Quote: PS to GH - your wife has been unwavering in her commitment to her kids - and you are their father. At the end of the day, she gets that she is hurting a family with what she is doing, so she is a different sort of alien than PR's W or my H. Our S can't see that right now. They are leaving our kids just like they are leaving us-blindly. I think in the long run, that gives you a tremendous advantage over muscle bound business man. I know. Small comfort. But take it where you can get it.
Thanks Erin, I really appreciate you taking time to post comments to me on your thread. I do understand the role our kids, AND our commitment to them plays in all this. If anything I am anxious that there is TOO much emphasis placed on the kids, even now. But, no worries. I know I am not only a great dad and my boys love me, but now that I am in shape again, I look great, feel great and will BE great. If she wants to watch, feel her way around (I wish) and then still leave for him, then so be it. Thank you for pointing that out.
The question that I think determines it is: If he's at home with you, how will you act? Will you be able to act "as if" and GAL and seem to be enjoying life, or will you be an emotional wreck, get into arguments with him, and make sarcastic comments?
I've been thinking about this alot. First, a little update on life here in perfect-ville. Tues am, S2 pulls a pot of hot coffee off the counter and burns himself badly. We spent a night at children's hopsital, and were discharged yesterday. God willing, we will avoid skin grafts, but it is still an option if tissue continues to die as it often does with bad 2nd degree burns. He is okay now, coping well with pain, and showing himself to be an incredible little trooper. But, this whole episode has obviously overshadowed the M issues at hand.
H has been sleeping here becuase I needed his help. He agreed to my terms - help with the household and no A calls/emails from this house. I am looking at it as a trial, but very unsure of how to move forward. I mean, I guess I meant it last weekend when I told him I was going to let him go. I still don't want to, but I think I need to. Now, am I still holding out hope of a DB success story? In some ways, yes. It's worth mentioning that I read OT's post to NM about the needy office mate analogy this am and have been sort of overcome by it. Yes, yes, pursuing in any way is so useless, but it so very hard to recognize how repulsive it is when you are the pursuer. I know in my heart OT had me in mind when she talked about folks shooting themselves in the foot here. I'm lucky I can walk at all. That said, I just don't know if continuing to have some shred of hope won't undermine my own need for recovery. Let's face it - I have a formidible task in front of me: I have to WILL myself to stop loving my life's partner. I don't know how. My heart is still open to him - although I'm not sure I could reconcile, I would consider it. Now, how does one navigate this tunnel? I suppose that either way I will have to try to push my love for him down, GAL and hope I am a better person when at long last this ordeal is over. But the day to day living has me puzzled. If I were holding out hope I would be more likely to act as if and/or consider going dark. The truth is, I can't quite imagine leaving here or going dark because I don't believe it is the best for our son. So, having told him I am done trying, am I now doing the last resort, or is my only option "after the last resort"? (which I am not sure I am willing to do.) In terms of the feasability of living with him and keeping the emotion down, I can say that last night was pretty normal - dinner, household chores and a little TV. It felt awful to be so distant of course, but it wasn't intolerable I don't think. Of course, with the drama of S2's burns, maybe I'm not a good judge right now... So, I guess the question is - where am I in DBing? Have I left it behind, or am I just now ready to start? (And how come I don't know the difference?)
Detachment doesn't mean that you stop loving someone. It simply means that you live independently of their actions and deny them control over your emotional state.
I used to have a very close relationship with my mother. She even home-schooled me. We did a lot of things together. However, she has a number of cult-like beliefs that I left behind when I went to college, among them the belief that interracial marriage is an abominable sin. When I asked my W (who is half-Korean) to marry me, I knew that I would no longer have a relationship with my mother, and we have spoken only once, briefly at my grandfather's funeral, in the last six years.
Have I stopped loving my mother? Not in the slightest. If she were to come to me and say, "I've recognized the error of my beliefs and I'd like to be part of your life," then I would welcome her love with open arms.
At the same time, my mother's rejection of me no longer has any emotional impact on me. I am occasionally sad for her that she doesn't know her granddaughter, but that's all.
That's detachment, and it was certainly easier for me to do with my mother than it is proving with my W, but that is the goal.
Here's a good page on detachment. Others have posted some good threads on the topic ... I'll try to find them.
"Detachment doesn't mean that you stop loving someone. It simply means that you live independently of their actions and deny them control over your emotional state."
Most profoundly stated--very concise and efficient. Love the way you've worded it.
Erin, this is excellent advice--put it to work for you--you deserve the peace you'll find because of it,
Well, RBinBR, I think I am finally starting to get this detachment thing. The step by step instructions on the website made me feel like a kindergardener, but it was effective. No, no, I am not even near practicing it correctly, but I think I finally get why it is good and not just a way to destroy loving ties with someone. It's worth mentioning, that I too grew up in a very enmeshed household. My mother is wonderful, eccentric, very talented, but probably has a borderline personality disorder. That said, it honestly took me about ten years to see how she wasn't healthy, decide I wasn't responsible for that, decide that space from her was good, and then effect that distance and detachment. The problem is that after spending the majority of my twenties on this task, and finding peace that I had found an appropriate distance, from her, now at 31 I can honestly say we will never ever be as close as we were. For me, detaching has meant loving less. Of course, this is becuase I somehow entangle love with guilt or duty or control or vulnerability or maybe all of these things. Certanly, it is baggage from how I was raised that I can work on, nonetheless, I see how detachment is good, and I know I have to do it to be healthy with H inside or outside of marriage. It's just so F'ing hard.
H and I went to socail function for his work last night and had a great time. It was so good to be social and just act as if everything was ok for once. Of course, H was stony as ever, but nobody noticed and I just pretended for the evening. Now, today there is the inevitable sadness from returning to our life. H is looking at apartments today. He talked with OW for an hour last night on cell phone - I heard him take the call in the guest room, and then when I asked him today if he was honoring the terms of our agreement (help with household and no A contact from this house) he lied to me. I suppose he should move out. We do not have the money for a second rent, but I guess its all water under the bridge at this point. My only girlfriend who knows the blow by blow is insistent that I should talk with an attorney to protect myself. I am not ready - but I don't want to be dumb. Maybe in due time. Although I am committed to letting go of H, I still DO NOT want D in any way. Should my goal be to start wanting a D just to survive this without feeling vicitimized? No - I suppose detaching effectively would be sufficient.
I read in somebody else's thread (who I wonder?) that all the WAS they have ever known have at some point wanted thier LBS back. I wish I could beleive this. Right now it just seems so hopeless. I guess I'm looking for reassurance where none can be found. I would DB for years if I KNEW it would come to something - but to endure so much for a D I don't want is sometimes too painful to think about.
Finally, a little H talk to air out loud. First, he said several times today how good I looked last night - he noticed other men noticing me and said I was "downright sexy" to which I rolled my eyes.(I wish I'd been cooler, but I didn't know how to act - I mean sexy to whom? He doesn't want me and he knows I won't sleep with anybody else outside of marriage.) He didn't even touch my shoulder once all night. Why say this to me the next day? Does he think he is being charitable by trying to repair some damage to my self-esteem from his A? There is no question that he is not sexually interested in me. Why would he go on about this? Secondly, he talked about the next step in his present job, although he is leaving for high paying new job he will hate in about 6 months. I asked him why and he said he was keeping all his options open for as long as possible. WHF? By pushing his germany trip up two months, and knowing I said I couldn't tolerate that, he knew his options would then be limited with me. Is his statement unrelated entirely, or does he honestly think I am bluffing and would welcome him home now at any minute? Anyway, thanks RB and free to be. I am detaching away - even if only in spirit while I figure it out. Erin
I just wanted to say hi, because others on the board have told me about your situation and how similar it is to mine. My H is having an affair with a woman in Germany, and he is flying out on Tuesday for a week with her. I kicked my H out when I found out about the affair (In January) and although I have read that by far the best way to DB is to keep the spouse in your home, for me I have needed the space too or I would never have been able to DB effectively. Of course, I am not sure that I am but I am surely trying. I personally think my H's affair is completely insane - the OW is married with 2 children and is still in secret from her spouse, and even if she decided to reveal and my H leaves the US to be with her he will lose his business, our home, family and of course ME which in my opinion is looking better and better each day. So my attitude about this is that I need to ride it out. It sucks, I hate it. But she is a lying cheat and I believe if he ever gets to be with her he will figure out the grass isn't so green over there. The hard part for me is I think she may seem more appealing due to the distance - more room for fantasy. It would be hard for me to give him more space so he could miss me more than he misses her, unless I completely go dark at some point - whch I may, we shall see.
Anyway, this may sound crazy, but I think if your H is only 95% sure about the OW, then you need to focus on the 5% that is still yours. Like when he gives you a compliment about how sexy you look, can you be confident and flirty,and say "Thanks, I know!" I get from your thread that you have been suffering, and believe me, I understand. This sucks. But you sound like an amazing person, and a loving mother, and a committed loving wife. I think you need to GAL and have some fun and build some confidence so he keeps turning his head your way. Truly, affairs don't work out. (That was my thread where you read that - they end up wanting to come back, especially if we are no longer sad and mopey...) Affairs start on a bad footing. Lies and dishonesty and a lack of integrity does not build the foundation for a great relationship. Take heart, have confidence. Do not give up. I know this hurts. But you have a little child, and if you can do this, you will affect your child for the better for a lifetime. And your life too since it sounds like you really love your H.
Meanwhile, check out my thread too, and let's connect periodically. I think we're sisters-in-sitch.
Hang in there
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
Hi PL - thanks for checking in with me. I have read your thread as well, an identify with so much of it. We are indeed sisters in sitch, and not just due to frequent flyer miles between here and Frankfort. I really appreciate your warm encouragement at a time when I am feeling so few options. I fear that this will drap on forever becasue it is long distance and hey, who wouldn't love a weekend in the Alps in the springtime? I bet I could fall in love there pretty fast myself! I just pray I have the patience and self control to stop closing doors on myself, and the wisdom to know where to set boundaries in the meantime.
A few things I found some insight on by reading about your life instead of micro-anylzing mine for once: 1. It is difficult for smart, capable, empowered women like us to DB, because we want so badly to do something about our H's, when really the only thing we can work on is ourselves. We are fixers and we have to stop - even though that was partly a good thing in my M. There will be silences (pregnant ones perhaps, where we are both wondering why I didn't just offer to the fix the issue at hand as I always have in the past.) This detachment thing is just now beginning to make some sense to me. 2. Sadly, I have had the same hopes for my H's trip to Germany over Easter weekend - hoping he will see that this A is a false thing - a chimera if you will. But, I think it is a trap to think this way. Keep your expectations low. Remember he is going there is pursuit of love, and he will probably find some form of it. - not the mature knowing love you have shared, but some eros to tide him over to his next visit. Its good to recognize that we don't know what these trips means to them, but putting all our hopes in the least likely outcome is not a good way to treat ourselves.
My H signed a six month lease yesterday for an apartment. I am trying trying trying to let go of him. Of my marriage. Of my, beleive it or not, happy past. I sort if wish he would recognize that there is still a chance for us, but I very confused about how this owuld go. Part of me thinks the only chance we have is if he thinks I have given up. That is, since our R problems are about control to some extent, it seems like my 180 is to give up all expectations of a reconciliation so he can truly feel pressure free. The gentle pressure of knowing I wanted to reconcile may have been too much - although he was responding in small ways... Obviously, I am conflicted about this. It felt good to see his behavior when he was in conflict - hugs, tears, even just talking about our sadness in all this on occasion. And maybe I didn't give that enough time - but with this trip impending, I felt I had to let him know I was letting him go - mostly because I didn't think he would respect me if he thought I would tolerate that. Talk about being pushed into a corner! He actually said "I think you should let me go and not continue to let me denigrate you like this." OK. What else can I do if I want to be a woman worthy of coming back to - even if that is the least likely thing?
He is generally very destructive right now. The rent for this place is steep (everyplace is where we live) - so he is putting the $1000/mo rent on his credit card! He says he will keep up with it, but if that were true why not just write a check every month? His committment to our home isn't changed, but I feel resentful of how his A affects the financial future for me and S2. He hasn't spoken to his mother except to yell at her since she kicked him out of her house last week. His estranged and dying father (who, ahem, left him when he was 2) has tried to contact him and he is not responding. None of his dear friends know the sitch at all, and he is putting heavy pressure on me to keep it that way - saying it compromises his security clearance and his ability to provide for us. So, all this to say, I wish that his self-destructon would lead to some clarity, but there is no end in sight.
On the good side, it has been nice having him home to help with S2 this week. I do feel used, but after S got burned, I really needed the help. H and I ran a 10 miler yesterday. The weather and the course were outstanding, and we both ran much faster than we expected. He seemed genuinely happy for me and proud of me, as I was for him. Before heading to the guest room he commented on how good a day it had been. I have absolutely no illusions that this is waking anything up in him- I only mention it to recognize that I/we are having some nice times like friends. In fact, I suspect that the GAL and acting as if I have been doing actually helps him to leave me. Does anybody else feel this way? I mean, he has said how great I am doing, and how good I look, and it seems he is thinking "phew, now I can really leave her and know she won't fall apart." I don't know any other way to understand it.
One final small thing to work through for myself - when he moves into his apartment next week, he wants to take the guest bed (we really can't afford new furniture too) I am the practical one, and feel that's reasonable, but alas, the guest bed is the one we bought when we got married almost 9 years ago. It is where our son was conceived, where we all rested moments after he was born at home with our midwife, and where we have spent thousands and thousands of hours together as a family. oh yeah, and it is a $3500 restoration hardware sleigh bed. I could see him taking it and just call it a loss, except I just can't stand the thought of him sleeping with OW on it. Am I being too sentimental? I've lost my filter for such things. My best to all who come by here today. Wish I were more upbeat, but Mondays are hard that way. Erin
Quote: One final small thing to work through for myself - when he moves into his apartment next week, he wants to take the guest bed (we really can't afford new furniture too) I am the practical one, and feel that's reasonable, but alas, the guest bed is the one we bought when we got married almost 9 years ago. It is where our son was conceived, where we all rested moments after he was born at home with our midwife, and where we have spent thousands and thousands of hours together as a family. oh yeah, and it is a $3500 restoration hardware sleigh bed. I could see him taking it and just call it a loss, except I just can't stand the thought of him sleeping with OW on it. Am I being too sentimental? I've lost my filter for such things
I did the same thing. I gave my W all the furniture she wanted for her apartment, but not the bed. I couldn't stand it either, and I've actually had a high tolerance for that sort of thing, even spending a night in their love nest last month with all his stuff and hers mixed together. As a matter of fact, the only other thing I have balked at was when she wanted me to listen to a song that OM wrote that his friend's band recorded.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
Thanks for your great reply. This really struck me:
Quote: In fact, I suspect that the GAL and acting as if I have been doing actually helps him to leave me. Does anybody else feel this way? I mean, he has said how great I am doing, and how good I look, and it seems he is thinking "phew, now I can really leave her and know she won't fall apart." I don't know any other way to understand it.
I have felt that myself, that my H is wanting me to look good and GAL and feel really good so then he won't have to feel guilty anymore and can walk away more easily. In the very beginning after the reveal of the affair, almost 3 months ago, when my daughter asked him how I was doing, he replied, "Oh she's doing REALLY well!" etc. My daughter knew how upset I was at that time, so it appeared this was me doing a good early job at DBing along with his need to feel like I was OK and not hurting so he would not have to feel guilty.
So guess what? Today I decided that the guilt was unhealthy for our relationship, and since I am committed to having a healthy relationship (rather than just any relationship) and because we have each been suffering for far too long, I was able to detach. I took a day off today, and thought about if there was anything I needed to say. I had to call him about some legal papers on our house, and was able to do a 180 re: detachment with love at the same time. I'll post more about that on my thread a little later. But I feel so much better. I really get that detachment is key, its just so hard for me to get there sometimes, I am such a strongly passionate person.
Now of course, it would be wonderful if he figures out at some point that he misses me, and that he wants to work on our relationship. I am still committed to our marriage. But I am now going to focus on myself and on disentangling our lives, rather than focusing on him.
I'm proud of you that you are such a good DBer, that you can have him there with your son, do the run with him, etc. and be his friend. I know how hard this is. I have the same kind of discomfort about the rising costs of my H's choices, and the lack of sentimentality over material possessions. My H came by to pick up his leather jacket for his trip. It was the first Xmas present I got for him, when we were engaged. I always loved him in it, but he never wore it much with me. And now he'll wear it with her? Go figure. My thoughts about the bed are, what will feel worse, keeping it around as a constant reminder of your lost family life, or letting him have it? Sometimes stuff holds energy for us that we will benefit from letting go of. Just a thought.
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
So much keeps happening. It sure does seem like it is raining misery on our house lately. Well, H's estranged father tried to contact him last week - H only e-mailed back to middle man "Why, what does he want?" - and now I read H's father's obituary online. He died the same day he was trying to contact H. He is not sad. Says he doesn't feel anything. Won't send anything to widow, won't even call to see how he died. He was only 54. H thinks that unresolved father issues have nothing to do with current sitch - even though "shared experience growing up is what brought us together" he said in January. I guess I can't be the woman for him becuase my father is a loving and kind man who is married to my mother and even loves H to death (that is, until he finds out about sitch.) Then, last night, he is lifting downstairs and comes up to have me feel his belly. Yep. Another hernia. He had one repaired about 6 years ago on the other side. He is only 34. Man, you should have seen the tailspin this put him in. I guess I have to remember that his ego is totally overblown right now, but this hernia, this insult to his manhood, had him practically in tears and cursing god. When I, honestly trying to offer some comfort, said, "Hey, I know things are heavy now, but this hernia has a solution. It's the least of your problems" He was mean as a snake, saying "thanks for minimizing my feelings" etc. Gawwd. Later, he said that he thinks he is being punished with bad karma for his actions. S2 was burned last week badly, his father died, and he now needs surgery. He said he was afraid of dying on the operating table or, becoming impotent from surgery. (Hah! Is there such a thing as karmic justice?!) I know that this sort of thinking is normal for somebody who is looking externally for answers to everything, when the answers really lie within him. I feel really supersticious myself right now. I wanted so badly to say - well then, make a different choice! but I knew he wouldn't hear me. So, in all he was a true jerk to me last night, but I was able to stay pretty cool, and not take it personally, and even pointed out that he was treating me badly when really I have nothing to do with his circumstances.
Another detachment victory: He sent me e-mail yesterday about his work schedule in June. I work weekends, a 24 hour call shift every other weekend now (but every weekend for the nine months before A, in case you are wondering how the heck a nice couple like us got into trouble. H, of course, thinks my work schedule had NOTHING to do with it. Hah!) He has a conference in Germany in June for 1 week. However, he e-mails that he will be gone for two weeks. Obviously, taking a week of leave to see OW. Now, two problems with this:1. I need to work one of these weekends while he watches S2, and he knows it and he didn't consult, and 2. How come he gets european vacation every two months and S2 and I get none? Notice, I didn't flip out about him seeing her though? I am starting to detach. I'm not saying it doesn't hurt like he!!, I'm just noticing that I can compartmentalize what I need to react to. I know he wants to be with her. This doesn't change that. How he is going about it maybe deserves some attention. What do y'all think - can I try to discuss his thoughtless scheduling and budgeting without him thinking I am quibbling about him seeing her? If not, then I'll just let it go like so much other water under the bridge - but I wonder if some OT type out there would tell me to stand up for myself about the money and childcare issues. However, I didn't let it rule my mood or my evening, and until I decide how to manage this I'll keep quiet. Compare that to how I was devestated finding out about his trip to Germany next week. I am really doing better. Now, I still cry every day and feel so sad about the end of my M, but I finally get it that I can't fix it. It might get fixed soemday, but that is the least likely outcome. For now I just try to have faith in what people tell me - that either way, I will be happy again. Someday. erin
but I am surely trying. I personally think my H's affair is completely insane - the OW is married with 2 children and is still in secret from her spouse, and even if she decided to reveal and my H leaves the US to be with her he will lose his business, our home, family and of course ME which in my opinion is looking better and better each day. So my attitude about this is that I need to ride it out. It sucks, I hate it. But she is a lying cheat and I believe if he ever gets to be with her he will figure out the grass isn't so green over there. The hard part for me is I think she may seem more appealing due to the distance - more room for fantasy. It would be hard for me to give him more space so he could miss me more than he misses her, unless I completely go dark at some point - whch I may, we shall see.
I really appreciate your warm encouragement at a time when I am feeling so few options. I fear that this will drap on forever becasue it is long distance and hey, who wouldn't love a weekend in the Alps in the springtime? I bet I could fall in love there pretty fast myself! I just pray I have the patience and self control to stop closing doors on myself, and the wisdom to know where to set boundaries in the meantime.