Quote: Now, about Germany - I agree that reacting is a bad idea - I just don't see any options here. I'm not ready to make any decisions or give an ultimatum, but I am anticipating how painful it will be to know he is there with her, and I just can't imagine how I will cope. How will I look him in the eye after? How will he look me in the eye?
Erin, is there any way you can get away for a vacation of your own? Just sitting at home while he's in Germany with the OW will be unbearable. Can you get a relative to watch your S?
Btw, if you haven't read them yet, I would suggest Surviving an Affair by Willard Harley and Love Must be Tough from Dr. James Dobson in addition to DR.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
Well, it's done. Yesterday H said he WAS going to Germany, and wasn't considering not going. I said I couldn't tolerate that. He said I should let him go, and not let him denegrate me like that. I said okay. I tried to make it my decision - that I was letting him go becuase I saw that he was already gone, and so I was done with him. We talked about D - a year away in Va because we have a child. We talked about his A - I asked him to a to least own that it is THE major issue at this point keeping him from considering reconciliation. He will not own that. I went too far in saying that they won't make it. Their R is fantasy. Furthermore, he is operating on pure fantasy when he rationalizes that his relationship with S2 won't change. He can't see it right now, anymore than he can see his loving wife in front of his cheating nose. We talked a bit about his issues in the larger sense. Entitlement and ego. I encouraged him to work on him. There are a few more big things, but the point is that we are done. I don't think that is what you all meant by detaching, is it? I am numb and devastated, but mostly I still think I had to tell him I couldn't tolerate him continuing to see her and not giving me any chance. The thing is, he still says he is only 95% sure. I asked him why he would go forward, with such serious consequences, when he is only 95% sure. He doesn't know. I suppose I am done with this board and done with DB, no? Letting him go is letting him go in my book. I think that seeing this as a step in getting him back is tempting to my devastated psyche, but ultimately not true or useful. I'm not sure how to go forward myself, but I know I will.
I am sorry things went down like that. As for it meaning you are done here, well, that is up to you honey. It CAN mean that for sure. I think we all understand here that each of us has that line, and when out WAS cross it, we cannot go on with the process. That line is in RADICALLY different for everyone. Where one person can deal with their spouse taking week long vavcations with the OP, others can't take even knowing their spouse HAS an OP. For some, the line is drawn when the WAS starts taking calls at home from OP, or maybe when it is confirmed as physical, etc.
Only YOU can decide where the line is for you, and when enough is enough. Your H says he isn't sure. That's probably true, and in the state he's in right now, that uncertainty leads him to explore the truly unknown, even at the risk of losing what he already has. It sucks, but they all do it to varying degrees.
I truly understand you not wanting to let your heart feel his 95%-ness as a positive. I really do understand. Fact is that you may be deciding it's over and now you may see him start to come back. It happened to Tim, and countless others here. It's natural because the WAS want what they cannot have. Now that he cannot have you, you become the alluring prospect. That REALLY sucks because I believe you when you say it's over. I am NOT saying to hold out hope, again, that's not something someone else can make you do.
I guess I hope, for your sake, that he does realize his error and though you may have moved on, that you have a tiny crack in the wall to see him coming.
Erin, would you still want him back? That's the key question.
If you do still want him back, then you are not at the end of your rope by any means.
Quote: The thing is, he still says he is only 95% sure. I asked him why he would go forward, with such serious consequences, when he is only 95% sure. He doesn't know.
An affair is a kind of addiction, Erin. He is addicted to the OW the same way a druggie is addicted. He feels that he can't help himself. Trust me when I tell you that he's very unsure and will become more so in the near future.
From what I can tell of your emotional state, I would advise you to "go dark" at this point. That's what Michele calls the "after the last resort" technique. You absolutely, completely stop seeing him and talking to him. If he wants to visit with S2, then you drop him off at your MIL's or somewhere else and then pick him up. If you have to communicate about something like taxes, do it in writing.
I did this for three weeks and it was amazing how much hurt and anger I was able to get over during that time. I could relax, because I never had to worry about what I was going to say to my W or what she was going to say to me.
You can either do this for yourself for a while (like I did) to get your emotions together, or you can decide to do it permanently and let him know that you won't speak to him until the A is completely over.
This also has the added benefit of forcing your H to come out of his fantasy world and face reality.
Good luck!
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
PR and GH - want to respond to both of your posts - but I have a new conundrum and not much time, and since I haven't slept in days I can't see my way through it clearly - IN short (since I only have a few minutes to type) H called this am. MIL kicked him out last night. I saw it coming, and between the bottle of wine she drank and her anger in hearing that I didn't think we were going to make it, she kicked him out. He called this am asking why I didn't invite him home to sleep in the guest room. I said that onus was on him. He wanted to know my terms. I said I wasn't sure if it would be okay, that he made his bed, and that this was my space now for recovery. He was a bit defensive, since he does pay all the bills, and we can't afford for him to rent an apartment. Let me first say that I am always very practical in making decisions, and he is always emotional in making decisions. Do I: 1. let him come home as a roommate, with no expectations, and just be glad to have another adult here helping with S2? 2. Say no way - he must learn to live with his choices. And also try to protect this space for me without having to watch him conduct his affair from our home. Last week I would have said he could only come home if he ended it with her. Why would I think any differently now? 3. See this as a blessing in disguise - now that he would be home with no exepctations at all, I would have the chance to be near him and remind him how great I am and S2 is?
I see the practical solution - since there really isn't any extra money. But, I know he isn't making practical decisions, and I do want to honor myself and maintain some integrity. Finally, I wonder if it ins't a trap to start thinking that me saying I'm done will get him to come around. I know it won't, but I am so bruised and sad that my fragile little mind wants to invent ways in which this will work out. Thoughts? Erin
Erin, I would say to do what's right for you, and not to worry about the money. I mean, if you end up with a D, he's going to have to pay child support and some alimony, right? He'll have to basically pay for two residences then, right?
Personally, I don't think you can handle his being around before the trip. I think it would drive you nuts.
On the other hand, it would help you with S2, and the ability to leave S2 with H might enable you to go out and GAL more.
I think that just about everyone on this board would say that if you can handle your S being at home and can DB effectively from that position, that's generally better. I couldn't handle it, and I'm glad I kicked my W out, so you have to take my advice from that standpoint.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
Quote: I think that just about everyone on this board would say that if you can handle your S being at home and can DB effectively from that position, that's generally better. I couldn't handle it, and I'm glad I kicked my W out, so you have to take my advice from that standpoint.
I often wonder about this, I really do. Erin, my W lives at home, and the OM is still around but she goes WAY out of her way to NOT throw things in my face. I don't know if that's good or bad since it involves lies and deception on her part, but it DOES allow me to retain some sanity even if it's derived from denial. What I am saying is that yes, I have made it work thus far with my W living at home, and yes, I can see how it may be better this way, HOWEVER, it is VERY difficult to have her around as a CONSTANT reminder of what is and what is not. Sometimes I feel that it would be easier if she were not at home. I sometimes, and I know it's crazy, envy some of those who get to "go dark" and "GAL" without all the complexities of having their WAS living with them. Certain things would be MUCH easier without her around, but then again, winning her back may be MUCH harder. I dunno since I have not experienced both scenarios. Tim did and I think he would tell you that as hard as it was, having her in the house was better in the long run.
What RB said about most people here thinking it is preferable to have WAS at home...well...frankly, most people here DON'T or never have had their WAS living at home while the affair still continued. The few that HAVE gone through this I would think have mixed feelings like I do.
Like RB said, you need to do what's right for you. You COULD try it out and see how things go, but you need to have boundaries, which even he suggested when he asked your terms for him to come back.
Quote: I think that just about everyone on this board would say that if you can handle your S being at home and can DB effectively from that position, that's generally better.
I'll clarify that some more and say that it depends on your sitch.
For example, my 31-year-old W is having an A with a 20 year old kid who's a thief, is about to declare bankruptcy, has no job and no education (not even a HS diploma), and is prone to angry outbursts. I KNOW that this OM will never be able to satisfy my W's emotional needs. I KNOW that their A will eventually end. So it doesn't matter that much to me that my kicking her out caused her to run to OM's arms and live with him. If my W were having an affair with the businessman of the year who also heads up a major charity project and won a bodybuilding contest, I might be a tad more concerned about my decision to kick her out. I am also in a position where my W cannot file for D for another 21 months, so I don't have to worry about that.
The question that I think determines it is: If he's at home with you, how will you act? Will you be able to act "as if" and GAL and seem to be enjoying life, or will you be an emotional wreck, get into arguments with him, and make sarcastic comments?
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
Quote: If my W were having an affair with the businessman of the year who also heads up a major charity project and won a bodybuilding contest,
Lol, this pretty much describes what I know about my W's OM. Sucks to know that the competition (yea, yea, yea, I know, we are not in competition with them) looks like a model and seems to have a little money.
Quote: The question that I think determines it is: If he's at home with you, how will you act? Will you be able to act "as if" and GAL and seem to be enjoying life, or will you be an emotional wreck, get into arguments with him, and make sarcastic comments?
VERY VERY good advice. Perfect. This IS the major question that should determine what you do.
Thanks so much guys for helping me flesh this scenario out. When I came home Sunday night after saying I couldn't tolerate him going to Germany, and so we were done, I was contemplating either leaving with S2 and fleeing home to family (none of whom know the sitch, BTW) or staying here and going dark. Really dark. As dark as one can go with toddler in tow. So, now that he wants to come home, I am too confused. I know he wants to come home to make his life easier, and it has NOTHING to do with US, but it could be an opportunity of sorts. Yes, GH, I lived with H for two months knowing about A and it is so tough. When he did leave it was his doing - I thought I could act as if some more. But that was a month ago, and we were still making progress and he wasn't planning a trip to Germany and lying to me about it. Now, I just don't know. I keep thinking I should do the thing most likely to help him come back into his right mind - because I usually make decisions based on the desired outcome - but I am finally really getting it that I can't know the outcome here and I can't support one outcome over another with my actions anyway.
Having him home could make some things so much easier - childcare, household things, the dog etc. But, I also see that as a source of conflict when he lets me down as he may well do. I told him last night (on no sleep in 36 hours and very unsure of myself) that he could come home for a few weeks as a trial, and that I would expect him to help with the household and that he could not bring his A into this space - no calls or e-mailing from here. He was defensive - "I pay the bills" "I don't have to ask you to live there" and other crap - I think becuase he is not used to me having ANY control in this sitch. He said lots of "then just forget it" stuff. I, okay, I did see an advantage for S2 in having him home and he should consider that. He said I'd know his decision if he came home tomight. (He's been in his office for two nights now)
Now, how to act if he comes? I can't act like his wife, and that will be hard even after all these months of abuse. Do I make him dinner? Leave him some in the fridge? I need to walk a line between GAL and not having him here as a boarder with no responsibilities. In the months before he left I was so June Cleaver about our home life - wanting to normalize so badly - that I can't imagine how it should be now. I guess the question is - can I "last resort" with him now that I have said I'm no longer waiting around for him to make the right decision? Or, is that exactly when one can "last resort" effectively?
I suppose seeing this as a trial is perhaps best if it does happen. But then, if it is bad for me after all, will I have the strength to make him leave? It's not like the OW is a loser - sure she is morally bankrupt and short on ethics and possibly an alcoholic, but she is an attorney and fun and likely attractive and about 7 years younger than me and she has no kids to complicate life and split her attention. In short, thier fantasy life isn't too bad a fantasy. In comparison, our life here is complicated. S2 is very needy these days. Money is a struggle now since H is burning it left and right. I love what I do (I'm a midwife) but I hate my job and childcare is always a struggle (I won't put him in a daycare center.) Can I act as if so well that all these challenges seem to melt away? Or will he come back to the chaos he has created and see us as the worse choice? I suppose it doesn't matter. He has made his choice. This is just a way of living until D, or until he starts new job and can afford an apartment, right? Typing this out is helping, but I am still unsure. Thanks again GH and PRinBR for your insight. We'll see where he sleeps tonight... Erin PS to GH - your wife has been unwavering in her committment to her kids - and you are thier father. At the end of the day, she gets that she is hurting a family with what she is doing, so she is a different sort of alien than PR's W or my H. Our S can't see that right now. They are leaving our kids just like they are leaving us-blindly. I think in the long run, that gives you a tremendous advantage over muscle bound business man. I know. Small comfort. But take it where you can get it.
