This is step one in learning how to trust yourself. How you feel when you make a decision. I'm sure you do it all the time in your job... and feel quite confident when you do make decisions.
Your initial impulse was to tell the guy, "thanks, but no thanks." You felt good about yourself because you know you don't want to just be a booty call.
So. We know a few things from this.
- you respect yourself more than you give yourself credit for.
- you know one thing from a potential R that you DON'T want.
- you had no problem telling this guy thanks but no thanks. You CAN, in fact, stand up for yourself.
See? You did it. Now practice more and more, with all kinds of things that happen to you on a daily basis, from that area of "KNOWING" that is inside you. Become more familiar with it by deciding what YOU DO want... for yourself, no one else. By saying to yourself... "Okay, I AM worthy of life, I AM the driver of my own bus of life (not a victim of it)... so what does that mean, specifically? Who is this person? What does she want from life? What does that look like?
Ask yourself what makes YOU happy? What do you do, in absence of anyone else, where you can actually lose track of time? What do you do (all by yourself, with no one else) that makes YOU feel good? I'm sure you know one or two things, but I guarantee you, there are more, and you really have to think about them.
Get to know yourself. Get to know all the reasons why you are a great person, why you are your own best friend.... and you can't do this and be a victim of life at the same time. Really. Every time you come up with something, the victim in you is going to criticize it, tear it apart, put it down, tell you why it won't work... so you'll know when it's happening. The 'vicitim' in you does not go quietly into that dark night... so be prepared.
I'm going to comment on an earlier post of yours here in a bit...
Interesting. I associate (not having yet gotten the book Haphazard recommended) the concept of narcissism with a kind of grandiose thinking, with egoism, with thinking you're somehow superior to others. But I suppose it could work the other way around too....
YEAH!! EXCELLENT!! No, I do not think you are a narcissist, but we ALL have narcissistic tendencies, because we are ego-based creatures. Those with vicitm mentalities do have a bit of this (takes one to know one, so don't think I'm being judgmental).
Quote: Well, you're certainly right here. Where would I begin? How do I think about things differently? What would I do?
Here are The Four Agreements, as stated by don Miguel Ruiz (an excellent book, by the way... quick read, very powerful).
1. Be Impeccable With Your Word Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.
2. Don't Take Anything Personally Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
3. Don't Make Assumptions Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.
4. Always Do Your Best Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.
Given your new mental attitude, let's re-examine these:
Quote: 1) Sarah had her own reasons for doing what she did (she wanted a husband and a family), but they had nothing to do with me.
2) Should I have confronted her instead of just hanging up on her when she called me or should I have told myself "Her loss for throwing away one of her closest friendships?
3) Is there yet another way you might look at this?
(And I have to ask here... were you actively dating Steve while he was making a move on Sarah? Was Sarah aware you were actively dating Steve when she began to see him?)
So given your new PMA... what would you say?
Quote: 1)Look, Landica, Steve has made it clear in about a hundred different ways that for whatever reason he's just not interested in a permanent relationship with you." And told him good bye and good riddance, instead of hanging around, hoping that someday he'd change his mind.
AHHHHHHH.... did these people really betray you? Are you saying that Steve was clear with you, and you were perhaps misunderstanding him because you didn't want to hear him? If they didn't in fact betray you, how then would you view yourself and this situation? How might it be different?
In any event... what do you think about your statement above now?
Quote: Or H's childhood and his own choices have made him not want to have anything to do with sex or affection. It's not my fault and I can't change him.
Stop the sentence right there. In view of this statement, where does that leave you?
Quote: All I can do is stop him when he goes too far in verbally abusing me.
This seems to be an Oxymoron. Abuse is a abuse. How do you go too far with it? So you are telling me you are willing to put up with some abuse, but not a lot of abuse? Where is that line with you?
A person will only abuse you as far as you are willing to abuse yourself... for once they abuse you more than you abuse yourself, you fight back or stop it. So... how much are you willing to abuse yourself? Have you ever monitored this with yourself?
This is your internal victim's 'modis operendi.' Your self-sabboteur. Can you see it? Tell me how it operates. Tell me how being a victim can be used to your personal advantage.
Quote: Or, of course, leave him. And the fact that I don't WANT to leave H is a symptom of my larger problem?
Number one, he ISN'T your H. The marital contract has already been broken. Stop treating this as if it is a marriage, because it isn't.
You don't want to leave your Ex-H because you are getting soomething out of this relationship. What are you gettting out of it. Don't tell me you stay because of what it could be, if you just worked to make it better. What are you getting out of it right now, EXACTLY as it is?
Wow. Let me deal with some of your easier questions first. I'm going to have to think about the more difficult ones a little more and work to absorb some of your suggestions/ideas/thoughts.
Quote: (And I have to ask here... were you actively dating Steve while he was making a move on Sarah? Was Sarah aware you were actively dating Steve when she began to see him?)
Mmmm...well *I* thought I was dating Steve with an agreement that we'd tell each other if we decided to start seeing someone else. Probably (I'm guessing here) Steve thought we were f*ck buddies who saw each other a couple of times a week and talked on the phone for a hour every night.
And (as far as I know) Steve didn't make a move on Sarah. In fact, I think it was the other way round. Sarah told me that she was thinking about taking Steve out to dinner to thank him for some favor that I had asked him do for her.
We had (what I thought) was a very open discussion about it. I told her that I really didn't like the idea and that it sounded like a date.
Sarah said, no, this was just the way that she thanked anyone who did favors for her. I said that I couldn't believe that she would actually try and make a move on someone that I was seeing.
She reassured me that she wasn't attracted to Steve. She told me that she knew how much I cared about him and said she wouldn't do it if it really bothered me. We left it at that and didn't discuss it again and our friendship continued just as it always had.
Now, of course, no-one put a gun to Steve's head to get him to go out on this "thank you" dinner with Sarah. But the fact is that she was the one who asked him out.
That conversation with Sarah was in October. In December (December 3, to be exact), Steve told me that there was something very important he needed to tell me. I thought that maybe he had decided that he was ready to make more of a commitment to our relationship. Instead, he told me that he had been seeing Sarah.
Quote: did these people really betray you?
Did they *really* betray me? I don't think Steve did. I do think Sarah did.
And at least he had the guts to tell me what was going on.
Coincidently, just a couple of hours before that talk with Steve, I had been on the phone with Sarah. We chatted about all the new clothes she had bought, including a bunch of short skirts and tight tops. I told her that, with her figure, she'd look great in them. Oddly enough, the topic of Steve didn't come up.
In the end, Steve didn't owe me anything. Sarah, on the other hand, had been one of my closest friends for years. She knew exactly how much I loved Steve.
In fact, she once said to me, "I always know when you're thinking of Steve because you get this certain little smile on your face." I told her over and over again that I had never felt the kind of love for anyone that I felt for Steve. That I didn't think it was possible for me to feel that way about anyone.
And I blush to think of the initimate details of my relationship with Steve-- both physical and emotional -- that I shared with Sarah.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that when you share those kind of things about a man with a girlfriend that, yes, she's betraying you if she starts seeing him.
But, in the end, what difference does it make? Even if it wasn't a real betrayal, it sure felt like one. Or am I missing something here?
Quote: Number one, he ISN'T your H. The marital contract has already been broken. Stop treating this as if it is a marriage, because it isn't.
I think I've inadvertently introduced some confusion here. I've been calling him H because H is his initial.
I suppose I could come up with some other name for him. How about X? I certainly don't see my relationship with X as a marriage. I don't feel any of the commitment that I would if I were married to him.
Well, that's all I can deal with for now. But I'll be baaaaack....
Good for you. You are very clear on this issue. I think Steve betrayed you as well, but you are more willing to let him off the hook -- that's a problem. Let's call him a Putz, with a capital "P."
What occurred with Sarah, while painful, is also a clear example of a BOUNDARY. You are capable of them... even though what seems to be a black and white issue you might claim as an 'easy' one. In this instance, you refused to be a 'victim' with Sarah. You cut her out of your life. Period. Friends don't do that to friends. Period. No ifs ands or buts. Period. Non-negotiable item. Period. Got it? Yep. That's a boundary.
Do the same thing with your X.... if not tolerating verbal abuse is a non-negotiable for you. (If it isn't we really need to examine why.) Think of how you were with Sarah when you found out. Get in that frame of mind every time your X goes into verbal abuse mode. Think of opposing council breaking some court rule... do you sit there and take it? Is that in the best interest of your case/client? Would you ever, ever, ever allow it? No. You would probably act/object before it was a conscious thought.
Same thing with a boundary. You just have to be clear on what they are -- make a conscious decision about them -- so that you are very clear when they have been violated.
Does that make sense?
And personal boundaries... when one has to defend them, are usually pretty painful. Lots of people would rather have their boundaries violated than to have to experience pain...
See how good you are at this and you didn't even realize it?
What becomes murkier for you, I believe, are the boundaries you set with men. I'm sure this is because of issues with your father. Girls need to be loved by their daddies, and when that is absent, we become doormats when we shouldn't, or we become overly controlling... we tend to operate in extremes because we never really had that oh so important foundation from our Papas.
So. Say it with me. Steve was a PRICK, a dishonest, dishonorable schmuck who DID NOT deserve you. You did not betray him or yourself because you said you would love him forever, and now do not. To continue to love him would continue your victimization from him. Getting over him was the healthiest thing you could have done for yourself. If you beat yourself up for it one iota of a second longer... your evil internal victimizer is winning. And we cannot allow that.
Does this make sense?
Are you beginning to see that you are NOT a failure as a woman -- you just don't have your self-confidence firmly in place, nor are you clear on your boundaries... this creates CONFUSION. How can you defend your line when you don't know where it is?
Which brings us to 'love.' In your world, as a child, to be loved meant there WERE NO boundaries. None. They got violated all over the flippin' place. So when 'love' enters the picture... you are like a little boat getting tossed around at sea. You do not know what it is like to experience love with appropriate boundaries. No wonder why you are confused. Who the fck wouldn't be?
Quote: What occurred with Sarah, while painful, is also a clear example of a BOUNDARY. You are capable of them... even though what seems to be a black and white issue you might claim as an 'easy' one. In this instance, you refused to be a 'victim' with Sarah. You cut her out of your life. Period. Friends don't do that to friends. Period. No ifs ands or buts. Period. Non-negotiable item. Period. Got it? Yep. That's a boundary.
Eeriely (sp?) enough, that's almost word for word what I wrote before I lost my last post. Yes, I can see that I did the *right* thing with Sarah. She just wasn't someone that I wanted in my life. I didn't want to hear her explanations or justifications. I just wanted never to deal with her again.
As for the rest.... I'm sleepy, but I'll think about it in the morning.
I also assumed that you havent tried stopping him while he is in a fit of meanness and saying- --- 'If you cant be nice----There is the door. I will not be treated by anyone, Especially you, my best friend,(?) like this. You can stop, or you can leave. Your choice.'---instead of leaving yourself
Quote: And what if he says no? Actually, more often, it's the other way around. I'll try to talk about X (what I want, what I don't want), he sets a boundary in stone. "Landica, I don't want to talk about this now (or ever). Just leave me alone
your mixing up several different scenarios here.
What if he says no? hmmm so you havent done this then, have you. I didnt say order him to leave. I said give him a choice, stop being mean (setting up a boundary) or leave. Choice has a very interesting effect on people. It elicits a different reaction then ultimatums and threats. also you are throwing up objections, probably out of fear of the outcome. Boundaries dont have fear. They can cause loss and various other unpleasant feelings but they are good for us in the long run. Come what may.
That was in response to your first question. Second scenario.
Quote: I'll try to talk about X (what I want, what I don't want), he sets a boundary in stone. "Landica, I don't want to talk about this now (or ever). Just leave me alone
first --What you dont want. If he doesnt want to talk about what you dont want...Great. He should <shudder yuccky word> respect what you dont want. He will only respect which you require. ex. I dont respect seat belt laws. they put no points on my record. I dont wear one. They prevent me from doing my superman impression of flying thru the windshield and being the first one on the scene of the accident to actually start assisting those who HAVE gotten injured. (joke/ kindof) If I get a ticket I pay it and continue on without one. The fine amount makes me yawn/ Im doing my part for city improvements/paying the nice officers salary. However when I go four wheeling I wear one. The laws of physics require/demand that I do so. its about respect.
Ok last scenario. You in turn must also respect what he doesnt want. Which brings us back to choice. either he wants to talk about the R or..... ?? either you accept that he is the way he is or .....??
Gel had to do this to start the beginnings of progress. Define her boundaries.
Im going to differ with corries assesment of your marital contract. Marriages existed for millenia without POP. Pieces of paper. You and H have remarried for all intensive purposes. Joint dwelling, socially recognized, family unit, implicitly understood fidelity. Id wager there are even joint finances somewhere. my opinion. at any rate those POP have no consequence on emotion and rarely on action.
Quote: I think Steve betrayed you as well, but you are more willing to let him off the hook
Well, this is certainly true. But I do feel that Steve had less reason to be loyal to me. Or to put it another way, that he lived up to his side of the contract. We had a "deal" that, while we weren't exclusive, we would tell each other if we started seeing someone else. Which he did.
Quote: What occurred with Sarah, while painful, is also a clear example of a BOUNDARY. You are capable of them... even though what seems to be a black and white issue you might claim as an 'easy' one. In this instance, you refused to be a 'victim' with Sarah. You cut her out of your life. Period. Friends don't do that to friends. Period. No ifs ands or buts. Period. Non-negotiable item. Period. Got it? Yep. That's a boundary.
This makes me feel better about myself. At least I did the *right* thing with regard to Sarah.
Though, just can't understand why this episode made me fall apart in the way that it did. And I really mean fall apart, I lost 15 pounds (which I certainly did not need to do, spent most of my days crying or sleeping, and couldn't really perform adequately, either as a mother to my son or at work. Taking a shower was a major effort. I lost so much weight that I had to be hospitalized for about a week, while they basically forcefed me.
Why did I let these two people affect me like this? I just don't get it. Even when X and I split up, I was able to rebound pretty quickly.... What I think is that, post-X, I developed such close relationships with my girlfriends, that the realization that I couldn't trust them either just push me over the edge. Sound about right?
Quote: What becomes murkier for you, I believe, are the boundaries you set with men. I'm sure this is because of issues with your father. Girls need to be loved by their daddies, and when that is absent, we become doormats when we shouldn't, or we become overly controlling... we tend to operate in extremes because we never really had that oh so important foundation from our Papas.
Well, this could be. Maybe I just learned to expect so little from my father, in terms of love, affection, affirmation, that I'll too easily settle for little from another man.
Quote: So. Say it with me. Steve was a PRICK, a dishonest, dishonorable schmuck who DID NOT deserve you.
[
:laughing: Yeah all that, and he was also not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. I once sent him a famous love poem in Latin (he had been a classics major in college) and he said "Landica, you know I don't know Spanish."
No, what I miss is not Steve per se, it's the way I felt about him that I miss. I just looooved him. I thought his balding hair was cute. I thought his receding chin was adorable. I thought his cluelessness about art and literature was soooo sweet.
It sounds ridiculous now, but, I even convinced myself what was (in retrospect) good, but far from great, sex was eathshattering. Although, to give him credit, he was extremely well, um, endowed.
One of my friends once said to me "Landica, you're always going on and on about what a great body Steve has. How is he different from anyone else? Does he have three legs?"
"Actually," I said, "just about"
But, getting back to the issue of boundaries, I'm doing pretty well. I just blew off "freezer guy" #2 (that's what one of my friends calls ex-boyfriends that you remain friendly with). Felt really good.
So that brings me back to X. He's been *good* lately. But (and this is a boundary) I'm not going to remain in a sexless relationship forever. Of course, it's a little trickier than I realized, because X has now told me that the anti-depressants he's on make it impossible for him to, um, get it up. And, while I recognize that, theoretically, there are lots of other *things* we could do, what I really, really like is *real* sex.
Well, this is certainly true. But I do feel that Steve had less reason to be loyal to me. Or to put it another way, that he lived up to his side of the contract. We had a "deal" that, while we weren't exclusive, we would tell each other if we started seeing someone else. Which he did.
Okay. Major eye roll on this end. PUH-LEEZE. He called to tell you he was seeing your BEST FRIEND.
Quote: Though, just can't understand why this episode made me fall apart in the way that it did. And I really mean fall apart, I lost 15 pounds (which I certainly did not need to do, spent most of my days crying or sleeping, and couldn't really perform adequately, either as a mother to my son or at work. Taking a shower was a major effort. I lost so much weight that I had to be hospitalized for about a week, while they basically forcefed me.
You lost twice, that's why. You lost your H to another woman... and then on the rebound you lost the man you WANTED everything to be perfect with to your best friend. Reality became a bit too much for you, in my mind. Would you give yourself a break, please? Double whammy. Throw in the betraying friend and I believe we could call this a Triple Dog Whammy. The mother load of all below the belt hits. And you wonder why you fell apart... yeesh. If I didn't know better, I'd swear you were me... smack your head, woman.
Quote: What I think is that, post-X, I developed such close relationships with my girlfriends, that the realization that I couldn't trust them either just push me over the edge. Sound about right?
NOOOOOOO.... Sweety you SOLD them to each other. You talked about your wonderful friend to your boyfriend... you talked to your best friend about your wonderful boyfriend... you KNEW this guy wasn't for you... you set yourself up. As cruel as that sounds... you proved to yourself, without a doubt, that you were NOT worthy...
However, there is this small little part of Landica that has got an amazing amount of GRIT.... that is just not buying into this whole victim thing you got going... which is why you are so confused.
You try to convince me that you know nothing of boundaries, nothing of self-respect, nothing of intimacy... but I'm not the one hiding from it... YOU are. (I have my own schtick going, quite similar to yours.... so it makes it easy for me to call YOU out on it.)
Not buying it, woman. You are one tough cookie, one smart lady, you got great instincts... you know, in your heart, what is best for you... yet you got through life ignoring it in preference for proving your unworth and putting yourself in the hospital. Okay.
Quote: Well, this could be. Maybe I just learned to expect so little from my father, in terms of love, affection, affirmation, that I'll too easily settle for little from another man.
This is the understatement of the year. Perhaps this is why you have dodged my question... what, exactly, are you getting out of the current situation with your XH? Exactly as it is... and he's currently being sweet, my azz. His radar is up... something ain't right in dodge... he KNOWS you are onto him, and you are very close to kicking his poor worthless butt to the curb. Can we say... M-A-N-I-P-U-L-A-T-I-O-N?
Quote: it's the way I felt about him that I miss. I just looooved him
God, woman, the tiny gems that just SPILL out of you. You miss being 'IN LOVE.' You're not 'in love' now... so what the fck you doing? WHY are you not out there finding someone who deserves your being in loveness?
Quote: 'm not going to remain in a sexless relationship forever. Of course, it's a little trickier than I realized, because X has now told me that the anti-depressants he's on make it impossible for him to, um, get it up. And, while I recognize that, theoretically, there are lots of other *things* we could do, what I really, really like is *real* sex.
Oh for the love of GAWD, I'm going to puke. Where is that friggin' wall for me to smash my head against.... I know I put it somewhere. I like you. I really do. You and I could have an honest rip roaring fcking great time together.
Let's see if you've learned anything... WHY am I ready to puke and then pound my head against a wall?
Corri, muttering to herself, questioning her saneness about wanting to smack a prosecutor upside the head... and alternately wanting to hug the sh!t outta her... just cuz she needs a hug...
And, while I recognize that, theoretically, there are lots of other *things* we could do, what I really, really like is *real* sex.