My wife and I have been struggling for years, our only real issue being that of our mismatched libido. I am very HD, she is VERY LD and it has caused some MAJOR problems. Last night, she finally gave me an ultimatem: She wanted me to ask myself this question: If we could never have sex again, would I still love her and want to be her husband? If I answered yes, she MIGHT stay, if I answered no, she would leave and move the kids out of state. She asked me to think of it as if she had been in a major accident and was now paralyzed from the neck down. Would I still love her? Would I still want to be married? According to her, her self image is so low that it is as if she were actually paralized.. she physically CANNOT touch or be touched in anyway. I said the question was totally irrelevant as she is still very capable of allowing intimacy if she wanted to. That response was what she has now taken as her answer... She thinks I am only interested in her if she provides sex, my love is conditional. I just think this is a lousy way of thinking. But regardless, while I thought she was going to work this morning, she has apparatnly left with the kids. She called and left a voice mail on my work phone saying "goodbye"
So my question for the group: What if you could never have sex again for some reason. Would it change the way you felt about your spouse? And is it fair to impose that upon someone who you claim to love?
Now off to go deal with my tailspinning universe...
I guess I'd say, 'yes, of course I would always love you, even if we could never have sex again. Having said that, however, we need to decide with whom it is I shall be having sex. I respect the fact that you no longer want to have sex with me. But that does not mean I am willing to give up the sexual side of me. So, who am I supposed to have sex with? What are the ground rules we will establish?'
If she tells you that she no longer is willing to have sex, AND you are not permitted to go outside the marriage to fulfill this need of yours... you have got yourself one major, major problem.... and I'd be heading into MC pronto.
Problem is... I have tried the MC approach. She flat out refuses to go. She has said "the day I go to a marriage counselor is the day our marriage is over." I don't know what it is.. we have had many issues and through all of it she will talk to no one, not family, not friends, not pastors, she is going compltely off of her own internal knowledge. I on the other hand AM going to a counselor as I try to sort out what all is going on. I just wishe she'd join me.
I am always perplexed by people like your W. I truly think it is even more selfish to deny sex/intimacy to your partner than for the HD S to go outside the M for sexual fulfillment (if the S is unwilling to make change of course). Intimacy/sex/love is a wonderful part of life that should be experienced within a M. YOU are not the one with the problem, SHE is. Unfortunately, her unwillingness to even discuss the issue puts you in an awkward position for sure. I'm sure you love your W but if she is never going to have sex with you, can YOU live with that decision? The fact that she says she will leave if you will not let her get away with this selfish decision is actually the right thing for her to do. But why does she need to take the kids out of state? Just to be difficult?
Well, first I will say D@mn man, this really is hard. I feel for you.
I truly do not understand your W's response to this whole situation. Being paralyzed from the neck down is light years away from a person being able to be intimate and CHOOSING not to. Granted, there are a lot of reasons why some one would not want to be touched, from personal problems, to R problems, to utter disgust for the other person. But somewhere in there is a choice (unless of course there is some psychosis, but it doesn't sound like that is going on here). IMHO people enter a marriage with an expectation of intimacy and affection. That is one of the major reasons for getting married. For someone to completely deny intimacy and affection over a long period of time, and without taking steps to try to solve the situation, is breaking their marriage vows as surely as someone going out and having an adulterous affair.
Of course, this may not completely apply to your situation. There may be many factors influencing your W's decision to take this hard stance. Maybe if you can elaborate more on the history of your marriage, the people here can help you find a specific solution or at least things to try.
"thinks I am only interested in her if she provides sex, my love is conditional."
Your W has apparently fallen into the "true love" frame of mind trap. That love is pure, never changing, always 100%, unconditional, etc. etc. etc. Of course love is conditional. If someone you love starts treating you in a really crappy way for a long enough period of time, most people would stop loving that person. In fact, by treating you in such a crappy way, the other person is in effect saying that they don't love you.
If sex is important to you, and your S loves you, then they should be willing to make an effort to accomodate your needs, at some level that you can compromise on. Again though, there are a myraid things that can get in the way of this, as I am finding out in my own situation. Your W may be doing this as an avoidance of her own sexual insecurities. You may be doing things that are so repulsive to her that she can't imagine sex with you(not trying to imply anything about you, that is just a possibility). And on and on and on and on ...
So I guess the answer to your question is, it depends. IF the W absolutely said no more sex for the rest of our marriage no matter what, I don't care what you do, then my marriage would be shortened considerably. It would be a "deal breaker" for me.
"Now off to go deal with my tailspinning universe..."
Hey, be well, or as well as you can. I know that tailspinning feeling. Don't let it get to much control over you, or the tailspinning takes over your life.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
If my H was no longer capable to not have sex do to some horrific accident would I still love him yes would I stay in the relationship yes. If my H to not have sex with me would I still love him maybe would I choose to stay in the relationship no. That answer is not based on the sex per say it is based on the fact he out of choice and selfishness did not care about my needs. There is a huge difference between cannot and will not.
And in my opinion the maybe she would stay means she had already decided to leave. And was just trying to put all the responsiblity/blame for her actions/decision on you.
Quote: Problem is... I have tried the MC approach. She flat out refuses to go. She has said "the day I go to a marriage counselor is the day our marriage is over."
Keep after this, although not in a nagging way, just keep up the suggestion. I felt the same way as your wife regarding MC. I'm now on my second. I would also seriously consider seeing a lawyer if she is suggesting that she will take the kids out of state.
Gone the carvings and those who left their mark. Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
I have been going back and forth on weather love must be conditional or unconditional. I have just read a christian article on marriage and I am leaning towards UNCONDITIONAL. But here is the catching point, she wants HER needs met unconditionally but not HIS. She must also meet his uncondtionally, which means she must desire sex with him UNCONDTIONALLY.
She is an incredibly selfish person, do you really want to spend the rest of your life with a person that COMPLETELY dismisses your needs?
I have to agree with you, on the fact that her question (in my estimation) is truly not applicable to your situation. She obviously has issues if she says she's not willing to touch or be touched. Those issues can be dealt with if she's willing to deal with them, if she's not willing to...then it's unfair for her to expect you to accept an ultimatum like the one she put forth. That puts her in complete control of your R and it's not right.
Our MC once asked us the same question, my response was very similar to yours. If my H were paralyzed (or whatever) and had a legitimate physical reason for not being able to fulfill my needs that's one thing, then I know he's not withholding from me....there is an actual physical limitation. However, I know with my LDH it's a matter of him not stepping up and dealing with issues that need to be dealt with and using those as an excuse not to becoming intimately close with me....THAT is a choice of his in my view....I view your W's statement to be the same. She's making a choice not to deal with things that would allow her to get intimately close with you.
Also, how would she respond if you said something like this (I've said it to my H)...if you aren't willing to meet that need for me, then you'd better get ok with someone else taking care of it. I suspect she wouldn't like that either, for her D is easier than dealing with her issues.
So for me, would I be willing to live in a M where I have a perfectly able bodied spouse who could be intimate with me if he chose to be...but won't? NO. Sure I may love my H...but I also know I have needs that need to be met, when they aren't met it hurts, it affects my self esteem etc....that's not a pain I'm willing to live with indefinitely.
"I have been going back and forth on weather love must be conditional or unconditional. I have just read a christian article on marriage and I am leaning towards UNCONDITIONAL."
Then you said this:
"She must also meet his uncondtionally, which means she must desire sex with him UNCONDTIONALLY."
By saying something must happen in order for love to be there, you are setting a condition. The natural logical counterpoint is that if "she" does not desire sex unconditionally (a rather bizzare concept by the way), then he is free not to love her unconditionally.
Of course, there are several other logical fallacies in there, but its too early in the morning to think about them.
As far as someone desiring sex unconditionally, can you see how absolutely crazy that is? For one, that would be completely dishonest, we all wax and wane in our desires from time to time. Two, it would be a license for the people to not put ANY effort into the R, i.e. "you have to want me, so I don't need to do anything to entice you." For one, the concept that someone MUST want something is silly. For two, that would be an awful relationship. God, my head is spinning with all the logical and emotional fallacies that I could come up with for that. I'd better stop.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I would also seriously consider seeing a lawyer if she is suggesting that she will take the kids out of state.