not sure what to do next-please help

[grasshopper]

Sounds like H is pretty numb right now...right up until that hernia...ouch.

When I, honestly trying to offer some comfort, said, "Hey, I know things are heavy now, but this hernia has a solution. It's the least of your problems" He was mean as a snake, saying "thanks for minimizing my feelings" etc.

Gray refers to this as Mars/Venus role reversal. From what I can tell, you DID minimalize his feelings and by saying that it was "the least of his problems" probably reinforced his idea that karma/god/whatever was out to get him. A simple,
wow, I'm sorry honey, that must really hurt. Let me get you some ice (or heat or whatever is appropriate)." would have probably sufficed for comforting without the little jab that a painful injury was NOTHING compared to an affair, broken marriage and dead father. Just my opinion looking in from the outside Then again, you don't necessarily OWE him the courtesy of caring how he feels but you said you were trying to comfort him, thus indicating you DO care.

Now, I still cry every day and feel so sad about the end of my M, but I finally get it that I can't fix it. It might get fixed soemday, but that is the least likely outcome. For now I just try to have faith in what people tell me - that either way, I will be happy again. Someday.

It's ok to be sad, just not all the time. Also, you CAN do SOME things to try to affect change, i.e. fix your marriage. The important thing to realize is that those things are all about you and have nothing to do with FIXING him. Someday, maybe today even, you're right, you WILL be happy. Smile right now...see, you did it. Now work on making that a more frequent occurrence brought on by whatever is inside YOU!

As for your feelings about his trip, that is all about boundaries and acceptable limits as far as what you'll continue to endure. I can't really advise you on that. Maybe someone else will chime in.

GH

[Erin]

Ahh, wise GH.
From what I can tell, you DID minimalize his feelings and by saying that it was "the least of his problems" probably reinforced his idea that karma/god/whatever was out to get him. A simple,
wow, I'm sorry honey, that must really hurt. Let me get you some ice (or heat or whatever is appropriate)." would have probably sufficed for comforting without the little jab that a painful injury was NOTHING compared to an affair, broken marriage and dead father

Yes, you are right. H and I always joked about how I am from Mars (three brothers) and he is from Venus (raised by single mother) I am trying to just learn how to just sit in a situation or a conversation without offering a fix or even a way of digesting it. I can see how my opinion here was not useful to him.
Also, you CAN do SOME things to try to affect change, i.e. fix your marriage. The important thing to realize is that those things are all about you and have nothing to do with FIXING him.

I am working on me - trying to find joy in things with S2, running when I can, enjoying good food when I can etc. It's just that I can't seem to find any comfort that this will in turn increase my chances of M working. It seems that the better I do, the easier it is for H to leave. That's not to say I plan to disintigrate before his eyes, its just that the better I cope the more remote my M is from me. I think I read a convo between Superstressed and Imdi about this - we are all here hoping beyond hope for our M's, but sometimes for the least hopeful cases it becomes a personal growth workshop instead. I guess I feel like I'm in the latter group. Yes, it is possible that he will spend all his free time and money on her in the next few months and realize that it is a mistake, but I don't see that happening. He has sacrificed too much now to let her go. He has relationship skills. Now, he'll just use them with her to make this doomed relationship last when he should have used them with me to save our family. I mean, has anybody on this board ever reported a long distance romantic affair ending in an acceptable amount of time? I guess I know it will end, I just think it will be years. I can't wait years.

Anyway, thanks GH for stopping by, and calling me on talking like a man. It's my blessing and curse.
erin
PS I admit I did smile and it did help.:)

[RBinBR]

He has sacrificed too much now to let her go.

Not true. That's what my W kept telling me. "It's too late to save the marriage, I've already wrecked everything, I love him too much to ever let him go, etc." Now, OM is out of her apartment in another state and she's living with a friend repairing her relationship with God so that she can rejoin her family.

[grasshopper]

If I have come to realize one thing, that stands out among ALL the other things about these sitches it's this; statements that involve finality, i.e. "It's too late do save this" or "I never want to see you again" or "I don't see any reason to ever work on our marriage" or "It was ALWAYS this way between us" are usually false. I would say that more than usually false, they are 100% false because there is ALWAYS some way that things can be different than the way the person making the comment believes them to be.

That's why as LBS's AND WAS's, it's important to understand that no matter what they say, there is ALWAYS tomorrow and with that brings renewed uncertainty, good, bad or otherwise.

GH

[Erin]

Thanks RB and GH for pointing out that I should tone down the drama on this. You are right - something is going to give - things won't be exactly like this forever. He!!, I may be the one wanting a divorce at some point! H just has such a hard time with examining his actions - we have talked about this lots in our lives together. He usually makes good decisions, but when a decision is either bad or not so good, and he has the luck to sense it ahead of time, he still can't pull back and change course. He likes being decisive more than he likes being right, and so he is a nightmare to DB with.

Which brings me to something else that has been on my mind. PMA. What is this in DB land? PMA about myself and the idea that I will survive this somehow and be a good person still? PMA that H will recover from A and MLC and want a new M with me? I can see how I am much more cynical than many of y'all about my sitch working out, and I wonder if that has to do with my attitude or something more objective i.e. my sitch is less likely to work out than others described here? Can somebody give me a way to digest PMA? I certainly wouldn't mind having more hopefullness about my H, I just don't see what there is to be hopeful about sometimes.

Tonight is likely our last MC session. H announced another business trip last night that starts hours after he returns from Germany after Easter, and then he already had a conference for the last week of April. So there goes another month - without seeing S2, without IC or MC. I did, BTW, resist the urge to point this out, or to suggest he not go to Germany in order to meet his family obligations. Micro step for me. Anyway, I am thinking alot about why somebody in my sitch would go to MC. Although H has said that MC has been helpful in restoring communication, and has always maintained that he was open to working on M (lie), I just don't know what we can accomplish with A flourishing. It seems like being in close and honest communication undermines my ability to act as if. So, tonight I'm going to ask for a few things - and then tyr to be okay with not going anymore - unless things change and we BOTH say we need it. I've been following Mama's thread on MC lately, and wonder if I didn't push it too much early on.
1. to scale back his assessment "we're getting a divorce" to "we're separated." Honestly, I just can't bear the weight of D right now. I know he acts like we aleady are D in order to justify his actions with OW, but I think its reasonable to ask him to let me accept this path slowly. Its not like anybody else knows, but as people start to find out, I guess it matters to me how it is presented. Reasonable, or am I getting neurotic because of my lack of control here?
2. I want him to own that I wasn't asking him to consider a bad mariage to me. Whenever he acts like he has no choice but to go forward with A, I say you did have a choice and he acts exasperated - says "what! A sham marriage with no love? That's not an option and not good for S2 either!" This is not only false, but consistantly offends me. No, I don't want a loveless marriage. I don't know how we could have recovered, just that we could have. It's important to me that he recognize this for some reason. Again, should I let this go to - I mean, its not like he's going to apologize, right?

Anyway, I am doing better with detaching each day. However, I must admit that the obsessive thoughts are back full swing. No, I am not a head case, but those obsessive thoughts about H and OW that we all had in the early days seem to be back interrupting my sleep in a huge way. I am deep breathing, meditating, saying hail marys (extra funny as I am not Catholic) and envisioning stop signs, but still slept badly all week. Perhaps it has to do with his impending trip...if I'm obsessing now I wonder how I'll function when I know he's actually there!

Enough for now. Send me serenity and good karma for MC tonight. You all are a wonderful and motley crew and I am so thankful to have this outlet.

[PositivelyListening]

Hi Erin,

Well, all I can say for you about this

...if I'm obsessing now I wonder how I'll function when I know he's actually there!

is that it got a lot better for me on the second day after my H left. The anticipation (and the stuff I made up in my head) and the ridiculous embarrassing secret hope that I had that he would decide at the last minute not to go at all - well all that was a lot worse than being here in my home, and having friends and family loving and supporting me, and not having him call or come by to re-trigger my anticipation anxiety. So I will wish for you the kind of week like I have had. A joyous, connected time for you and your son, some beautiful weather, simple pleasures, and some GREAT self care activities.

My H stopped going to MC with me 4 or 5 weeks ago. It turned out he was only going because he thought I needed him to. He was just assuaging his guilt. No thanks! I told him recently that I am only interested in having a healthy relationship, and that if I feel hurt or he feels guilty, we are out of balance. I am not sure how far we will have to separate/detach to achieve balance, thisis still a work in progress. But that's my goal - health. My H looks like he's still on an unhealthy track. However, I must say he looked stronger and healthier and more in balance the week before he left than he had in a while. We shall see when he returns from the trip with OW what happens next. I do believe that she is a VERY unhealthy factor in his life, and the more info I have, the more that seems to be true.

I have been thinking about your son. Does he miss your H, or is their relationship already too distant? Because, as a parent, I think it is perfectly appropriate to discuss your son's needs with your H (need for time spent together, etc.) However, it would not be appropriate to use your son as a way to create more time with H for you. I realize that this can sometimes be tricky, to separate your emotions regarding your H from your son's needs. But I hope you are thinking about ways to express your son's needs and advocate on his behalf, as he will not be able to do it for himself for a very, very long time. My daughter growing up rarely saw her father. It seemed like consistency mattered more than anything, however. When she was 2, I told her dad that if he wanted a relationship with her, he should be consistent. He called every Sunday for years. The phone calls were short and perhaps totally uneventful. But I do think somehow it helped my daughter realize he was there and also could be called upon if needed. And I think it has helped her relationship with him as an adult. They don't see each other much, she has low expectaions of him, but she still knows he is there and can be called upon if ever needed.

Anyway, keep deep breathing, meditating, etc. like you have been doing. I think good thoughts for you often. I think you are doing great! This is not easy. Detach, with love. Detach, with love.

I like being part of the motley crew

[Erin]

So, H moved out yesterday. I tried to keep it together, and ended up leaving with S2 for the afternoon. We had a nice time at MIL's, I went for a LONG run, and S2 got to dig in the dirt all afternoon. H left me a note that he waited to see us last night before leaving, and I missed his call. I saw the missed call, but didn't call back as I figured anything important he would leave a message about. (Not calling back was a step for me.) This a.m. he called to see how I am. I am back to being brave today. Yesterday, not so good... The break down was as I was driving away yesterday, I was in tears. I said bye, as if for the last time, and (couldn't help myself) said "H, I loved being married to you." H started to tear up, but that was that, and I left.

I am trying so hard to remember the following today:
1. He has the right to leave this relationship. The M is over for him and it should be for me too.
2. The A is a symptom of larger issues.
3. I don't have to stop loving him, I have to find a way to grieve the end of M.
4. I can choose to detach. I can choose not to react to painful happenings.
5. Even if he acts nice or soft or loving or sad, he still has not chosen to be with me. He acts this way because he feels sad or bad, not becuase he wants to be with me. He has chosen OW.

I'm trying lots of self-talk these days, because otherwise I lose sight of the reality of this sitch. My sore tired psyche wants so badly to find something hopeful, that I am in constant danger of conjuring hopeful things - a look, a tear in his eye, etc. Self talk has gotten me through the hardest stuff in my life (e.g. a marathon, childbirth, etc.) Lets see how this goes. I'm not saying there is absolutely no hope - just that I can't tie my mood or my happiness to it.

[Erin]

H stopped by last night to see S2 before his trip to see OW today. He was as tense as ever - signaling what I have always known is true among men: they behave the very worst when they feel guilty. I went for a run and we were able to be okay eating pizza and bathing S2 when I got back. Leaving, though, was awful. I can't say I didn't have some expectation - that he would at least acknowledge where he is going and what he is doing. I guess a tearful goodbye would have been what I expected. Instead I got nothing - he wouldn't even look me in the eye as he headed out the door.
Anyway, I couldn't sleep at all last night. It is a full moon tonight, so it was very bright out last night and that was part of the problem. Today I am exhausted and trying so hard to continue the self talk about how I can't do anything about his actions and that I am going to get through this and be healthy and happy someday. It's tough.

THe good news is, my sister is coming today. She knows nothing. How have y'all managed this? My limited experience is this - mention to a woman that the marriage is in trouble, that H moved out and the first thing they asked is about a OW. H thinks that is rude and inappropriate(!), but there is no way to answer truthfully or otherwise that doesn't give away the truth. This is why I have kept the sitch almost entirely to myself. The wild thing is - H asked if sister would be here when he gets mack on Monday, and assuming I'll tell her where he is, he commented on how uncomfortable that would be. How the hell can it be more uncomfortable to see his SIL than to see me?! I am still his WIFE! A very dear childhood friend is coming through town to see me Saturday and I have the same concern - I can't bear to tell her but I also don't think I can fake it.

All for now. Is it bad that I am secretly hoping his relatively painless little hernia grows and strangulates and ruins his trip? Anybody have a voodoo doll out there?
E

[grasshopper]

Erin,

Sorry, I know this day has haunted you since you began posting. Now that it has come and gone, you COULD try to focus on the REST of the world, especially you sister/friend and all the fun, non-sitch things you could do together.
Maybe to ease your conscious, you could admit to them that you are having problems with H but not admit to all of it. I don't know if that makes it easier or harder for you. I would hate to advocate lying to sis, but then again, we all know that much of the time family & friends do little to help and some to hurt. It may just have to be a judgment call when the time comes.

For me, it would depend on how I thought these people would react and IF they would be receptive to me explaining DB to them. I know in my case, my family would NOT be very accepting of the sitch and it would put tremendous strain on my marriage (by way of open disdain for W), if they knew the truth.
If there were some way you could just totally GAL during this time and focus on you and your visitors, I think you would have an ok time of it. Just make sure you DO what you think is right and then stick by that decision. There is NO right and wrong way to do this, only the way you decide is best, and hopefully that decision is made free from extreme emotion or fear.

Try to stay sane.

GH

[Erin]

I know in my case, my family would NOT be very accepting of the sitch and it would put tremendous strain on my marriage (by way of open disdain for W), if they knew the truth.

This is true for my family as well, GH. They will hate H forever. But, the decision to tell them any info is crazily tied to my hope about the sitch. I can't imagine telling my parents in a year "H and I are divorcing. I don't want to, but its out of my hands. Oh yeah, we've been separated since last April." They love him like a son. They will be devestated. On the other hand, I would continue to avoid honesty about my sitch, even though it is hurting my relationships with people, if I really thought we had a shot of making it through this. As I can't predict the future, I suppose I just need to take a stand. I think I will tell sister most of it - although she's been here all day and I still can't bear to talk about A. Makes it too real to say it out loud...

Needless to say, with H in Germany visiting OW this very minute, my hope quotient is low right now. I think I need to sit on this for a bit longer.

We have MC again next week. I really don't want to continue going if it is just to assuage H's guilt - but how to get a straight answer on this? Or, should I just be happy that he wants to continue to see me in therapy a few times a month, and be glad for whatever aid MC does provide as the separation continues? Do you all see MC as a clear hindrance to DBing, or just a possible hindrance?
e