There are answers... but there is no right or wrong to them. You spill out gems, and I'm just thinking is all.... it has been interesting to watch you respond to me. You've been thoughtful, patient, honest... we revist your xH and his problem and you scatter like a buck shot.... this isn't bad. It's telling.... and I"m thinking, so give me some time...
Quote: If you asked him (and I have) he'd say "it's because I can't afford to move out" or "it's for our son" or "it's more comfortable for me to live in the house" or "Landica, if you think that I love you, you're just fooling yourself. I came back because I felt guilty"
L, he doesn't WANT to love you (whether he does or not is something else). I don't know what the details are of his particular abuse sitch, but I can tell you, there is lots and lots and lots of self-loathing going on with him... you being the beautiful, smart, intelligent, sexual woman you are is a constant reminder to him of all that he ISN'T. You pushing him on the issue makes it worse... and that's why he lashes out at you.
Yet... he offers you an olive branch a day or two later. I know that M.O. very well, indeed.
So, do you want to be loved, or do you want to be loved by him?
Did you say that he was at one time an alcoholic? Or have you been married more than once?
Kick ass in your new job... let it feed your PMA. You're going to be fine. Don't kick him to the curb yet.
Go downstairs, unload the dishwasher, straighten up, maybe read a little or go on the internet.
Take a shower. Get dressed. X tells me to get him a coffee at Starbucks. Move X's car, which is usually blocking mine (we have tandem -- is that the right word -- parking)
Go to the Starbucks, usually with S14. Have lots of fun with S14, teasing each other or talking about more serious topics. Order my latte and X's coffee. Chat and laugh with S14.
When X shows up, he goes online and responds to his emails or reads. If I say anything to him, he says, "Landica, I'm working. Get me another coffee."
Drink my latte. Say, "Well, I guess I should be going." X says "Can't you just wait until time x, so you can drive S14 to school?" (now you have to remember that I *have* to be to work by 8:30, while X has no set schedule) Sometimes I say yes. Sometimes I just go to work.
Work. (which is usually --though not always -- stimulating, fun, exciting, challenging)
Get a call/email from X asking if I can pick up S14 after school. Sometimes I say yes, sometimes I say no.
Get home. Say hello to X, who is lying on the couch sleeping, on the computer or reading and doesn't respond.
Clean up a little. Sometimes go to the gym with a friend or grocery shopping. Cook dinner (usually just for me and S14, because X "had a late lunch" or "isn't hungry") Eat dinner with S14 (who usually gives me a big hug and says "Mom, I love you. Thanks for making dinner.) Have fun conversations with S14 about his day, his friends, my day, my friends. Clean up the kitchen.
Sometimes watch a little tv with S14, making fun of the programs and laughing. Go to bed in the guest bedroom, telling S14 not to stay up too late.
Meanwhile, X falls asleep on the couch downstairs or in the master bedroom or goes out to Starbucks.
Fall asleep.
Wash, rinse, and repeat.
What is wrong with this picture? What is wrong with me that I live this way?
Quote: Did you say that he was at one time an alcoholic? Or have you been married more than once?
Yeah, he used to be an alcoholic. And a bulemic. And a compulsive spender (which is why we're in huge amounts of debt that I'm slowly paying off). And a porn addict (maybe he still is, for all I know).
Quote: Kick ass in your new job... let it feed your PMA. You're going to be fine. Don't kick him to the curb yet.
Now *this* I can do. I can already tell it's going to be fun.
Quote: But I don't see what I can do --except tell him to leave -- if I can't accept him the way he is. He's got very clear boundaries.
Have you ever stated any of your own boundaries to him? How did he react?
Also, have you given any thought to what will happen in the event that you CAN'T accept his boundaries?
I'm not saying you need to kick him to the curb, but having a plan, several different plans even, is always a better option that blindly living out 'whatever happens'.
Fwiw, my H is somewhat antisocial as well. It used to really bother me, but I no longer worry about it. If he wants to spend his time holed up and missing out on life, let him. It is NO reflection on you.
You are so much like me you really are - LOL. And it is all about our Dads, we didn't get that fix of unconditional love from a male early on that would have let us know what it felt like. The yearning for that leads us to supplicate ourselves and be confused about boundaries. I was a total Daddy's girl as a kid and the apple of his eye, it all suddenly changed in adolescence and what I now finally realise is that HE couldn't handle me turning into a woman. He couldn't handle the stength of his feelings - some would have been sexual - so he distanced himself in a very aggressive way. I felt the loss so keenly I can remember falling on my knees in my room after an argument with him, sobbing and saying to myself *my Dad is dead*
To return to your sitch: H has boundaries about what he is NOT willing to do for you. But it is obviously more comfortable, more convenient etc for him to live under your roof.
OK he does not have a romantic R with you - he is a roommate. Start looking at it that way. It is clear in my opinion that that is what he wants. There are an awful lot of men who would just disintegrate and become winos without a woman around to attend to the practical stuff so he has sneaked back under your roof to get his dinners cooked and his washing done - or whatever other choresome aspects of everyday life that men appear to think women were put on this earth to perform. We *stupidly* go along with it because we want a relationship - a connection with an adult human being - a life partner - a sex partner - someone to hang out with etc etc.
OK now imagine H was gone and you needed a roomie. What would be your ground rules for good behaviour on the part of the roomie? These are your boundaries. If you still want him around and don't want to kick him out I mean. You like having another adult presence in the house and you like enough about him to regard him as a friend. He also happens to be the father of your son but that is kind of by the by. Can I ask you a personal question - this is the SSM board after all - do you and H share the same bed? Because if you do I think it is time to kick him out of your bed and lay down the room-mate ground rules. Everything he is doing and saying indicates that that is the way he wants it to be. Your R is about co-parenting, sharing bills and living under the same roof. It is not about being a couple.
Quote: But I *can't* require anything from X. Or at least I can't see how I can. He does what he wants. Example: I had a friend and her kids over for dinner tonight. X refused to come down and eat with us, saying he felt "sick." ... "That's just the way I am, Landica. It's not my problem that you're not happy with it. If you don't like it, leave."
This exactly indicates what I mean, Landica thinks of L&H as a couple, H does not. If he thought of himself as part of a couple he would have made the effort, if you thought of him as a roommate it would not bother you that he did not eat with you.
You have to get happy with the fact that he does not see himself as part of a couple and be his roommate or accept the fact that you cannot handle the confusion of living under the same roof with a man you were once in a R with and show him the door.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Okay, you say you've been reading my Stupid Question Thread. Let's move the focus off you for a moment and turn to your xH, and HIS possible POV.
Let's imagine for a moment that H has leprosy. It is, of course, an ailment of the skin and nerve endings, where open sores permeate the body. With these sores being so visible and obvious, would you ever just walk up to him and grab him in a big ole bear hug (provided that you had a rock solid guarantee from God Himself that you would NOT catch the ailment?)
No.
Even with the guarantee from God, you would not do this, for to do so would cause him untold pain and agony. You understand the cause of the disease is not your fault, you understand that there is nothing you can do to cure the disease, and out of empathy and love for him, you wouldn't hug him either, for you would not want to cause him additional pain.
From your earlier posts, I gather that his childhood was quite traumatic. So, while H may not have leprosy on the outside, he does on the inside. His emotional wounds are open and gaping. When you 'move in' and attempt to be intimate with him... he cringes. Not because of YOU, but because of the wounds that have never healed. He's going to bark at you, yes... like he would at anyone who got too close... because what you are doing HURTS him. His emotional distance/unavailability creates a nice, dull buffer for him.
Unfortunately for him... not only does he shut out painful feelings, he also shuts out happy feelings. He lives in a world of a dull, thudding constant, somewhere in limbo, never really happy, never really sad (until you get too close). That grey, dull world is worse than hell. (I'm speaking from experience).
That is not to say he is lacking in all emotion, in all empathy, in all dignity or morals. He has integrity, he has intelligence, there are human fundamental emotions that his brain recognizes and acts upon... but only if he feels safe in acting upon them.
There is a part of him that is screaming at him to join the land of the living. If he beat his bulemia and his alcoholism, that's big. What I am gathering from you is he has replaced those soothing balms with other things, though, and he just can't help himself. We all want to feel good, and he will find what he considers to be the pathe of least resistance. Porn. Compulsive spending.
Yes, there is a way out, there is a way to join the land of the living... but I have to tell you, it is dam near impossible. The amount of pain you must inflict upon yourself, the paths through the deepest pits of hell in which you must travel, to come out on the other side and heal... that is a daunting task for anyone. Most especially men. That is a generalization, I know... but many men have a very difficult time in expressing painful emotion (and please, someone correct me if I am wrong)... the shame, the embarassment, the self-blame... anyway, I realize I am sounding a bit dramatic here... but I believe what you are asking of your H is much akin to asking a leper if he would mind too terribly you pouring salt into his open wounds.
And this, my friend, YOU are taking personally.
I am telling you, here and now, there is no way on this planet that you can fix this for him. No way. And even if this man loved you more than life itself, I think he is still going to have one hell of a time stepping up to this plate. Alcoholism and Bulemia are a walk in the park compared to uprooting and erradicating the cause of those addictions.
You have not gone into great detail about his alcoholism or his bulemia, or how he came to be back in your life with the Steve and Sarah episode. But I know you played a role in all of them. To me, that says that he loves you to the fullest extent that he is able.
This man is emtionally crippled. For you to ask him to be intimate with you is like asking a man in the late stages of polio to get up and run a marathon.
He will get as close to you as he is able. He illustrates this by being 'kind' to you after his verbal abuse bouts. He is like a man who holds you at arms length with one hand, yet beckons you closer with the other. And you wonder why you are sad and confused.
I don't mean to say this to depress you... but Lord knows, I probably am. I am sorry. My whole point in going this route is to impress upon you how critical it is to your own mental health not to personalize HIS problem. For his inability to fix it, what you consider to be his unwillingness to confront his issues, has NOTHING to do with you or your lovability. For truly, he loves you in spite of himself. That's why he feels guilty.
Now, of course, this is really all a matter of self-experienced, educated speculation on my part. Only you can tell me if anything I am saying might ring true. You know him far better than ANYONE on the planet. Believe me. And I'm sure you think you don't know much.
Given the history with your father, and how he is... you found the perfect man with H to 'heal' you. I know you want him to love you, but I am here to tell you, you are NOT going to get blood from a turnip. It ain't going to happen.
Until you can step back and see this for yourself, you are going to be caught in that vortex of confusion and sadness. When you can do this, when you can accept this, even though it makes you sad, only then can you make a decision of what to do with the rest of your life. That doesn't mean you move on. That doesn't mean that you don't. But until you can let him off 'the hook,' (and in so doing, let go of your father's inabilities as well), you really can't make a decision with YOUR best interests at heart.
Okay, this is enough for now. I can well imagine this is going to be a severe blow to your mid-section if I've hit close to the mark. If I haven't, tell me. If I have, let me know what you think, when you are ready.
Corri's right. It's not you. You are smashingly normal. You've just allowed yourself to become a martyr to H's user. He has made you his indentured servant. You both are reaching critical mass (if not already definitely there). Like we said, I suggest you read Corri's "Stupid Question" solution thread; ie, cage-rattling.
And, like she said, it's him. Don't kick him to the curb just yet because he knows not what he is doing. Fogville. Depression. Does he stay in same PJs/grungy clothes all day? He needs to have a schedule, even if that means getting up with you, showering, and changing into nice clothes before he hits his computer. He needs routine.
I know of what I speak. Depression is sucking his life away....turning him into couch-like furniture.
He is frustrated with himself subconsciously and projecting that anger onto you. Do NOT rub GALing in his face; Keep GALing but do it subtly. Why? Because the more put together you appear...so well-functioning...the angrier it makes him and the further he wants to push you away and wallow.
I see a lot of stuff here as what's going on with Fran. Both Ms are in the "fog" Corri talks about in her thread. Except both of your Ms are stuck more in a blinding blizzard of self-pity/loathing. The final option big bang A-bomb is looming close at hand....
Question. Does H know your x is trying to reconnect with you? If you say, "yes, but he would just tell me to 'go ahead I don't care what you do'" then it just proves he's completely lost in the fog. This is Chrome/GEL wake up call territory, which I DO NOT recommend, of course, but somehow he needs to know he's driving you away.
Both your H and Haphazards' need, really need the both of you...no, doesn't seem like it. But they are extremely needy. They just wrongly think they are in control of a comfort zone situation where they are convinced they have you locked in so tight that niether of you will do anything to shake up the status quo.
They're in deep ruts. And what is a rut after all?
A Grave with the Ends Kicked Out.
Now, I like illustrations. Isn't it obvious? LOL. So here's another one. I think you will find it very enlightening, counselor.
Go to the Starbucks, usually with S14. Have lots of fun with S14, teasing each other or talking about more serious topics. Order my latte and X's coffee. Chat and laugh with S14.
When X shows up, he goes online and responds to his emails or reads. If I say anything to him, he says, "Landica, I'm working. Get me another coffee."
Drink my latte. Say, "Well, I guess I should be going..."
...Get home. Say hello to X, who is lying on the couch sleeping, on the computer or reading and doesn't respond...
...Clean up a little. Sometimes go to the gym with a friend or grocery shopping. Cook dinner (usually just for me and S14, because X "had a late lunch" or "isn't hungry") Eat dinner with S14 (who usually gives me a big hug and says "Mom, I love you. Thanks for making dinner.) Have fun conversations with S14 about his day, his friends, my day, my friends. Clean up the kitchen.
Sometimes watch a little tv with S14, making fun of the programs and laughing. Go to bed in the guest bedroom, telling S14 not to stay up too late.
Meanwhile, X falls asleep on the couch downstairs or in the master bedroom or goes out to Starbucks.
Fall asleep.
Wash, rinse, and repeat.
What is wrong with this picture? What is wrong with me that I live this way?
The original. Got it? Now, I'm going to do some creative cutting and pasting. You tell me what you think. See you at the end of the following text...
Go to the Starbucks, usually with X. Have lots of fun with X, teasing each other or talking about more serious topics. Order my latte and S14's hot chocolate. Chat and laugh with X.
When S14 shows up, he goes online and plays his video games or reads. If I say anything to him, he says, "Hi, mom, I'm just playing online. Thanks for the hot chocolate."
Drink my latte. Say, "Well, I guess I should be going..."
...Get home. Say hello to S14, who is lying on the couch sleeping, on the computer or reading and doesn't respond...
...Clean up a little. Sometimes go to the gym with a friend or grocery shopping. Cook dinner (usually just for me and X, because S14 "had a late lunch" or "isn't hungry") Eat dinner with X (who usually gives me a big hug and says "landica, I love you. Thanks for making dinner.) Have fun conversations with X about his day, his friends, my day, my friends. Clean up the kitchen.
Sometimes watch a little tv with X, making fun of the programs and laughing. Go to bed in the master bedroom with X, telling S14 not to stay up too late...
Wash, rinse, and repeat.
What is right with this picture? What is right with me that I live this way?
You live this way because S14 has become your X, while your enabling X's behaviors have transformed him into an unruly, undisciplined bratty 14 year old boy. That's how he's acting.
The question is. What would you do if your S14 acted in all of these very same ways as your X? See? And what do you do to immature snotty little brats who push your authority/boundaries as a strong mother?
I rest my case. Your witness.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Quote: You live this way because S14 has become your X, while your enabling X's behaviors have transformed him into an unruly, undisciplined bratty 14 year old boy. That's how he's acting.
I'll respond a little more to others later, but this really hits home. S14 *has* become the more adult of the two and is (mostly) sweet and affectionate and responsible and a great companion, while X acts pretty much like a surly adolescent....
Imagine how life is going to be in a few years, when S14 leaves home....
I think you've got it exactly right. The leprosy analogy is apt. And this hit home too:
Quote: This man is emtionally crippled. For you to ask him to be intimate with you is like asking a man in the late stages of polio to get up and run a marathon.
He will get as close to you as he is able. He illustrates this by being 'kind' to you after his verbal abuse bouts. He is like a man who holds you at arms length with one hand, yet beckons you closer with the other. And you wonder why you are sad and confused.
X often says "I'm doing the best that I can." And I think he is. But you're absolutely right, he is wounded, crippled, broken -- whatever word you want to use -- and he quite literally can't be the way I want him to be.
And, I see, as I just said in response to Stigmata's post, that, to a large extent, I'm able to get some portion of the attention, love and affirmation that I want from S14.
Okay. I can accept (however painful it might be) that this is just the way that X is. And that he has no plans to change.
Quote: Okay. I can accept (however painful it might be) that this is just the way that X is. And that he has no plans to change.
Let it sink in for awhile. It hurts, I know. You'll find an odd sort of peace inside yourself when you get comfortable with the acceptance. You'll see yourself and him through a whole new set of eyes.
