You are being a pushover and allowing her to make you feel ashamed of needing touch. You are not an ogre because you need this. It's who you are.
Agree with HP on this one. Your fear of her leaving has led you right back to the same place you were before. No sex and none on the distant nor far horizon. You are going to go in circles if you don't change this dynamic, drastically.
Do the things you need to do for yourself to be happy and take care of your body.
"A man of knowledge uses words with restraint, and a man of understanding is even-tempered. Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue." Proverbs 17:27-28
"THe first thing every man on here gets told is that they should do things for their wives (meeet their needs) and expect NOTHING in return."
I think you are confusing the main point a bit. You do things for your S out of love, not out an expectation of tit for tat. That is what is ideal for both parties, that sex/affection is not something you are "owed" or is a "duty" or you have to "earn it" by doing various other tasks. This does NOT mean that the love is unconditional though, because if the other person is not doing things out of love for you (not in return for your acts, just out of love), then the R is one-sided and either needs to be fixed or terminated. The idea is that two people mutually do things out of love for each other, no scorecards, no checklists, etc.
Now that of course is the ideal state, and people who are in troubled marriage might have to resort to scorekeeping at some level (scheduled sex for example) in order to break through past resentments, build positive habits, etc., so long as the scorekeeping is TEMPORARY. Of course, every couple is different, and some couples might find that they need scheduling or other similar activities to maintain their R even after it is brought back to a healthy level, and that of course is fine for them if it is mutually agreed upon. Of course, all of this is IMHO.
"Either ALL needs must be unconditional or they are all conditional. And from the christian readings I have been doing, they tend to say that we should meet our spouses needs UNCONDTIONALLY."
I think whoever you are reading is abstracting things to a ridiculous degree, and is probably one of those same people who thinks the world is 6000 years old. Do you honestly expect me to swallow the arguement that my W should want to have sex with me NO MATTER WHAT? The Bible doesn't say that, there are conditions on marital sex. You outta read that Marriage Bed website that NOPkins suggested to me. I've found those two have melded practicality with biblical teaches pretty well.
"Now in the example of this case, the women is saying that she can not have sex with a man that does not love her unconditonally. She is telling him that his interaction with her must be UNCONDITIONAL while her interaction with him is CONDITIONAL."
You are right, the case on this thread is wrong-headed. But you shouldn't go generalizing the specifics of this case to every possible marriage situation. That's what I think has been troubling you for so long CeMar (again IMHO). You are trying to swat a fly with a tennis racket. You end up doing damage to other things in the process, and most of the time the fly slips through the holes in the racket strings. OK, not the best analogy, but I have lab in a few minutes and I'm in a hurry.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
"Not necessarily. By all rights I should NOT desire my wife, and yet I do. Some nights I feel BAD about even trying to initiate with her, afterall, why would I want to have sex with someone that does not want it FROM me. And yet why do I keep trying, it because of the freaking testosterone!! I crave physical touch, it can not in any way be turned off. When I first came on this board there was a guy that was trying to find a drug, ANY drug that would kill his desire. I can REALLY sympathize with him."
I COMPLETELY empathize and sympathize with you. The situation you are in is VERY tough, much tougher than mine because my W is already showing signs of wanting to change things. But I state again, you are taking your specific situation and over-generalizing things. I'd be willing to bet there is SOMETHING your wife could do or has done that would turn off sexual attraction, at least temporarily. If she were to then approach you for sex, you might refuse, or at best you would be reluctant, something that is not very good for the sexual encounter to go off well. I can think of several things that my W could do that would turn me off, and I am so hot for her most of the time I can't think of anything else.
Yes, you crave physical touch, most people do. But that does not mean necessarily that every "HD" person craves physical touch from ANY person, every second of the day.
"To not desire sex, that is something I have not experienced in the last 35 years!"
Come on CeMar, give me a break. Are you trying to tell me that you have not in 35 years ever stopped wanting sex, even for a short time? When was the last time you were violently ill (vomiting, diarrhea, killer headache, aches all over, weak, fever, etc.)? Are you trying to tell me you were still craving sex then?
I undestand what you are saying about it being a strong desire MOST of the time, I feel the same way. But you can surely see how external stimuli and situations can influence how much someone wants sex. For some people, those stimuli and situations overwhelm them, and for many of those the stimuli and situations are R-related.
Again, I really empathize with you CeMar. You've got some real sh!t going on in your life. But it is NOT going to EVER improve if you don't start bringing your focus down to your situation and forget about all the over-generalized "snake oil" solutions you are looking at right now.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
There is almost NOTHING a person can do to avoid sexual thoughts. I was in FREAKING church yesterday and it is EVERY where. I was sitting directly behind a couple in their mid 50's with no children with them. It was innocent enough, but they were sitting very close (when they did not HAVE to). All of her side was touching his side. Something simple, and yet worth a million bucks, just simple touching. And I am sitting their thinking that that will NEVER be me and my wife. She does NOT like touching like this, it invades her personal space, it is uncomfortable, it is hot, someone might see. And this was not the ONLY one like this, their were several older couples like this. And then there are the older couples that have space, LOTs of space betweeen them. THAT is going to be me. It's almost like some people are wired backwards and physical touch makes them UNCOMFORTABLE.
What a name to choose. First of all, you'll feel a bit better about your situation if you can change your name to something more positive or reflective of who you truly are as a person. If the fact that you're not getting any is who you are, then I can clearly see your wife's perspective.
It's quite obvious to me that she's had a trigger of something very traumatic from her past. I'm willing to bet it's definitely sexual abuse. She is feeling completely bewildered, broken and numb. She is afraid of your reaction to her "victimized" self... the one you had no idea existed, but the one who desperately needs to heal.
I'm glad you were able to convince her to stay home. I'm wondering why her first choice was out of State?? Someone already asked you that. Could you please shed some light on that for us?
There is hope for your marriage. There is hope that she will find the courage to dust herself off and grow to trust you again, even work towards being sexual again. It's not easy for either spouse. You will have to be extremely patient, self-soothing, confident, loving and compassionate. But, there is never any guarantee. How strong do you feel? How much do you love her?
For those of you telling MrScared that his wife is being completely selfish, and dillusional, what a shame! Did you get married to have a sex partner for the rest of your lives or to spend the rest of your life with your best friend, in good times and bad, sickness and health?
By the way, her question is very understandable to me. She's not asking you in the literal sense. She's asking if she has any value to you other than a sex partner. She's crying out to you for love, yes, the unconditional kind.
"There is almost NOTHING a person can do to avoid sexual thoughts."
Agreed, but that is a different point. There are times when you don't think of sex, and don't want sex. The problem with your W is for whatever reason she is like that all the time, at least around you (hate to say that but it is a possibility, one that I struggle with too).
"I was in FREAKING church yesterday and it is EVERY where."
You'll get no argument from me. Although on average you will see less provacative dress and activity inside a church than outside, it is still there. Church is one of the best places to meet single people (assuming you are not an atheist).
"I was sitting directly behind a couple in their mid 50's with no children with them. It was innocent enough, but they were sitting very close (when they did not HAVE to). All of her side was touching his side. Something simple, and yet worth a million bucks, just simple touching."
Very sweet scene. I hope I can have the kind of R to where my W feels comfortable enough to sidle up to me in church when we get to old age. Yes that sort of closeness is worth a million buck, actually it is priceless.
"And I am sitting their thinking that that will NEVER be me and my wife. She does NOT like touching like this, it invades her personal space, it is uncomfortable, it is hot, someone might see."
I can tell you one thing for ABSOLUTE sure CeMar. If you say it will NEVER happen with your wife, it NEVER will. The two of you are in a position right now that it is going to take some positive work and positive thinking by both of you to get to a better place. If YOU, the one who wants change is convinced of ultimate failure, how can it possibly get better.
I will tell you that my W is a lot like you describe. She thinks of a million excuses why we can't be affectionate, all mostly dealing with her level of comfort. But we are working past that now, primarily because I have set a boundary and am sticking with it. You need to find your boundary CeMar, and it needs to have some teeth to it.
"And then there are the older couples that have space, LOTs of space betweeen them. THAT is going to be me."
Don't give up CeMar, or you will turn that into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
"It's almost like some people are wired backwards and physical touch makes them UNCOMFORTABLE."
Yeah, there are some people like that, some for physical reasons, some for mental reasons. And for some, it is only for certain people. Most women wouldn't shy away in disgust if Brad Pitt (or Sean Connery, pick your poison) came up and put an arm around them. They might shy away, but for a different reason, but not in disgust. On the other hand, most of us would at least involuntarily shy away if a homeless person smelling of fesces, urine, and old wine came up even hinted that they wanted to touch our shirt sleeve with the tip of their finger. For some people, their S is like that homeless person. The problems in the R and within themselves create an involuntary disgust which makes touch uncomfortable. So the question is, what can you do to clean away the grime and filth in yourself (maybe) and your R (for sure). It may not make you look like Brad Pitt, but it may give your W the incentive to do some more work on her end to clean the R up even more. It may not.
I'm starting to ramble. Enough
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
QUOTE ____________________________________________________________ Did you get married to have a sex partner for the rest of your lives or to spend the rest of your life with your best friend, in good times and bad, sickness and health? ____________________________________________________________
I think the answer would be a universal yes to both of these questions. Why would it have to be one or the other? If I were to get married, I would want a lifelong lover (sex partner) and best friend. That is usually the presumption under most marriages.
QUOTE ____________________________________________________________ By the way, her question is very understandable to me. She's not asking you in the literal sense. She's asking if she has any value to you other than a sex partner. ____________________________________________________________
Or she is just making her HD husband try to feel bad for having needs for sex and closeness that she is unwilling to meet. The original post indicated that there have not been any real issues in the marriage except for the mismatch in libido. It sounds like he hasn't exactly been getting much sex in the last (?) years, so does she really think he would still be around now if he ONLY wanted her for sex?
If the HD spouse says nothing about his/her SSM, then nothing will change. However, when the HD spouse speaks up about it and they keep on the issue after nothing has changed, suddenly all they care about is sex.
Quote: Something somewhere must have happened that is really bad and she knows that if she goes to any counseling that this could resurface and that would just be too painful for her to deal with. It is far easier for her to repress and maintain than to deal with whatever it is. So the prospect of going to any kind of counseling is immediately nixed
That was my first reaction as soon as I read your post. My mum had abuse issues (not sexual but physical) in her childhood and the thought of a psychologist of any kind gave her the heebie-jeebies, the same with an old BF who had some serious abuse issues.
The reason she will run a mile from MC is because she fears facing her issues, she fears dragging up the past pain because it is too huge for her and because she has done such a great job of burying it for all these years. The problem is that the issues WERE huge when she was a child, but just like a child will cry when they graze their knee and an adult will just say ouch an adult can handle emotional pain better too. The scariness of it all has been blown out of all proportion by the years of repression, if she faces it through counselling it will be painful -yes but it won't be something she truly can't handle.
Like others have said you need to set some boundaries for her. You need to let her know you love her and you are willing to deal with where she is right now, that you are willing to deal with any other issues she has with the R that you could improve, but that you MUST see willingness on her part to make progress.
To go back to your original question, if my H was physically disabled in some way and couldn't have sex of course I would forgive him for this, but if it were a disablement that had a potential cure and he was unwilling to seek that cure then I would have a problem with that.
take care
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
