Well,
i posted on another topic for the first time earlier this week,maybe it should have been here.Though my wife still denies denies denies anything physical has ever happened(caught her in an intimate phone conversation,and know they have been together quite frequently)only a fool would believe her..which is what i was trying to do..i think only to make it easier for her to come back..i would tell her i didnt think she has done anything..but she continues to run me through the mud..we are seperated....im living at Mom's...we have 3 D's 6,8,12..she spends every weekend night away from home.She will not say she wants a divorce,says she only wants time to make sure what she wants..its been three months now.We have filed for legal seperation but have not signed on it yet..she wants it not me...i think she only wanted it so as to not feel guilty about committing adultery..
Well today is her Birthday and i can not take it anymore..i told her she had to end the A and prove to me she wanted to work on the marriage or she would never have another chance...
I feel i have lost most of my dignity through this with all the begging,pleading,crying etc. over the past 3 months all while she has been seemingly unaffected and seeing someone else.
And when i really think about it..how can i wait for her A to fizzle and then want me back only because she's tired of that.Actually i have no clue what im doing or what i have done,all i know is im tired of it..im tired of her getting what she wants,i've been reduced to an every other weekend Dad just so she dont have to feel guilty about messing around..knowing "i think"that she will eventually want me to come back.I just feel like its time for her to be held accountable for something and stop living in this fantasy world...either its gonna be like this or it isn't..the choice is yours..
Im willing to forgive and forget all,but feel i cant let it continue knowing its going on,and i cant really feel to bad about that.I've flip-flopped so mant times during this that im sure she doesn't believe me,but im sticking to it this time to see how serious she really is about this,and then i can move on.(i think) Opinions Welcome
dee
Welcome, or not. Sorry to hear about your sitch. My first advice is to read my sitch and Tim's. You can find mine from the beginning by searching for totallymessed up. The first thread is in the Newcomers section and is titled "My WAW is having an affair too!" or something close to that. The second thread is in this forum and is called "Unique situation?...Where we are now" and the third is "Unique situation...part 2". Tim's can be found by searching for his screen name too. Vince, Frank, and PArob also have sitches that relate well to yours. Frank's would be of particular interest because of his insight, but it's a long read.
So, beyond that, have you read the books (DB/DR) and are you trying to practice DBing? You sound like you are having a tough time accepting what she's doing to you, correct? If so, one of the things you hear around here a lot is that your WAW is NOT doing this to YOU. It is not about you. IF you can find a way to accept that, then some of the resentment goes away. She is doing this for HER and while it hurts like hell to have her not give a damn about you, it is the truth. It's not that she doesn't care about you at all, or wants you dead or anything, it's that she has made the decision that she is going to explore what is right for her without regard for your feelings or wishes. At this point, you do have a couple options and probably more but as I see it, you can some variation of either: 1) Issue an ultimatum. Him or me. (see Tim's thread for how this usually goes). If you do this, there is no going back and the pain will not be gone, it will just be different. The reasons for not doing this fall under the heading of "You cannot control other people." It may feel good to do at the time, but it may ultimately backfire. If you choose this, you must be prepared to accept that she may very well say, ok, it's him! If she thinks she is "in love" with this guy, then she has a very good chance of being blind to the reason you are trying to get her to see by issuing the ultimatum.
2) DB, work on yourself and use this time as your friend to work on things you need to do to be stronger within and without your M. This is what most of us here are doing. It is the hard road for sure. It hurts every day, but we believe that at the end of the process, with or without our WAS, we will be in a place to make our lives better. We will have made the personal changes necessary to ensure our own happiness and not rely on the outcome of our W's decision to do that for us. If you want to put it in terms of your R, then you are doing what you need to do to alter your 50% of the issues in the M, for better or worse.
No matter what, are you seeing a counselor? If not, you really should. It helps to have someone you can talk to that should be able to help you sort out your feelings and guide you on a path that will let you take care of you.
I hope your sitch works out for you. In any event, don't let how you feel right now dictate what you do or say because as all of us can attest to, you will feel differently next hour, day, and week. Make goals, and everything you do or say from this point on should contribute to the success of that goal, or it doesn't get said or done. It's one of the principals in the books. Keep posting. Journal. Let us help if we can. Believe you can do it!
You obviously are considering the option of saving your marriage because you are here. Kudos to you. So let's take that and work with it a bit here before we go off issuing an ultimatum.
If you haven't already, pick up Divorce Remedy, Divorce Busting and Men are from Mars/Women are from Venus. I strongly suggest the later book also because it explains the differences between men and women, their needs, their thoughts, their interpretations.
Women have different needs from men, obviously but their reasons for having an A tend to be more emotionally based. Spend some time on the Newcomers thread about recent success stories. Look at the ones written by the men of DB. Most you will find won their wives back through friendship.
Also spend some time reading Franks, Tims and TMUs current threads on here. They are starting to just realize their roles in the demise of their marriages. Each one of them have received excellent advice from other members on here.
You are already separated, currently your W does not find your M attractive or she would not have left the house. Issuing an ultimatum is something that is done when you know that you can live with the final decision. Its a form of control to the WAS. It often pushes them further away instead of attracting them back towards you, which I am gathering is what you want since you are here. But to each their own. We often tend to react to things quickly, living in a FedEx world where we demand immediate fixes to things. Instant gratification. But honey, it took sometime for your marriage to fall apart to the point where your W had an A. Trust me, this is not an overnight fix. It will take a great deal of work on your part to dig deep into your inner being to find your way and find your part in all this. Because at this time, you have no control over what she is doing/feeling and if you dwell on that you will go crazy. You only have control over yourself.
I agree the begging, pleading etc...not attractive, certainly not to your W either, since again at this time she's not looking towards you. This is why you will find that despite the rollercoaster ride you are on, you can control the ups and downs. You go out and GAL, do the 180s, work on yourself. Find yourself again. You prepare yourself for either the return of your W to start over again (the old M is dead) or you are prepared for a new life without your life without continuing the vicious circle. There are issues that you have and your wife has. You have the chance to work on yours and for now your wife has chosen to run from hers.
3mos is nothing in the scheme of things. I know it feels like the end of the world. As run typically from 6mos to 2yrs. Why because it takes at least 6mos before you get to konw someone...and then the real world starts setting in. Initially the A is wonderful, they see the op is their rescuer and slowly but surely the op starts showing their true colors...but if you are consistent in your efforts you can show your W the way back to your heart and home. It's work...hard work. Yes you can always take the easy way out, but that's not why you found DB is it?
Lisa, I will thank you for those words. It's not my sitch but it's nice to hear the basic reasons why I am doing what I am doing laid out do clearly. You are a scholar and a gentlewoman.
Quote: Lisa, I will thank you for those words. It's not my sitch but it's nice to hear the basic reasons why I am doing what I am doing laid out do clearly. You are a scholar and a gentlewoman.
And you my friend, got my first smooch of the day!! Thank you!!! You just made my day!! Honey, I'm just a woman...been there, done that and if anything I can share of my experiences helps someone see something a little differently, hey it's all worth it!!
And cough, cough, regarding the gentlewoman, you've obviously never seen me with my whip!!!
Thank yall for your words, That's the thing..i realize im screwing up everyday but cant seem to help myself.I actually did feel good yesterday after i told her,that is until then she calls me and finds something to talk about to me..it seems every time i take a strong stand she does something to make me hang on?Personally ,and this just may be a man talking himself into it,but deep down i know she doesnt want the marriage right now,but also i feel very strongly that she will want it back some time,even though she continues to say its over,partlt because i was calling her everyday trying to give her the guilt trip about the kids,or trying to convince her of how great things would be now that we have learned so much about each other. One thing that i am very concerned about is the involvement of all of our friends and family,and i am partly to blame for that...but literally everyone has taken my side on this whole thing,and im just afraid that if she ever did want to come back if she would with all the baggage we have layed out these last 3 months. As a woman out there..would you let this affect your decision???? Obviously the ultimatum did nothing,and dont feel to bad about it..she still denies an affair,and sometimes she is very believable and sometimes i think im kidding myself.All i know for sure of plans to have one,and they were atleast talking romantically,in person and on the phone.I feel like she seperated(yes our marriage was not perfect)so she wouldnt feel so guilty about an affair.Maybe i can at least feel good about that fact?She didnt want to do it while we were still together,which gives me hope that if she comes back i can trust her again. Your right about the wanting a quick fix,as my wife would say..you got to have it all or nothing. She wants a good divorce??(is there such a thing)She still has this thought in her head that everything could still be the same.We can be a happily Divorced couple. That just doesnt seem possible to me.I kind of hate her for what shes doing,i feel like shes playing me for all she can get..i cant hardly even talk to my kids every night without wanting to break down and she knows this. Every time i take a stand,i end up feeling bad about leaving things a bad way..kind of messed up huh..i mean it is her putting everyone through hell,and does not seem to feel all that guilty for it,yet i feel bad about being mean to her?????What the hell is wrong with me. Honestly there were times when i thought of ending our marriage way before this,but hearing the words come out of her mouth turned the tables on everything.I see everything so clearly now about how life should be and wanting my kids to grow up in a positive environment,and also realizing how much i really do love my wife. We have both done some terrible things these past 3 months,and wonder if we could ever get things back... I guess i should have left the first time she asked..let her have her affair and keep my mouth shut...But Im a man after all.. I mean i went from "trying"to be mean tonight to calling leaving her a message"she wouldnt answer the phone"to tell her i wanted her to be happy,and if that meant not being with me so be it.And wished her happy b-day. Planning a little trip next weekend with the kids,and thats going to make her real jealous.I ve been trying to go dark for a few days,but like i said she always finds a reason and a way to get in touch with me,so im having trouble with that.And being so far away right now its so hard for her to see any positive changes in me(not that there have been a whole lot yet)if you call laying in bed thinking about evrything everyday,then yeah i guess that is a change from how i was!??@##. Thanks for the comments and advice, keep it coming,because i just seem to keep screwing things up! Dee
i realize im screwing up everyday but cant seem to help myself.
I know that feeling. But what it is, is that dwelling on these matters in a negative way (I know, how can one not?) builds feelings and eventually one may act on those feelings. You need to learn how to turn the faucet off before you overflow and react in an emotional gush to relieve the frustration and anger. It's true here, it's true in road rage, you name it.
it seems every time I take a strong stand she does something to make me hang on?
She's giving you mixed messages? Watch actions then, not the words.
Personally ,and this just may be a man talking himself into it,but deep down I know she doesnt want the marriage right now,but also I feel very strongly that she will want it back some time,even though she continues to say its over
It's true that every WAS that's ever reconciled at one time believed 200% that it was over for good. But we don't know what the future holds for any of us.
partlt because I was calling her everyday trying to give her the guilt trip about the kids,or trying to convince her of how great things would be now that we have learned so much about each other.
Causing continued guilt in someone does not draw them closer to you. Would you personally be drawn to someone who brings up grudges, brings up your "mistakes", or would you be more inclined to find attractive someone who more understanding of your errors?
Reasoning with the WAS also doesn't work well, as their journey is not fueled by reason or logic, but by emotions. Fact is, offering up what you believe to be valid reasons, even if they in truth are valid reasons, becomes something the WAS then can argue against, and trust me, they generally will find the loophole in the argument or throw you a curve, anything, to justify what they're doing. Why assist them in building that wall of theirs by reasoning with them?
Obviously the ultimatum did nothing
Consider issuing ultimatums as being akin to bluffing in poker, perhaps? If your opponent doesn't think they have a winning hand, they're more likely to fold. If they're convinced they can win, they're more likely to stay in. In the emotional, infatuational, euphoric throes of an affair, and after some time of emotionally detaching from the primary relationship, and viewing you as painful, it's highly unlikely that a WAS is going to choose coming back when issued an ultimatum.
she still denies an affair,and sometimes she is very believable and sometimes I think im kidding myself.All I know for sure of plans to have one,and they were atleast talking romantically,in person and on the phone.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, you don't need it to tell you it's a duck.
I feel like she seperated(yes our marriage was not perfect)so she wouldnt feel so guilty about an affair.
More likely is that she wanted to be able to freely conduct her affair. There may be some guilt in there, but perhaps the point here is not to analyze and impute what she may or may not be feeling, unless it's very evident. Otherwise you're merely engaging in guessing games, and then basing what you do correspondingly on a guess. That is a faulty premise for your plan of action. It also will have you flip flopping around as your "analysis", or "guessing" changes around.
She wants a good divorce??(is there such a thing)
Does she mean a "friendly" divorce? You know, not like "War Of The Roses".
She still has this thought in her head that everything could still be the same.We can be a happily Divorced couple.
She may feel that the pressure's off if she's divorced. Without the relationship to contend with, the negativity isn't present as it was. That could be a good thing, but one doesn't need to divorce to end the relationship. You and I know that a divorce merely nulls out the marriage certificate, but the relationship can continue nonetheless, as long as you want it to, until someone dies. She doesn't know that.
I kind of hate her for what shes doing,i feel like shes playing me for all she can get.
Well, these are your feelings, and what helps is not to see it as being "done to you", rather, she's doing it for herself.
i mean it is her putting everyone through hell,and does not seem to feel all that guilty for it,yet I feel bad about being mean to her?????What the hell is wrong with me.
I don't see what's wrong with that. Are you suggesting that it's better for you to feel good about being mean to her? It's better to return tit for tat? Treat others as they treat you is the better golden rule? Isn't there something about you taking the higher road that's of value? It's your conscience speaking to you when you act mean towards her. You can't help how others treat you, except to set boundaries, but you can help how you treat others, even in the face of adversity.
You're dealing with a WAS. WASs act like WASs act. Just like sharks act like sharks. Now, me, personally, when and if I'm ever confronted by a shark, I don't plan on being mean to it, but I'm going to understand not to expect the shark to act like a goldfish.
Honestly there were times when I thought of ending our marriage way before this,but hearing the words come out of her mouth turned the tables on everything.
Just wondering... in the past, when you two had arguments, did you ever get ticked and mention the "divorce" word to her in anger?
I guess I should have left the first time she asked..let her have her affair and keep my mouth shut...But Im a man after all..
What is a "man"? Does the definition of being a man mean only that you throw your wife out like yesterday's garbage when she decides she's going to break the marriage vows? Maybe. Does it mean you're going to brave the rough waters and try to change what's wrong? Could be. Gee, I've done both. Having done both, I think it takes a lot of love and understanding and fortitude to wish and attempt to do the latter.
I mean I went from "trying"to be mean tonight to calling leaving her a message"she wouldnt answer the phone"to tell her I wanted her to be happy,and if that meant not being with me so be it.And wished her happy b-day.
OK, you delivered a message saying you want her nothing but happiness. Now nix it, no more such messages, they need not be repeated, or they will lose their meaning to her. It also is that you are sending mixed messages to her, you know. Your call says "I want you to be happy", but then you're also "trying to be mean to her", "making her feel guilty", "arguing with her about why she should come back", and all that undermines the "wish of happiness" message. It's better that you leave it at you 'want her to be happy" and then disengage from her and go do things for now that make you happy, things that have nothing to do with her, like your upcoming trip.
I ve been trying to go dark for a few days,but like I said she always finds a reason and a way to get in touch with me,so im having trouble with that.
Being "dark", in part, means that you don't initiate contact, not she. If she initiates contact, the rule of thumb for staying dark is "return some calls/emails, not all", "don't return calls/emails immediately", "be vague about your doings".
And being so far away right now its so hard for her to see any positive changes in me(not that there have been a whole lot yet)
Well, you keep working on those changes until they're in your core, like breathing. In time, she'll notice them in whatever contacts you have with her, in ways you can't perceive.
"i realize im screwing up everyday but cant seem to help myself." Oh that is so me. I've been told the principles we mean to use are often counter-intuitive. It's a struggle.
"One thing that i am very concerned about is the involvement of all of our friends and family,and i am partly to blame for that...but literally everyone has taken my side on this whole thing,and im just afraid that if she ever did want to come back if she would with all the baggage we have layed out these last 3 months." Yep. I think a lot about this same thing. Not only our family and friends, but now ow's family and friends are involved. And the neighbors. The WAS has to be concerned about how they appear now to all these people. And walking back makes it look like they were wrong after all. I do think that becomes a large hurdle.
"She wants a good divorce??(is there such a thing)She still has this thought in her head that everything could still be the same.We can be a happily Divorced couple." Oh this is my H's fantasy also. He thinks we can be very good lifelong friends. Maybe a whole lot of time could change my mind, but I doubt it. That's one thing that I can not imagine ever happening. Only in his dreamworld.
Ok, I agree with NYS. The mixed messages need to stop. What you are doing is trying different keys to see which one fits. You try something, guilt lets say, and when it doesn't work, i.e. she comes running back to you, you try another key, like kindness, then ultimatums, etc. Problem is that not only will those keys not work, but there's not even a lock, or at least not one that you are likely to ever recognize or have the key to. She's the only one who can ever open that door and she'll only ever do it because first, she wants to, and second, because she will feel safe doing so. That leads to the family involvement. Much like NYS asked about if you would want to talk to someone who was constantly reminding you of your faults, etc, I ask, would you want to return to a situation where everyone thinks you are a horrible person with no chance of redemption? Many experts say that involving family and friends in these things is natural because of the need to reach out for comfort and understanding, but it is usually a bad idea because of the damage done if ever there is a reconciliation. YOU may come to trust her again, but Mom, or Sis may never be able to do that. My advice is to stop talking about it with as many people as possible. I know I have a few friends I talk about my sitch with but they are removed from my daily life and their opinion of my W does not really matter in the grand scheme of things. What is really important too is that you stop blaming yourself for what you've done and just try to learn and grow from it. So you told your family. Fine, it's done now move on. So you issued an ultimatum. It's done, now move on. You can do it!
Quote: Obviously the ultimatum did nothing,and dont feel to bad about it..she still denies an affair
Oh, and my W still denies an affair too. It semantics. She knows what she's doing...
