right on so many levels. Here's what I think:

You understand her lack of ability to cut these feelings off, and to just go cold turkey, right? So maybe it's time to sit her down and somehow get her to understand that while you understand what it's like, you also know that it has to stop, period. It can't be a gradual weaning off. It can't just dissolve into a nice little friendship. It has to be over. The gravity of the situation is too great for anything else.

I guess that's the point I'm trying to get across to her. I know that it is very hard, I know that. But the fact is, she did say some things, she did make promises. I like the crack addict analogy, because it is so right on. Maybe that should come across a little clearer, that it does have to stop. The point is, I don't know what she has said to him, I don't know what's going on. I do know he has feelings for her. A gradual weaning is not going to do the trick here...its not fair to me, not fair to her and, as much as I hate to say this, not fair to him.

This is where the other theories of dealing with A's comes in I think. Even in DB/DR, there comes a time when the A just needs to end, forcefully. I think DB/DR is designed to get you to the point where your WAS sees the value in YOUR relationship again, but I don't know how much it does in getting them to see the harm in continuing the A. I think those two things can be mutually exclusive.

I think you are absolutely 100% correct on this. The DB/DR principles are designed to get a WAS to see value in the relationship, in my opinion. She DOES see that value. I believe that. I believe that she DOES love me, I believe that this life she does want. I know that without this life, she would be very unhappy. So, what do I do with that knowledge? I think I need to employ just a bit of tough love here. I'm not saying I'm kicking her out or throwing in the towel, because I value my M way too much for that. But maybe its time for me to emotionally check out....I don't know, go dark to the best of my ability. My emotions are so caught up in this that I'm losing sight of who I am. Maybe if she sees that she can't continue to come home and glean whatever emotion she can from me, then maybe it will serve as a wake up call. Its a risk, I know, but at this point, for my well being, its a risk that I must take.

I would say that assuming she doesn't mean to keep those promises is a mistake on your part, just like assuming a crack addict doesn't love you enough just because the keep smoking crack.
Once the addict admits there is a problem, a HUGE hurdle is jumped and THEN it may be time for more aggressive efforts on the part of family and friends.

Yes, in an e-mail that I am drafting to her right now, I have said as much. Inability to fulfill these promises is not a mistake, she hasn't failed and she's not a failure. But, I can't continue hearing the promises and basing my emotional barometer on them.

You know what it's like to be where she is yet you only seem to get from that all the fears that the knowledge generates, and none of the empathy. Maybe, and I should have asked this before, you guys just don't bring up your A, and thats why you are slow to apply what you learned from it with your W. I don't know what the reason is, but you are expecting from her something that you were unable to do and yet here you are, still in this marriage even after NOT going cold turkey...food for thought

Yes, I know this too....I do have empathy here. I understand. I really don't think I'm trying to hold her to a higher standard than myself. We have brought up the A and discussed it to some degree and she knows the difficulties I had. I really am trying to apply those principles here.

Thanks so much for interest in my sitch GH...you have been so helpful in so many ways, truly!

[grasshopper]

Rob,

NP, but please, I love your gratitude, but remember I am a peer, not an expert. lol.

I don't know, go dark to the best of my ability. My emotions are so caught up in this that I'm losing sight of who I am. Maybe if she sees that she can't continue to come home and glean whatever emotion she can from me, then maybe it will serve as a wake up call. Its a risk, I know, but at this point, for my well being, its a risk that I must take.

In my mind, this is where I think I differ with your ideas. From her perspective, what has she done to make you "go dark"? Sure, she knows she's still telling lies, but maybe she justifies it in her mind as protecting you from her confusion, I don't know.
What I am saying is that in her mind, you guys are reconciling, right? If you go dark, might that be confusing? I think you may be thinking that confusion would be good for her right now, but I don't know if it would.
Maybe direct communication is in order here. Look, I am in uncharted territory with this. I am so embroiled in the part where the WAS wants nothing to do with us, I don't know much about what to do when they do again.
All I can say is looking at where you are at, you are looking to build something better than you had before, right? R talks are a no-no when DBing, but are you really still doing that per-se?
If she is still unwilling to talk about these things with you, then maybe you need to try a different approach. Really, I think you are by taking the initiative in validating things you think she may be feeling. Sure you are assuming some things, but maybe, just this once, it's ok. What I think may need to happen is for her to admit to some of these things you suspect and for you not to jump on her about it. Validation, empathy, remeber? If she felt comfortable expressing some of this to you, maybe the rest would be revealed and you could show her that you can be a partner in working through it, not the enemy. Look at pregnantandDBing's sitch and how hard she had to swallow to get her husband to admit the pregnancy of the OW. Now he is back with her and they stand together in the face of a problem we could only imagine in our worst nightmares.
Rob, the most important thing to realize now, as far as I can see, is that you major issue is that she is not living up to your expectations of her right now. Do you see a problem with that?

GH

[PArob]

Rob, the most important thing to realize now, as far as I can see, is that you major issue is that she is not living up to your expectations of her right now. Do you see a problem with that?

Honestly, I guess not. They are my expecatations, but they were based on things she said, etc. Look, I guess she just needs to realize that she cannot rely upon my emotional support and whatever emotional support she is getting from OM. Right now, I'm really confused about what to do. I do understand the feelings, emotions, etc. But I just keep getting caught up in the whirlwind. She says something and does something else. Her words should at least account for something.
I feel that the only way I can even get some of my dignity back here is to emotionally detach as much as possible, but when she tells me ILY all the time, etc. its pretty hard to do that.
If she wouldn't build up my expectations, then maybe I wouldn't have any , you know.
I'm still mulling all this over. One thing I do know, I am not throwing in the towel. Just trying to plan my next move.
Its strange, yesterday, I was ready to go to war over little things..today I know a little bit more (like the calling card she kept hidden away so she could call him w/o me knowing it....250 minutes activated last week, 45 mintues left), but I'm calmer. Maybe because I'm realizing the those expectations she built up are a complete sham?

[grasshopper]

but I'm calmer. Maybe because I'm realizing the those expectations she built up are a complete sham?

Ok, another different approach.
If I remember correctly, your W wrote those letters AFTER you confronted her and the OM, right?
So is it possible that you coerced her into coming back but she never really decided to? That's what we're told will happen if we try to strong arm the situation, right? They may come back but they're still partially back "there".
I don't really have an answer if that is the case. It seems like you are perfectly right in taking her for her word and that those "expectations" you have based on what she said, should count for something. I get that totally.
I don't know where to tell you to go now. The most logical thing would seem to be a heart to heart with her explaining what you need and feel and asking her to do the same.
I really understand what you are feeling and why it's so hard to figure this out. Do you continue to DB and detach in the face of what looks like more of the same from her, or do you switch tactics, believing in her renewed commitment to you?
Anyone else?

GH

[petiteflower]

Live in the moment, for the moment and do not try to understand it's meaning beyond the moment.

Thanks GH- although I know you wrote this for PARob, it is resounding in the latest developments in my sit... to just take what happened over the past day as it happened... and not to read or think much more into it, or about it.

Thanks-

[PArob]

I really understand what you are feeling and why it's so hard to figure this out. Do you continue to DB and detach in the face of what looks like more of the same from her, or do you switch tactics, believing in her renewed commitment to you?

That's my struggle as well. I sent her an e-mail laying out some things, basically telling her that I am not bitter or angry and I do understand her feelings and emotions. I don't blame her because she is under a lot of strain and stress and these powerful emotions. But, I also have boundaries. I let me emotions get caught up in the expecations and that I can no longer do that. I have to assume that she is not emotionally in this M and as a result, I can't continue to offer emotional support. She has my full love and support, but something in this relationship has to change until she can actually prove to me that this is where she wants to be.

I don't know, maybe its too much....I hope not. I really hope she does come to her senses, but in the meantime, I can't get caught up in expectations and I can't keep whistling past the graveyard, pretending she's not leaning on him.

What a day.