I am new to this forum, so forgive me any transgressions in style etc. I just need some help - badly. DH told me Jan2 that he wanted out of marriage after 8.5 years and a darling 2 y.o. son. I said no, give us the chance of counseling, he agreed, but begrudginly. We went, and I was committed to the process, but having a hard time understanding what the actual issues are...well, you all guessed it. On Sunday night my son found a card and a book that his OW had given him. He wouldn't not even own up for hours after that - and still told me many lies. I now know that they met on a business trip Dec 2. and then e-mailed and called (alot) and then he said he hadn't seen her since, but in fact, spent Jan13-16 with her while I thought he was on business. (I saw the credit card statement. Duh.) I think there are still more lies, but then again, of course there are. He said he was trying to save my feelings! Counseling was slow, but I think our two sessions had gotten us somewhere, considering the other work we/I were doing. He said he was "intrigued" by the idea of a brand new marriage to me. He had been nice, but no physical touch, although I was almost begging for it before I knew about the affair. So, now what do I do? He will not stop contacting her. He says they are in love. HE says they have no plans to be together right now or to meet, but I know this is a lie from reading his e-mails - they plan a week together in Germany this summer. I desperately want to get to the business of working on our marriage and forgiving him, but I don't know how to handle the lies, how to handle my daily grief, or even how to act when he comes home at night. For example, I get it that I need to stop nagging and pursuing for sure - but I have a hard time just letting him claim to stay late at work for hours because of work deadlines and then not see out son AT ALL, when I know from phone records that they talk 6 times a day for hours sometimes. How can I be a good mother and still try to DB on the sly? Shoudl we continue counseling when I know he won't take the step our therapist is clear on - ending the relationship? There is lots of stuff out there on getting over infidelity, but it all assumes that the spouse is contrite, which mine is not. He does love me for what its worth, he is just out of his mind with this "love"/addiction to OW. Any words of advice would be much appreciated.
I cannot say it's nice to meet you because of where we meet. That is our standard greeting (in some form or another). You will find help here and let me start by suggesting a couple threads to read if you have not already. The first one is my own.
Tim's thread (Hit a wall.... is the current one, you will have to search for the first parts) is good too because like mine, his W still sees the OM and lives at home with him and his kids. Frank's thread (Long walk home 1, 2 & 3) may be the most appropriate because his W is continuing an long distance affair. He is also very forthcoming with his posts and offers a ton of information that helped me and many others.
In all of our situations, the OM is still in the picture and we are forced to deal with our WAS living in the same house. It is VERY hard to do. Those who are separated tell us we are lucky but I have my doubts. Our spouses are constant reminders of what is no longer ours, what we miss dearly, our pain. The mantra you will hear a lot is detachment. I think it is something that only comes with time and practice. The time it takes I think varies greatly depending on a lot of factors. Detaching just means that you get to a point where you either naturally (doubtful) or forcefully stop reacting to his stimuli, his actions, his words or his emotions. You realize that you cannot control him. You realize that you CAN control your reaction to him. Detaching does not mean you stop loving him, it means you start loving you more. Detached, you can look at him with pity, anger, hate, love, really anything but it is because YOU feel that way and not because what he just said or did MADE you feel that way. Does that make sense? It may not now because the last thing you probably feel like doing is loving, yourself or otherwise. It will make sense as you ride the ride we call the rollercoaster. After so many times up and down the hills of emotion, you will start to see that there may be another way. You can still love him, be a good mother, and even a good wife if you choose, without playing your role in the crap he's going through. Just realize that what you are feeling and going through is normal and not unique to you. You are not insane. You are not stupid for feeling and doing what you are doing. Also, try to stop thinking about the OW. She is just a part of the problem, but the one that causes you the most pain and emotional reaction. Emotional reaction is not your friend right now. It sounds like you have read one or both of the books. If so, great! They do help, and can be a springboard for what you need to do for yourself. The books specifically talk about your need to turn inward to help yourself become better, happier for YOU, and also to turn outward towards your kid(s) to make sure you not only give them your love, but also fill in some of the gap left from him removing some or all of his expression of love for them. You CAN do this. Some of the women here will encourage you and share with you their thoughts on how they did it. I am just trying to lay the foundation for you and let you know that this is a process that has a beginning. You are there now and we are here to help you along the way. There are some amazing people here, all in the same boat as you, and just knowing you're in such good company may help you feel better. Post a lot, journal here, express your feelings and realize that at least in this way, here, you're not alone.
Sorry to find you here. We all know what you're feeling. The rollercoaster you have found yourself on is painful and confusing.
I agree you should read DB & DR if you haven't.
"but I know this is a lie" Yes. He is what we refer to as an alien. He lies. He lies. He lies. Focus on yourself and your child. You can't make him do anything, he's going to do what he feels like doing. You'll learn a lot from these wonderful supportive people who are all at different stages of the A ride. Good-luck to you.
I can't tell you both how much I appreciate your input and encouragement. But, there is a little part of me that wants to know: Does this ever work? Yes, I have read some of the success stories posted here, but is it like .5% of DB'ers in this situation (non-contrite cheating spouse) that ever revive their marriages? Although I am still in shock and still just barely functioning (I can't eat of sleep to save my life these days. Not at all like me) I'll do anything to save this marriage, but not if my chances of reconciliation are the same as if I gave him an ultimatum and he moved out (which he would - I know it would push him right to her.) Any insight on the question of success? Now, as a second issue, I am in big hot water with H now. Monday morning after catching him the night before, out of my mind with grief, and still believing that I could cope if he told me everything (I knwo that that isn't true) I asked him where the nameless woman lived. He said the midwest, but when I found a number on his phone labeled only "F" I called it saying this is H's wife, who are you? She was flummoxed, I supposed becuase I'd caught her. How foolish. It was a co-worker of his, who's number he had to call and give condolences after her father died. I made an quick excuse and apology and hung up. I did not make any accusations, but I suppose my intent in calling was clear. Well, I didn't tell H becuase I was scared he wouldn't go to counseling with me. HE called yesterday saying "F" had just come to his office to ask about the call. HE played dumb and apologized, and then called me with a fury in his voice I have never known. He actually thinks that my betrayal of trust is the same as his!! Of course, I know what I did was wrong, and I apologized, but he can't hear me. Indeed, he is an alien. It's worth mentioning that his job would be in danger if his bosses found out such is the organization he works for. I had promised not to take that route, but he thinks my errant call was the same thing as calling his bosses. Now, of course, I can't point out that he is the only one who can stamp out any possible rumor by leaving the OW and renewing his vows to me - he wouldn't be able to hear that either. Anyway, the point of bringing up this incident is that until now he was at least a bit real in the evenings- would come home and have dinner in a reasonably normal way, but now he is scowling and short with me every moment. Last night I again apologized and asked if he wasnted to do a "feeelings inventory" (from our MC) to tell me how he was feeling, he said I didn't want to know with the implied meaning that he is leaving and I should give up hope altogether. I tried not to respond at all, and said "you are important to me and to our son" and went to bed. So how do I conduct the evening now? Try to be cheerful like Suzy Creamcheese and ignore his attitude - I sense he would resent my faking it - or just treat him like a roommate to take some of the emotional pressure off - i.e. no pretending like its all right, just joint care of the child and then seperate evenings after S2 is in bed? When I read DB and MR I often feel like I have to go straight to last resort becuase I've got so little to work with - but is that advisable? Anyway - sorry for such a sordid, and perhaps negative post, but I still so new at this and unsure if I have the strength to endure what is ahead of me. Thanks everyone for any input.
there is a little part of me that wants to know: Does this ever work? Yes, I have read some of the success stories posted here, but is it like .5% of DB'ers in this situation (non-contrite cheating spouse) that ever revive their marriages?
I don't know the statistics but I do know, as you hear SO many times, if I were not doing the DB thing (or my variation of it) my W would most likely be living with the OM now or at the least, she would be getting ready to move. Another thing I know, and you may not want to hear this, is that the DB process has helped me in ways I could never have imagined a month ago. Maybe time would have done the same thing, who knows. All I know is that my M is still worth fighting for and this is the best plan of attack I found in about 4 solid days of reading the internet and all the books I could find.
Try to be cheerful like Suzy Creamcheese and ignore his attitude - I sense he would resent my faking it - or just treat him like a roommate to take some of the emotional pressure off - i.e. no pretending like its all right, just joint care of the child and then seperate evenings after S2 is in bed?
I think there is another option. You can "act as if" and ignore your H's emotions/actions/words, but that is really just a stopgap behavior until you learn to detach. Right now, you need to realize that he doesn't want you to "treat" him any way. He is not considering you at all. When you "consider" him, it annoys him, makes him feel guilty, angers him, etc. Wondering what the best way to react to him is a trap in itself. You need to NOT react to him. Harder than it seems, I know. He doesn't want to leave just yet, but you can't stand to be around him without reacting, right? Just realize that you are still in shock. Your emotions are swirling and the pain is intense. You will make mistakes. Don't dwell on them. You can only do your best, which right now is not as good as it will be weeks from now. It DOES get better. Maybe not tomorrow, or the next day, but it will. It's your job now to take care of yourself, your son and get through these early days. It is one of the hardest thing in the world to, I know. It will feel impossible. It will feel like you want to just end the marriage right now. Do not give in to those feelings. They are temporary and they will pass.
I know you are hurting. I know you are looking for answers and some guarantees. You will find some answers along the way but guarantees are hard to come by in these sitches. You are among friends here, and if nothing else, you can take solace in that. You are stronger than you think. We all are.
I think there is another option. You can "act as if" and ignore your H's emotions/actions/words, but that is really just a stopgap behavior until you learn to detach. Right now, you need to realize that he doesn't want you to "treat" him any way. He is not considering you at all. When you "consider" him, it annoys him, makes him feel guilty, angers him, etc. Wondering what the best way to react to him is a trap in itself. You need to NOT react to him. Harder than it seems, I know. He doesn't want to leave just yet, but you can't stand to be around him without reacting, right?
Well, thanks you a million times for your words of encouragement. I suppose you are right - it is the reacting at all that is the problem - and I suppose this is where I make my first DB breakthrough - reacting is the problem with me in the first place. I am always concerned about what others think about what I have said or done. It has the positive effect of making me pretty sensitive and considerate, but often the negative outweighs the positive. I know this crusty old guy, a Mainer living way out in the woods, who always says "it's none of your business what other people think of you." I always chuckle at his unlikely insight, but I suppose now is the time to adopt that as a mantra. I'll work on that today - I'll act as if until I can stop obsessively trying to anticipate his response to everything I might say. I've known the man 12.5 years - my whole adult life- and this is incredibly hard and scary to do. Thanks again.
I'll work on that today - I'll act as if until I can stop obsessively trying to anticipate his response to everything I might say. I've known the man 12.5 years - my whole adult life- and this is incredibly hard and scary to do.
It IS scary as hell, and something we never thought we'd have to learn to do. Trust me, even though I am not there yet, it is well worth it to learn.
Oh lord. Snooping is bad. Bad bad bad. Just having read a days worth of crap e-mail from H to OW today, I am a bit nauseated and can't stop shaking. It is so 11th grade. Sort of a constant discussion of how hard it is to live with me and spend Sundays with me, along with this drivel of LOVE! (they have spent 6 days together total in thier lives.) My H is a very smart man. OUr MC has said to him "you don't know her", but it falls on deaf ears. I mean, how can our spouses take these wild chances? What if she is the type to come boil a rabbit on our stove while we're out? I know lust is powerful, but how does this this alien transformation take place? I pray every moment that he will change back, but I don't have a chance with her in his constant thoughts with 6-8 e-mails a day. And get this - today I had to suffer the humiliation of him buying a new wireless internet card and router so that he can be MORE wireless than he is with his blackberry, and we had to pretend that this is about work and not the affair! Does he really think I am a moron, or am I making this too easy on him? Maybe I should e-mail him love letters 6 times day too? I know that's not very DB, but how can I just watch him slipping closer and closer to her over these weeks and not want to fight fight fight for him?
Two questions for now: 1. Friends and family are largely in the dark, but those that know we are "having trouble" (about 4 people) are starting to wonder what the hell the problem is. I try to divert with talk of the things I am DBing on - compromise, finding happiness within etc., but frankly, it is just not believeable that we would D over this stuff. We are/were a strong couple with good crisis skills. Should I tell anybody? In particular his mother is starting to point fingers of blame at me etc., and I wish she would see the truth - (not that she would/could say anything. We see her at least weekly, adn they are very close. Unfortuanately, she has little to say about marriage, she is divorced like everybody in H's family, and even had two major relationships with married men while raising her two sons - openly - I mean these men taught my H to throw a football and such, just never left thier wives. Add a little Frued to that and this is seeming more and more hopeless. Little Boy version of H thinks leaving the family is the RIGHT thing to do, because it would have made his mother very happy... ) I mean, it is so obvious to me right now. and 2. Should we continue to go to marriage counseling when he is unwilling to take the step of quitting the affair that the MC is set on? Will his insistance undermine my DB'ing? The MC believes in DB for sure, but I don't want to spend 100's of $ while we wait for H to come out of his alien fog.? And finally, #3 (I know, I said 2, but..) I can't help but want to contact her when I read the [censored] she writes. I know she wouldn't stop seeing him for me - she cares not that she is wrecking his family - but I guess I want to hurt her a little. The fact is, I could ruin both of thier careers, but then D would be for sure. And I do know that threatening that is very non DB. I suppose I am just graspong for some control, or some feeling that they recognize I have a teeny tiny little bit of control here. Can I threaten her and DB with him? Okay, I have no chance of sleeping tonight unless I repeat over and over that his words to her have no meaning. IT is his actions with me that count, and that is all. And while he is far from loving or affectionate or anything familiar from our 8.5 y marriage, he is still living here and sleeping in the family bed. If only possession were 9/10ths of the marriage and love law too. Looking forward to your insight more than you all know. Thanks. E PS He wants to take me out for my birthday, I think. When he suggested it, I asked, would you like to? and he said I "deserved it" - but said nothing about wanting to go out with me. Do I take the pity gesture on my birthday and try to make it a memorable event? Pity is hard for me to bear - I have some tiny measure of pride left. Very very tiny.
Yes. It is. Stop doing it. You know everything you need to know right now. Snooping more will only hurt you and become addicting. Don't do it.
Maybe I should e-mail him love letters 6 times day too? I know that's not very DB, but how can I just watch him slipping closer and closer to her over these weeks and not want to fight fight fight for him?
Fighting for him will most likely only push him away. I know it hurts but this is not about you, it's about him. It's like quicksand. The more you fight, the deeper you get.
Should I tell anybody?
My advice, and Michelle's too, is NO, do not tell anybody. It only complicates things, both now and especially if you do reconcile. You may forgive and accept your H back but friends and family that care about YOU may not and it would put additional pressure on you both when you really don't need it.
Should we continue to go to marriage counseling when he is unwilling to take the step of quitting the affair that the MC is set on?
This is tricky. Some people say MC with an affair still ongoing could do more harm than good. Personally, I am trying to get my W to go even though her A continues. I think we need to get some things out in the open and since she won't talk to me one-on-one, maybe an impartial person could get her to open up. I just want to know what needs I have not met for her. I can guess but that's what got us to this point. The danger is that she/he feels pressured, does not want to admit the A or talk about the A/OP with C and it backfires on us. Like I said, tread lightly with this one and if you do go, be prepared to hear some things that will hurt a lot.
I suppose I am just graspong for some control, or some feeling that they recognize I have a teeny tiny little bit of control here. Can I threaten her and DB with him?
This is your major hurdle right now. YOU HAVE NO CONTROL. I don't, Frank doesn't, Vince doesn't, Lisa doesn't, none of us do. You cannot control this. You cannot control the OW, or your H, you can only control you. The sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be. Do not threaten. There are many stories here, actually all of them I have come across addressing contact with the OP or making threats, that end badly when this is done. It may make you feel better (trust me, I think about it daily) but I don't think it gets you closer to your goal of saving the M. If you do this, and your H comes back, do you think it will be because he wants to, loves you again, and is no longer interested in the OW? No, it will be because he wants his job and his social status. So he may come back but full of resentment and probably a renewed drive to push the A underground while proclaiming it over to the world (or just you).
Hope I answered your questions, on LBS to another.
Hi folks - I'm posting for the first time in a long while because I feel like I'm caught up in a spin cylce with myself. A little catch up: H spen most of Feb talking about leaving, I finally discussed it with him becuase he was leaving either way. He went to stay at his Mom's 26Feb. We cried like babies the day he left, saying how we never ever thought we'd be in that situation, how he didn't know if leaving was the right hting to do, and I told him sincerely and lovingly that I wanted him to be happy in life, and I hoped that this separation helped. We went to M counseling 28 feb and he was nice-ish (gave a hug, asked how I was.) 2Mar he came to spend the evening with S2, and I left for the evening, despite his mixed messages "are you going out?" "Aren't you going to stay for dinner at least?" We had discussed how S2 only gets his attention if I leave, but still mixed messages. I went to a movie, and when I came home we talked for about 30 minutes in a "marriage conference" - something our MC suggests twice a week. Now, I am so confused, because at MC 28Feb, he asted like he was moving or shifting somehow - thought the separation was a good thing for his clarity etc., however, I guess I expected that that would be a linear path. I suppose that is my fist mistake. So, we communicated okay, but I always fear I give up too much in these conferences about how I am really doing instead of acting as if I don't mind running the house, tkaing care of the dog, working and raising our child alone. Being a single mom is truly awful to me, and I am surprised at how mad it makes me feel. In fact, I have been struggling with this new found anger - part of me thinks it has been around for a while, appropriately so, and I am just now feeling it, and then part of me says YES! feel it! Move through it! and part of me says oh no, quash that anger before it moves me to something I don't want. I am not used to feeling angry and I just don't know what to do with this. I mean, I see that anger is to be avoided, but I also suspect that anger left unmitigated turns into resentment, and that has been a trap for me my whole life. Anyway, I was doing ok with the separation and DB thing until I found out on Friday morning that he is still in regular phone contact with her in Germany. I didn't mean to find out - I have put a maratorium on snooping, but when I needed to access the voicemail, and he wouldn't give me that password for our home phone voice over IP, I knew something was up. Turns out, he calls her for hours every weekend while he "watches" S2 while I'm at work. This hurts me in a brand new way - I knew they were e-mailing a bunch, and thought he was calling her at twork etc., but to know he calls her from OUR kitchen for hours while my sweet little guy is relegated to watching videos makes my blood boil. He literally calls her minutes after I walk out the door for a 24 hour shift every saturday. Also, I am trying to act cool about his life - essentailly not asking too much that he would want to lie about, but I stepped in something else. He apparently went out with friends Friday night, and when I said I was worried abotu him driving home late after drinking, he said he stayed in town, he would not say where. As I thought nobody knew our sitch, I could only imagine where. Yes, turns out he stayed with a female colleague "on the couch." How on earth should I believe this? I know it doesn't matter in the end, either he wants me or doesn't, but I have been thinking alot about the lengths he is going to hurt me lately, and can't help but wonder if I don't deserve the truth just so I could have the opportunity to decide if I really want him after all. Anyway, its obvious to me in writing this how poor my DB boundaries have been. I really don't expect anybody to read all this drivel - it is devoid of any insight, just an accounting of hurts and actions - but I guess I needed to type it out to take stock of the last few weeks. I've never been much of a journal-er, but I am hoping that using this board that way will give me some resolve or strength at times when I don't know what to do next. (like now.) I guess I feel like we're in a DB neverland - I'm not trying to use any last resort yet, as we are supposedly actively working on M at MC, but he is not making any moves to end his R with OW, so I find myself acting aloof around him as if I were using the LR after all. So, what the heck am I doing? He has said that he thinks I am doing better than he is with this (!) - and I really am trying to GAL (have been running again about 15 miles a wk) One thing I just can't get around since the separation is how we have any chance when he is in contact with me 2-3 hours total per week which includes all parenting dicussions and 1 hour of marriage counseling, so very little actual conversation, and he is talking an e-mailing with her compulsively and daily. I mean, is there a better way to fall out of love with someone than cutting them out of your day to day life? I guess I can't see how this separation can turn out well, and I am so sad and discouraged these days. More later about my particular DB screw ups in conversations with H - going from honesty and wearing my heart on my sleeve to this "acting as if" seems impossible to me at times- but I have to go do something fun with S2 now. So, even though I read this through and feel ashamed of how whiny and useless it is, I am going to post anyway, with the idea from GH and others that writing is its own cure in some strange way...here goes...
