Thank you. I like long posts in reply because it means you are getting detailed, something that takes time and effort. I appreciate both.
But, will it give you the best chance to a) further yourself and b) save your M in the process? Indeed.
Ok, I can see A, but B is less clear. There are SO many books/sites/people that say sitting back while an A is going on in front of you is a certain way to end your marriage. The longer the A goes on, the more likely the WAS is to go permanently. DB says the exact opposite. I have chosen to embrace DB because it makes sense to me, and because I know I have a lot of work to do before I feel comfortable in my M, let alone my W feel comfortable. Also, I am 90% sure an ultimatum at this point would end things for us so DB represents the best, and maybe only option for me.
I have come to accept that validation and detachment are ESSENTIAL in this process.
I totally agree. The problem is that my W does not share any feelings for me to validate. Am I supposed to validate her when she's going out to see him? "Hey honey, I understand why you feel you need to go be with Mr. Right." I don't think so. IF she decides to open up to me, like she did to a very small extent the other night, then I will do my best to listen and validate.
Now put that into perspective. You have to make these changes for you, they must be genuine or your W will not see them as changes but only more of the same manipulation and form of control.
Ah, the rub. My C said the same thing. Actually it was when I told her the story about the women at the bday party thinking I looked good. I somehow forgot everything I know and said it was great because it made my W jealous! C jumped on my immediately (actually made me pull back) almost angrily and said "No, no, no, that's all wrong. You keep making everything about her. You keep identifying your value through her eyes. You need to have liked that because it made you feel good, not because of anything she may or may not have felt!" Damn, she was SO right.
As for my sitch, I am honestly flattered that you believe that I have the best chance of saving it. The truth is, I really don't know that.
I realize that. You have a chance, but you and I realize that your W could do just about anything right now. I only hope things continue to remain positive.
The decision must be of their own free will. If your W came to you today and said that she wanted all of this, etc., would you be convinced that it was over?
No. I would not believe that. I have little belief in my W's ability to be remorseful and fight for my trust and without those things, it will take a long time of observation for me to trust her again. I guess that's a major reason why I am losing hope. Dragon said that her post was about the marriage probably being better than the WAS thinks before the A. In my case, I agree with my W, our marriage has not been close or loving in a long time. Long enough that I cannot truly remember a blissful time when we were both happy. If I am my W, and I feel that way too, what is there to come back to? What reason is there to fight? To answer my own question, I guess a changed dynamic, a changed me would be a start, hence back to DB... I am really in a rut now. My C session usually picks me up for a few days but since we just talked about M the whole time, we didn't do any work on me. Also, C is on vacation next week so I won't see her for about 11 days. That is adding stress. I am a quiet mess now. I am not showing many outward signs but I am slowly sliding and I really don't know why exactly. I will pull out of it I think. Maybe just time...
I have to tell you, that positive enegy I was feeling on Monday has certainly slipped today. Looks like we missed our goal this week ;-) In any event, I started a major backslide this morning. Started R conversation almost immediately...a whole big mess. I wish I had electro shock to buzz me everytime I start these things...basically I am really down at this point too, but I have to dig myself out of this rut. I MUST practice what I preach. Okay, enough about me, I have my own post to do that...
With regard to you, I can see that you're in a rut and I wish I could say or do something to make you better. I can only offer some views and hopefully they will make sense.
Quote: The longer the A goes on, the more likely the WAS is to go permanently. DB says the exact opposite. I
Okay, I have to admit, I secretly buy into this. If the spouse is allowed to continue on the A, what's the likelihood that they will stop it? But then again, I truly wonder. In my own experience, I wasn't "permitted" to carry on with the A. Basically I was presented with the choice of either/or, maybe not so much in those words, but I could see it. I can't lie, I did come back, but for the first couple months, I still had nagging feelings. I worked with this girl and I would see her occassionally. In time, those feelings subsided. But what if I had been allowed to continue on? I don't know, how long before those feelings would have subsided? Now, I have to say that in my instance, there were other circumstances as well. I'm so embarrassed by the whole ordeal becasue at the time, I had a wonderful position within our agency, top notch stuff. Lets just say that my W and my boss found out around the same time. Boom. I'm faced with likely losing my W and I lost my position. I was demoted and lost a good deal of money in the process. Okay, here is where the guilt comes in for sure...becasue of that loss, my W was basically forced to take the current job she has....that is, the one where OM works.
Okay, I'm getting off track. The question is whether letting the A go in is good or bad in the long run. I wish I had the answer. I know that if either of us have a chance at saving what we have, our W's emotions must be allowed to run their course. How? I don't know...in my sitch, I hope and pray that my W has chosen to put herself back into this marriage and will work out those emotions over time. I suppose if I stop being such a sh*thead, maybe they will. But, as with your W, she is not one to exrpess a lot of remorse here. But then again, in hindsight, neither did I. Although once I knew for certain that my feelings were 100% with my W, I did take her to Niagara Falls and surprised her with a vow renewal. That was a turning point for me...it signaled to me and to her that she was my life.
You're the best one to analyze your sitch. In a lot of ways, the DB principles are sound because its based on validation of her feelings, in a sense. You're not invalidating her feelings by demanding that they mean squat. It would be nice if she could do this in the context of your R, but she hasn't. But, I will tell you this, even DB/DR does note that at some point, a day of reckoning must come (remember, the last last resort technique). When you've reached that point where you can no longer take it and there has been no progress, you will put your foot down and demand a choice. However, you must be prepared to follow through and that is where the GAL is essential.
Quote: The problem is that my W does not share any feelings for me to validate.
Yeah, I echo this. My W really doesn't either. I just know that she has "feelings" for OM. I know that, at least at one time, she wanted "excitement and adventure". Okay, those are extremely vague emotions...but nonetheless they are emotions, and they are very real to her. In your sitch, your W has feelings with regard to OM. They are very real to her. You cannot discount them as being wrong, right, indifferent or otherwise. Does it mean that you have to embrace them? No...you have your boundaries, but you cannot, by yourself, change them. You don't have to understand her need to be with Mr. Right Now, just understand that she has feelings. This is hard to do, but put yourself in her shoes, truly. See your R through her eyes. Validation isn't so much about embracing someone elses feelings, you have established values and boundaries, its simply about understanding them.
Quote: Actually it was when I told her the story about the women at the bday party thinking I looked good. I somehow forgot everything I know and said it was great because it made my W jealous!
A-ha! Yes, I just did the same thing myself last night. A young girl here at work has commented on how well I dress and look. Yesterday she came over to show me her new shirt...innocently enough and defintely innocent on my part. But I had to share the story with W.....why, because it made me feel good? Well, yeah, but a little part of me was looking for that reaction from her. A little jealousy. Its those things that you and I have to get rid of. How? I wish I knew. But amen on this one.
Quote: In my case, I agree with my W, our marriage has not been close or loving in a long time. Long enough that I cannot truly remember a blissful time when we were both happy. If I am my W, and I feel that way too, what is there to come back to? What reason is there to fight?
I have to ask you, are you sure about this? I mean I look back at my M and remember a lot of hard, difficult times. But then again, I can look back and see some very defined happy moments. The days our children were born, our first house, vow renewal in Canada, lots of little moments. In your M, there has to be reasons to fight....you guys have stuck by each other through things over the last several years...that IS something to fight for. and, like you said a changed dynamic, a new start for both of you. You both found and married each other for a reason.
I guess I've rambled on enough, but I guess in the end all I'm saying is stay true to your course.
By the way, if you ever need someone to talk to in person, please don't hesitate to let me know.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Thanks as usual Rob. I will take all that in and try to apply it. I will respond to the most pressing question you asked:
I have to ask you, are you sure about this?
I am sure of it. Yes, of course there were happy moments, days, weeks, but the M itself, largely due to my dependance on her for just about all of my emotional well-being, was strained at best. When I look back on our life together, even back to our honeymoon, I see evidence of the strain. I think she just accepted it for all this time because she's used to (found this out in my C session yesterday) having people in her life do that. She was the emotional rock for her entire family when her brother died. She took care of a lot of the arrangements and stayed strong when they all crumbled. It took a severe toll on her, but even before that I sense she has been the depended on in codependent relationships before. My C says W is also codependent but it manifests in different ways with her. I am by no means saying that my entire marriage is a sham. I don't believe that for a minute. What I am saying is that my W will have to look DEEP to find the good, loving, fun, no pressure times in our lives when the M was strong, I was strong, and we were great together.
Well, first good thing to post in awhile...phone call from W about an hour ago:
W: Hey, just wanted to ask you if you could look for flight info on flights to Ireland. M: Sure, I can do that. W: I was talking to my sister and she mentioned there were a couple different options... M: Ok, I will look into it and print some things out. W: Also, my sister said she was blown away seeing you at the party. She said with the weight you lost, your hair and goatee, she's never seen you look better. M: Thank you to her. W: Yea, I told her that you can look really good when you try. M: Yea, I suppose so. Too bad I wasn't trying all these years. W: Well, you do look really good these days, you do.
I know, it doesn't mean anything, but it's the first positive thing my W has said about me since this started. If I get some good vibrations from it, then I am going to ride them at least for a few hours...
First, hang in there. I have found that as rough as things get, there is usually something good that happens after, even if it is small or does not involve the R or the W. My first thoughts about detachment were that it was a bunch of crap. How could I show W that I loved her and was changing. But now, I am becoming more detached and it seems to be helping. I finally told W that if a D is what she wants, she can have it. You know what, she has not mentioned it since and I think it is because she does not want it either. I pray for you and all others when I go to bed at night (We have agreed that I will sleep in the spare bedroom) that things turn out for the better for us. If nothing else comes out of this, I know that I will be better for it because I have learned not to take W for granted and I can apply that in a future R (if there is one). Embrace the fears that you have that will not destroy you. D sounds like a strong thing, but in the end, it may be best to sever the ties that are not bringing you happiness. It is not the end of the world and who knows, maybe she will see you for who you really are and come back. Look out for you and the kids, all else will sort out and eventually be OK.
well congrats, and here I am again with my book club agenda
Seriously, in terms of what you said about dependency and codependency, strained realtionship, panic and emotionla burden, I can recommend an excellent reading, no not a reading, a medicine: "Little book of letting go" by Hugh Prather. http://product.half.ebay.com/The-Little-Book-of-Letting-Go_W0QQtgZinfoQQprZ1679021 I suggest you buy it as soon as possible, and start performing all exercises from the start (you could probably skip first 2-3), thoroughly and thoughtfully.
I can practically guarantee you that in several days of doing so you will be amazed at your newly found self-awareness and how much you learned about yourself; not to mention that you will learn how not to make your self-esteem the victim of your W's behavior. It is your choice to make your pride and worth a victim. You might just as well choose otherwise. Can you say - detachment?
By the way, I have a question. SInce I inhabit the Midlife crisis forum technically, should I transfer here, or would you come visit me there?
To get through the darkest period of the night, act as if it is already morning.
The Talmud
Thanks for the advice and reading material I will look for the book. Also, I will read your thread and post. Actually, I did read most of it. Could you post an update just so I am clear where you are?
I see you all are recommending books so I'll throw this one out there. I've just started reading "Make Up Don't Break Up" and it pretty much has the chase of the R dead on.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear you're having a good day--I know you've had several bad ones recently.
Sorry it's hard to keep up with me. What could I do to make it easier? Anyway, thank you for the well wishing. It has been an ok day, but yes, my W saying I look good did put a smile on my face.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
