Quote: So, even though I read this through and feel ashamed of how whiny and useless it is,
you have no need to feel any shame. You are among friends - and at the beginning of what is likely to be a long and tiring journey - so no shame, no blaming yourself and no beating yourself up for your use or absence of db skills.
DBing is a tool, one that is designed to put a framework around your behaviour while you live through a terrible set of circumstances. It's not a guarantee, it's not a miracle cure, but it is the most effective tool for going through marriage crisis I can find - and like all tools, you need to use it for different reasons/ways than others need to. No harm in that.
Erin, has your husband told your MC that he is still in contact with ow? Has he told you or MC that he has ceased contact with her? I only ask because a MC worth his/her salt should be able to sus that out.
So, your husband only moved out one and a half weeks ago? Is that right? If so these are early days girlfriend. Are his family supportive? Are yours?
I understand what you are getting at re resentment at being a single mum. It is outrageously unfair and there are strategies you can employ to ensure that your husband is sharing the responsibilities. Perhaps you could use MC as the place to set up some more flexible arrangements so you get some help?
OK - finding out he's calling the ow.
Erin - I'm sorry honey, I really am. They lie and they lie and they lie. However, there is nothing you can do about who he calls or who's place he crashes at. You guys are separated now, and regardless of whether you reconcile or not, his activities now are his business and all you can do is focus on yourself.
You know the rhetoric - GAL, Act as If, - move it from rhetoric to something real for you. Exercise, join a book club (a novel is a friend indeed - there are only so many self-help books one can read!!), take up a hobby. Do things that you have always thought to yourself would be fun. I know that it is tough with the little one to look after, get your husband (or his parents) to babysit.
You have a window of opportunity here, while he is off in lala land, to work on yourself and use the time you are working on yourself to work through the grief and the anger you feel with your husband.
It is so often said, but remains true to the core - you can't do anything about how he behaves right now - you can only chose how you behave - and I suspect you might surprise even yourself if you put your mind to it.
I'll check back in on you.
Take care, Virginia
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
Hi Erin, I had to respond to your post as it really hit home for me. My H does the same exact things, and I really felt bad when you mentioned your H talking to OW while watching the baby. That kinda thing kills me with my H too. And I also understand when you say: "he is talking an e-mailing with her compulsively and daily. I mean, is there a better way to fall out of love with someone than cutting them out of your day to day life?" - but I do tend to believe (maybe too optimistic) that while the WASs may TRY to block us out and forget everything by being so wrapped up in OW - that it will likely prove futile for them. These crazy, obsessive Rs with the OW are not based on any solid ground, and infact are rooted in all of the confusion of the WAH's totally unresolved feelings about US. Somehow, some day, they are bound to fall apart. I like to imagine that my H will eventually (if I can manage to go dark as planned!!) start thinking about me when he is with OW more and more, if he doesn't already. Your H seems as confused as mine, so I think that may be the case for you too! If the OWs are bandaids, well, bandaids don't heal, they just cover up. And they certainly don't last... Stay strong, and good luck!
flutterbyme - thanks for your insight - Yes I too have on occasion wondered how the heck he could have conjured up so much emotion for somebody he doesn't even know! The answer I keep soming back to is this: that love he is sharing with her, showering upon her, soaking up with her is really his affection for me horribly misplaced. I think of it like this - if you beleive in physics, and you believe in the law of conservation of energy, then how on earth can new love appear out of nowhere?(Air Supply lyrics would help here) For whatever reason, he can't be close to me right now - perhaps MLC, perhaps my own failings in this marriage, probably some of both - so he sends the love he has cultivated for me over the last twelve years to OW! As I type I see how cooky this sounds, and I swear I haven't been drinking. It's just that you really got me to thinking about what our H's are feeling when they are with OWs. And also, thanks so much to saying that you do think they can come back from this neverland of A. I pray every day for the patience this process takes.
Virginia - if you are reading - I can't tell you how your words helped me through today. I have really been feeling low and inpatient and have worried that I don't have the discipline for this. Anyway, I'd like to stew on what you've said for a bit, but in the meantime, wanted you to know that I so appreciate the time and wisdom you are extending to me. Thanks Erin
Dear Erin... Just want to tell you that it's okay to flounder in your DBING... You are still fairly new at this. Gawd...I am at it for almost a year and I am still as wishy-washy as ever at time. Like you, I've snooped and made myself feel like sh!t. I know that I need to stop and yet am addicted to find out the truth. And it hurts like hell when you find out that they are still lying their pants off. I've had H telling me that he wants to come back to the family, had told the ow yadda yadda yadda..and yet I find out that he has been lying and been with her instead of coming back to see his boys. So.... snooping is bad bad bad. Whether we snoop or not, whether we like it or not, they are gonna lie. lie. lie. So why do we torture ourselves? I am actually asking this question myself too!!! Why do I do it??
THe other thing that is very very important is NEVER NEVER confronting the ow! You will be the BAD guy in front of your H's eyes. NEVER! Remember NEVER!! If you do, he will be the hero that saves the ow from distress. And you will be the wicked witch. As it is, he is not so nice and if you confront the ow...you will go backwards sooooo many steps that it would difficult to get back to this spot. Always I repeat Always take the HIGH road!! She is a skank that is not worth your time or effort to even talk to her. Remember that!! I know the temptation is great. I know... I know where she works. I know where she lives. I have her mobile number. I know her car number. I even know her passport number. Heck..I could do loads...but I don't. I wouldn't say my sitch has improved by leaps and bounds...but its not getting worse I guessed...
If you wanna check my yoyo-ing experiences..it's under "Still Yoyo-ing about #6"...Yup... it's been a long long time.... Bomb was 2 April 2005. H had moved to another country to work for the last 6 1/2 months... We still see each other at least once a fortnight, still have s@x each time we meet, still no papers in sight, he is still seeing ow. That is the summary. Loads of confusion in H's part. And my ups and downs on the roller coaster ride...
oh my lord. My knees are weak. Feel like vomiting. Was checking mail, quickly even though I have to work in five hours, to post a little note of feeling encouraged tonight after talking to H. But, I SWEAR I was not snooping, only trying to sort out some voicemail, so I looked at H's yahoo account quickly - not snooping because all illicit behavior always goes through his work address - and found an itinerary to Germany next month. I feel like my heart is breaking all over again. It's not the A, so much as the lying. How can he be saying he is looking for distance and objectivity when he is telling me about his "hiking trip to Shenandoah" over Easter weekend, and instead booking a weekend with her? PLease send me some advice on how to understand this sort of lie. Nobody knows our sitch except my sister in law (a pschycologist) and our MC. Called sister in law tonight who is supportive of DB, but feels this sort of lie is too unnacceptable. She thinks I should call for emergency MC appt. next week, and tell him I know about trip, and say that lying is not okay, and then it is up to him what he does with it. I don't see it going well. I see it being like every other time I have caught him in a lie - where he acts like it is my fault he lied (acts like it becuase he believes it in some F'd up way) and then is very angry with me and says it is over. On the other hand, I don't see how I can go forward knowing about this trip. This is, of course, why we shouldn't snoop. I just don't see right now how I can DB through this. This betrayal really does top the others - and I don't think it is just becuase it is a fresh new betrayal - although I might be wrong on that. I mean, we have really had a good week. I have seen real change in him towards me - hugs and kissed me on the mouth tonight, even said I love you before he left this evening. I know many of you have put up with this sort of thing - and I wonder how. Lord, I know that sounded sarcastic - but I swear I really meant it - How? How do I overlook this lie and then pretend he is working on things with me when I know this trip is pending or taking place? I feel like I'm cracking up here. Really. I know I have been through this with the bomb on 2jan and again when I discovered the A on 22Jan, but I really wonder how resilient I can be. I don't have the option of lying in bed for a week - I have a 2 yo who deserves two good parents. Right now he doesn't have any. Forgive my pity party - I just feel so desperate right now. Lord help me.
I can totally relate to your doubt, and to your story in general. I also have a son, 3 1/2, and never ever wanted to be a single mom! I found out my H was having an A (he claims, an EA) about 5 mos ago and aft 1 mos of MC (and finding out he was still in contact w/ OW) I asked him to move out. Since then it has been one lie/cover-up after the next. His first big lie was about staying at a friend's house and spending Thanksgiving weekend with him....I called said friend the day before Thanksgiving only to find that they had had coffee once and that was the extent of their contact. Instead my H went to LA to be w/ the OW and supposedly ended up in ER w/ anxiety attack . I found the DR a couple of months ago and since I've been DB'ing I don't seem to notice as much lying. I try hard not to snoop (not perfectly) and am trying to just focus on me. I still catch H in lies, and honestly I can't understand why he continues to lie when I already know about the OW, but whatever. In MC 2 wks ago (we go for the sake of our son) he admitted to not being happy, that maybe he had made a mistake. Meanwhile I was beaming from just taking care of me. Anyway, he said he was happy for me. In MC this wk he seemed cold again. What I'm realizing is what I've read here - don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see! My H seems so confused and ambivalent, it is worse if I get rooted into anything he says at this point. I guess I'm just trying to share with you that - no matter how big a lie, no matter how painful, no matter how seemingly damaging - it is not the end of the story. Keep the Faith! M
Monica
My sitch: Me 40 H 30 M 8 yrs 1 S5.5 Bomb Oct 2005 Sep Nov 2005 H w/ Ow I filed for LS June 2007 H responded w/ D 2007 I have sole P custody, joint L Just need to take care of Final Judgement papers
honestly I can't understand why he continues to lie when I already know about the OW Yes...it does make you wonder doesn't it? Why need to lie when we already know about ow??? Mine still lies like crazy.
Erin - I know how this hurts. I know the lies are the worst...and lies on top of lies. WHen does it end? Yup..I guessed I did wonder HOW can I still have s#x with him knowing that he's with ow....but I guessed sometimes you just need to block it ALL out. I think if you ask me, I think the thin string that still bound us together in the worst of our sitch was the s#x sessions. Yes, we have two wonderful chilren together, but that was not enough to make him come back. And like you, I don't want to be a single parent. But to my H...his rationale "there are thousands of single parent families and the kids grow up fine.". So that didnt' work with him.
I know that there is the risk of STDs but .... what can I say???
Also, a different way of looking at it (silly but could work) is that your H lies to "protect" you from the truth of him wanting to spend time with ow. So, in a way, he still cares for you. These WAS vacillates continuously. He wants ow. He wants you... So that is why he is still giving you the hugs and kisses but the pull of the ow is too great.... NEW, EXCITING, DIFFERENT... There are just some things that a wife can never provide...the thrill and excitment of a new conquest.
Also, you may want to box-up all your feelings and emotions about your H (I know that in your mind, questions like "how could he do this to me? would I still want to be with a guy who thinks so little of me? etc...yup...did go through all these emotions and questioning) into a box and put it away. For me (which in a DBING sense is BAD)...I take it as a challenge of NOT having ow win the game. I don't focus on my H not caring for my feelings. ...instead, I try to be nice (sometimes NOT successful, I have to admit!) and normal....and confuse him more!! LOL...so that he CANNOT find any good excuse to blame me or to leave me outright! In this way, he cannot be 100% sure of going to ow...as long as that is the case, ow has not won..... May not work for anyone... but it does work for me occasionally.
I know it's hard not to try to find out the REAL status... I have the same problem...but I guessed it is time to ACT AS-IF and be nice to him and confuse him Because if you are upset and scream and all, he can be angry at you, put the blame on you etc. Besides, the WAS expects the LBS to be angry, and when you are not, it knocks them off guard and they don't really know how to react. My H always thought that I would kick him out and file for D papers the moment I found out. But the fact that I didnt' and remained calm (most of the time) really surprised him. Like I said, no great improvements in my sitch, but there are little baby steps....
hey y'all i could really use some insight. See my post last night about discovering how my H is planning getaway in the alps with OW over easter after telling me elaborate lies about a solo hiking trip. Talked with MC this morning - who recommends a confrontation about the lying, if not the seeing of OW, early next week when H returns from business trip. I am so scared he will call it quits, but I don't know how else to go forward. Yes, maybe this is his goodbye trip - but how many of those does one get? I just can't cope again and I guess I am feeling a little bit motivated to bring this into the light just so I don't have to live in this seesaw existance. I sense that calling him on his lie is very non DB, but don't know what else to do. Its not really an ultimatum - rather a boundary about lying to me. (Am I justifying a confrontation?) I'd appreciate any advice y'all have for me. Please. Erin
So after much deliberation, and very little sense of what was the right thing to do, I confronted H about lying to me yesterday. He called from airport to do our twice weekly "marriage conference" It was my turn to go first - I had 15 minutes, I simply said "I know you are going to Frankfurt over Easter, I am very hurt that you orchestrated a lie about going on a solo camping trip to figure things out when you were really planning to see OW. I am confused becuase we had agreed to at least be honest with each other. " He said nothing. Asked to talk with S2 - who wouldn't talk to him becuase he hasn't seen him in a week - and then asked me how I knew. I said that I wish I didn't know, I came across the info inadvertantly, and I wasn't going to discuss how I knew right then because it was diverting the importance of the imformation back onto me. He was mad. So mad he didn't even yell....or maybe not - I guess if I were acting as if, I'd have to say I don't know how he was feeling, except that he said I wasn't being honest with him becuase I didn't tell him how I knew his plan, I guess he really didn't say much. I tried very hard to be the one ending the phone call, but it was a little hairy. I don't know what I hoped to accomplish with telling him, I just know that I didn't think I could go forth as if I didn't know, and so I didn't have much of an option. BTW, I didn't tell him not to go, only that I was hurt by his lie.
So, in the aftermath, I feel petrified. What if this is the thing that puts him over the hill to the point of no return? Isn't it funny with DBing how the goal is to see we have no control, except in the case where we ruin things - i.e. push or pursue or beg. I mean, if we really have no impact on our S, then these things wouldn't hurt either, right? Anyway, I am consumed with fear right now. I feel like I did in the beginning - can't eat, can't sleep, can't hardly imagine how I am going to get through the days. I know that there was no good conversation we could have had last night, but I so wanted SOMETHING back from him. I know I know. That's the problem. I need to just feel good that I set a boundary about lying to me - in fact, I was acting as if when I told him becuase I was acting as if I'm not controlled by my fear - although I mostly am. The timing of this just sucks so badly. I really do think he was shifting a little. He had said alot lately about missing us and he even said the other day "I didn't forget everything about our marriage." So, I have a tiny hunch that he was going to break things off with her - and although all of us here see that a plan like that stinks and only entangles people more, I suspect that really was his intention. Either that, or as I type this I realize, perhaps he was just acting nicer and more affectionate because he had a huge lie on his shoulder to cover and also try not to feel bad about - maybe he thought acting like he was considering reconciliation would mitigate his guilt in going to see her over Easter. Nevertheless, I just didn't see how I could pretend I didn't know. THe last time he did this was January, right before I found out about the A, and I when I found out I thought how I would have done ANYTHING to keep him from seeing her and cementing thier A (before that it had just been a fling with addict style calls and e-mail, after it was "love") I wonder if that memory is what drove me to act on this. I suppose I could have tried to Db through this lie too - acting as if, hoping he would cancel the trip, but I eventually would have felt how I feel now becuase he wouldn't have cancelled. I guess I'm acting on the principle that bad news never gets better with age.
I recognize that part of the reason I feel so desperate is that I have very little support when times are bad. The only people who know the whole story are my sister in law and my marriage counselor. I have one girlfriend who knows most of the story, but she is becoming inpatient with H and is starting to reflect that she thinks I am being a doormat, so I don't confide in her anymore. None of my family knows - they would kill him, and in the best case scenario of reconciliation, its best not to muddy that water. Anyway, all of my friends are happliy married women, mostly with a toddler and a new baby, and I just can't burden them with this - besides - who has time to talk about it when raising kids! Nobody even knows we are separated. When old friends call I just don't call them back to avoid lying to them about my M. I see that this is destructive, but I don't know another way about it that wouldn't cause problems if we do reconcile. I suppose I could try to go to counseling by myself again, but I'm not sure how that helps - my past experience was with a counselor who wanted me to be happy, and put her energy into helping me see a peaceful end to the marriage. I don't want an end to the marriage. But maybe some of you have wrestled with this youselves?
So, for now time moves so slowly, and I just take it minute by minute. It stinks that I have worked so hard over the last three months to GAL and start detatching only to feel like such a newbie again. I don't think this is what y'all mean when you say to start with a beginners mind... E
It is so tough, Erin. I know that it can be very difficult. I think that the best thing you can try to do emotionally is to let him go. Don't stop loving him, but try to accept that your marriage is over (at least, it will be a different marriage if he ever returns to it).
When I came to accept that my marriage was over, I was much better able to focus on "dating" my W and doing things that were likely to bring her back. You may want to see Tim's thread for the extraordinary results that he got when he "let go" of his marriage.
I also think you should look for a 180 to do. It might be that you stop talking to him altogether and stop doing your 15 minutes a week. It might be something else. You may also want to revisit GAL and find something new to do.
You CAN get through this and be a happier and better person for it.
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
. I found the DR a couple of months ago and since I've been DB'ing I don't seem to notice as much lying. I try hard not to snoop (not perfectly) and am trying to just focus on me. I still catch H in lies, and honestly I can't understand why he continues to lie when I already know about the OW, but whatever. In MC 2 wks ago (we go for the sake of our son) he admitted to not being happy, that maybe he had made a mistake. Meanwhile I was beaming from just taking care of me. Anyway, he said he was happy for me. In MC this wk he seemed cold again. What I'm realizing is what I've read here - don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see! My H seems so confused and ambivalent, it is worse if I get rooted into anything he says at this point. I guess I'm just trying to share with you that - no matter how big a lie, no matter how painful, no matter how seemingly damaging - it is not the end of the story. Keep the Faith! M 
Because if you are upset and scream and all, he can be angry at you, put the blame on you etc. Besides, the WAS expects the LBS to be angry, and when you are not, it knocks them off guard and they don't really know how to react. My H always thought that I would kick him out and file for D papers the moment I found out. But the fact that I didnt' and remained calm (most of the time) really surprised him. Like I said, no great improvements in my sitch, but there are little baby steps....