Corrie is right. Nothing that others do is about you. It is like we are going through a second adolescence – you know life is like a party that our inner teenager won’t go to because they have a zit on their nose. We are all conscious of ourselves and the impact everyone has on us. When in fact they are not thinking of us at all.
There was a thread a while ago called Love the Chemical Reaction This explains a bit about why you felt you truly loved Steve. You have not betrayed him Landica or your H. I spent 8 years with my former BF mostly because he had had a damaged childhood and I felt that he would be devastated if I left him! he left me in the end. It is time to get over yourself. Your importance to them, your significance in the universe is that of a zit on a teenager’s nose – (Remember I am speaking to myself as much as to you or anyone else here Landica – please don’t feel I am trying to put down).
This all sounds like no-one cares for each other or has any emotional connection to another – but that is not how it works. The old chestnut – if you love someone let them go – holds true. Leave them free to pursue their heart’s desire while maintaining an EC which shows you have empathy with them. If they tell you about their hopes and dreams, validate, listen, empathise. Don’t be hurt or upset that their dreams are not yours, don’t worry that they don’t do what you want them to. Do you have any good friends Landica, you know ones you’ve known for years that just accept you, that don’t hear from you for a year or two and then you pick up the phone and it’s like you’ve never been apart? If you do then I think you will understand what I mean.
When H rescued you from the shock of being betrayed by Steve and Sarah he was there for you. On some levels it was self-serving but in another way it really wasn’t. That shows he has an emotional connection with you. Be there for the highs and for the lows in someone’s life but don’t tie them down and don’t let them tie you down.
I hope this helps you get it. The next part and the very hard part that I am still on the nursery slopes of is to start acting in ways that reflect this understanding of ourselves. Not to carry on in the same old groove using the same habitual ways of behaving that we have lived with for so long.
take care
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
I confess (to your enjoyment, I'm sure) that I'm stumped.
The counselor confesses... MUA HA HA HA. J/k
Or is it more fun to just watch me flounder?
The only thing I like to see flounder is a 'great catch' on the end of my rod...... .....mmmm ..... Tuna fishing off Baja on the way to the San Benito Islands (breath taking, pristine, diving and lots of sea lions and guadalupe fur seals) is fun, but there is nothing like having a 120# pacific halibut run your line out while breathing in the Crisp, salty, pine scented, fresh alaskan air.... man I miss halibut fishing (piss on this hell on earth they call the city of angels... city of demons, sharks and rats I say) .... I digress
SO no I dont enjoy watching anyone here flounder. Its kinda counter to me wanting to 'help' if, when I can. I do like causing reactions, pointing them out, and making people think while they laugh, or curse me. Whichever, its all good. I do like teasing. I would love to watch you flounder should we be on opposing sides of the depo table ....but since you are a criminal lawyer, that wont happen (knock on wood)
Hmmm, There is something in that statement.... Something to do with your Inner voice. cant quite put my finger on it...."I probably should be able to figure this one out on my own, but, I confess (to your enjoyment, I'm sure) that I'm stumped. Care to enlighten me? Or is it more fun to just watch me flounder?" You assume a negative connotation to my motives.... it appears. I was just making an I statement. I wasnt trying to stump you, expect you to figure it out, or leave you guessing, when I made my comment about my assumptions. It was also my way - a guys -of saying sorry, since I felt 'bad' for being 'mean'. Why couldnt I just say sorry? Guys dont say sorry, boys dont cry....Smart guys are never wrong... They do try to make up for their mistakes with their ACTIONS. Let me state it clearly. Do you see any of this in your Hubby?
back to you and your internal voice, Maybe its just you, may be reinforced thru work, may be reinforced via Hubby....
Care to enlighten me? Enlightenment comes from within. We can follow other bright lights, even try to get a spark from others flames. Which I have beeen doing here. But you have to feel the A Ha yourself. Untill then its just chicken scratch letters strung together in words, making sentences, trying valiantly, but ineffectively to describe concepts.
So I assumed that you hadnt tried all of these...
Quote: I've tried ignoring it, saying something equally hurtful back, trying to make it into some kind of joke, saying very softly "you know, that really hurt me." None of these have worked at all.
specifically the last one. I also assumed that you havent tried stopping him while he is in a fit of meanness and saying- --- 'If you cant be nice----There is the door. I will not be treated by anyone, Especially you, my best friend,(?) like this. You can stop, or you can leave. Your choice.'---instead of leaving yourself(stop doing that-- every time you come back He wins the battle. Your reinforcing bad behaivior on his part. STOP IT!)
Boundary. Big brick wall boundary. Stand in front of the mirror, flex your guns and say 'GRRRRRRRRR. I have Boundaries.' LOL. Im laughing, but I am not kidding.
Since you stated you have tried all of the aforementioned,(though you didnt say for how long) I agree with your assesment that he is very very sharp,(obviously he has you lusting after him) and will see thru any 'tactic', technique. Good. You can make boundaries, state them plainly and clearly much as GEL is doing, and he can either be a part of this R or not. I think he will choose to stay. So its time to knuckle down, take care of you FIRST, and not put up with his emotionally abusive BS anymore. UNacceptable. I want you to consider the following. If my H leaves me -awesome, terrific, wonderful me--- I have lost nothing.
Because that fear of loss is the only thing stopping you from standing up for your needs. You are not leaving, not conflict avoiding, not runing away, not being emotionally immature. You still have to be FEMALE though, or he will want to leave.
Quote: Corrie is right. Nothing that others do is about you. It is like we are going through a second adolescence – you know life is like a party that our inner teenager won’t go to because they have a zit on their nose. We are all conscious of ourselves and the impact everyone has on us. When in fact they are not thinking of us at all.
Well, this certainly rings true. But maybe not exactly in the way that you mean it.
In my darker moods, I sometimes phrase it to myself as I'm a character in a book that's really about someone else. And not a major character, either. All I can do is watch, from a distance and through a glass, darkly, and try to discern the "real'" plot of the story.
Come to think of it, that describes my childhood pretty well. And maybe my life in general. Things happen "to" me. My mother tells me she'll be going away for eight weeks, an eternity to an 8-year-old. My husband tells me he's leaving me for a younger woman. My boyfriend tells me that he's decided to date my best friend. And I can't really do anything except accept their decisions and try to deal with my feelings as well as I can. Which in most cases, wasn't very well.
Look, I'll tell you a secret (well, you and everyone else on the internet ). The time I felt "best" about myself was (long, long ago when I was really and truly -- not just legally -- single) when I had a brief affair with a married man.
Now, of course, at least at the beginning, I had no idea he was married. I didn't think to ask and he certainly didn't tell me. But when I found out, I felt this odd (and kinda sick) surge of power and confidence in myself. For once, I was the one being chosen, the one who mattered, the one with the power to just walk away and end it. Which I did.
But maybe I *prefer* relationships where I'm the -- for want of a better word -- supplicant. I've certainly met my share of men who seemed as if they were prepared to value me, who seemed to feel more for me than I did for them. And I had no problem ditching them, mostly without a second thought.
I don't think that H would be lost without me. Far from it. He'd most likely be happier and better off. And I suppose I'd be better off without him (except, of course, financially). And it's not -- I don't think -- that I'm afraid of being alone.
When I was single, I would go to parties and feel sorry for all the other women, stuck with these partners that *I* certainly wouldn't want (though maybe they were perfectly happy). I felt proud of myself that I didn't need a man, that I could do everything (well, almost everything ) myself.
Dunno. Could it be that all you people are actually right and my problems are largely internal? Or, to put it another way, I'm just one f*cked up chick....
Quote: In my darker moods, I sometimes phrase it to myself as I'm a character in a book that's really about someone else. And not a major character, either. All I can do is watch, from a distance and through a glass, darkly, and try to discern the "real'" plot of the story.
Come to think of it, that describes my childhood pretty well. And maybe my life in general. Things happen "to" me.
I began my journey on this rocky road was when describing to a friend that when I was a child I used to feel like I was floating above myself watching what went on. She looked at me quite goggle-eyed because she was sexually abused by her father and said “Sorry if I’m wrong but that’s abuse, that’s a child’s reaction to being abused”. That was the moment I finally realised that I am a f*cked up chick too . Up until that point I had always regarded my parents as a bit mad - you know colourful characters - but that I'd survived intact. Wrong! They were a pair of nutters who should never have been left in charge of children - LOL
Quote: For once, I was the one being chosen, the one who mattered, the one with the power to just walk away and end it. Which I did. When you ended the relationship with the married guy you felt good because you established a boundary. Healthy people (apparently) do that all the time which is why healthy people usually manage to get it together with healthy people – while the rest of us poor suckers are stuck with other emotional cripples. The reason you did that powerful thing for yourself was because it was easy and clear-cut. You are not that f*cked up. A simple black and white scenario arose and you were able to do the healthy thing.
Quote: But maybe I *prefer* relationships where I'm the -- for want of a better word -- supplicant. ….
I don't think that H would be lost without me. Far from it. …..
When I was single, I would go to parties and feel sorry for all the other women, stuck with these partners that *I* certainly wouldn't want (though maybe they were perfectly happy). I felt proud of myself that I didn't need a man, that I could do everything (well, almost everything ) myself.
Read Narcissism by Alexander Lowen Don’t worry if you have read anything already about NPD because you DON’T have a personality disorder (says Dr Fran ) This book explains the full spectrum of Narcissism from the most mild to the psychopathic. But I feel you would learn a hell of a lot by reading it and understand why you feel you prefer to be the supplicant.
take care
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Quote: Read Narcissism by Alexander Lowen. Don’t worry if you have read anything already about NPD because you DON’T have a personality disorder (says Dr Fran ) This book explains the full spectrum of Narcissism from the most mild to the psychopathic. But I feel you would learn a hell of a lot by reading it and understand why you feel you prefer to be the supplicant.
Hmmm... you've piqued my interest. I'll order it. Though (and maybe this is why I should take a look at the book) I don't see myself as a narcissist.
Except, maybe, if there is such a thing, an unrequited narcissist...
YES... you are missing my point, though I am most pleased to see you are close to getting it. Ever play hot/cold when you were a kid... someone would pick out something in the room and as you got closer, they'd say "hotter," or as you moved farter away, they'd say "colder."
We're playing hot/cold... and you're getting warmer. Again, though, finding it on your own has tons more significance and is more likely to stick than if I just came right out and said blah, blah, blah. Hence the hot/cold stuff.
I will tell you that you are probably a supplicant and things seem to happen 'to' you in life because as a kid you were never given the opportunity to develop any kind of self-confidence of your own. It was always, always quashed.... at least when it came to intimate relationships. You go along because that is what you have always done... and that is where your sadness and confusion come in... you hate going along, but you really don't have the self-love or the self-knowledge to do anything BUT go along.
So this is what we are attacking. Steve didn't DO anything TO you. Sarah didn't DO anything TO you. Your H didn't DO anything TO you. Not because you were or were not important to any of them... it was never about you, period. I am not saying that so that you translate it to mean that you are not or were not 'worthy' for it to be about you... the whole view should be thrown out ENTIRELY.
Your weakness and propensity... the need for it to be about you in some way is the problem EXACTLY. This in and of itself creates an identity for you. You KNOW how to play this role in life... even if you don't like it.
The role was created for you based upon your childhood experiences. You've accepted the role as your own.... and somehow you've accepted that there is no other role for you to play... you've accepted what you consider to be the 'truth' of others' perceptions of you as your own truth.
This is what we are in the processing of undoing with you... it is very, very scary to decide that you will no longer be a passenger in life.... you get to drive for the very first time... and you probably have no idea where to begin... or you do... but to actually do it is something else...
You villanize and abuse yourself with your own mental dialogue... blackfoot noticed that with you... and you are going to have to start re-programming that as well. But you have to WANT it. I can tell you this until I am blue in the face, but until you decide to give up the self-flogging, victim role addiction you've got going... we're going to walk in circles.
You were taught to be a victim from the earliest age. It's apparent in how you write/speak of yourself, even now. You still accept this as your own truth. I"m telling you, you don't have to accept this, there is no reason for you to accept it (unless you like being this way, then that's cool)... understand that you have all the power in the world you need to change this. You just have to want it.
At the very core of you, you believe "I am a victim. I am not worthy to be anything but." That's what comes through loud and clear to me.
Hate to say it, sister, but this is only true if you accept it. Making any sesne?
Well, it's heartening to hear I'm getting a little closer. You are making sense. Lots of sense. But it's hard to think/see a different reality
Quote: So this is what we are attacking. Steve didn't DO anything TO you. Sarah didn't DO anything TO you. Your H didn't DO anything TO you. Not because you were or were not important to any of them... it was never about you, period. I am not saying that so that you translate it to mean that you are not or were not 'worthy' for it to be about you... the whole view should be thrown out ENTIRELY.
Your weakness and propensity... the need for it to be about you in some way is the problem EXACTLY. This in and of itself creates an identity for you. You KNOW how to play this role in life... even if you don't like it.
Interesting. I associate (not having yet gotten the book Haphazard recommended) the concept of narcissism with a kind of grandiose thinking, with egoism, with thinking you're somehow superior to others. But I suppose it could work the other way around too....
Quote: This is what we are in the processing of undoing with you... it is very, very scary to decide that you will no longer be a passenger in life.... you get to drive for the very first time... and you probably have no idea where to begin... or you do... but to actually do it is something else...
Well, you're certainly right here. Where would I begin? How do I think about things differently? What would I do or have done differently?
Would I say (trying here), Sarah had her own reasons for doing what she did (she wanted a husband and a family), but they had nothing to do with me? Would I/should I have confronted her instead of just hanging up on her when she called me? Or would I have told myself, "Her loss for throwing away one of her closest friendships?" Or maybe "It's good that I found out that I couldn't trust her before I wasted another minute of my time with her."
Would I have just said to myself, "Look, Landica, Steve has made it clear in about a hundred different ways that for whatever reason he's just not interested in a permanent relationship with you." And told him good bye and good riddance, instead of hanging around, hoping that someday he'd change his mind.
Or H's childhood and his own choices have made him not want to have anything to do with sex or affection. It's not my fault and I can't change him. All I can do is stop him when he goes too far in verbally abusing me. Or, of course, leave him. And the fact that I don't WANT to leave H is a symptom of my larger problem?
Quote: You villanize and abuse yourself with your own mental dialogue... blackfoot noticed that with you... and you are going to have to start re-programming that as well. But you have to WANT it. ....
You were taught to be a victim from the earliest age. It's apparent in how you write/speak of yourself, even now. You still accept this as your own truth. I"m telling you, you don't have to accept this, there is no reason for you to accept it (unless you like being this way, then that's cool)... understand that you have all the power in the world you need to change this. You just have to want it.
Okay. Let's say that I want to change. I certainly can see that what I've been doing hasn't been exactly working out that well. What are the first steps?
You don't have to tell me.
But at least give me a few more clues so I can figure it out myself.
Quote: Guys dont say sorry, boys dont cry....Smart guys are never wrong... They do try to make up for their mistakes with their ACTIONS. Let me state it clearly. Do you see any of this in your Hubby?
This absolutely is H. When he feels that he's done something wrong, he takes out the garbage or takes me out to dinner or cleans up the living roon.
Quote: I also assumed that you havent tried stopping him while he is in a fit of meanness and saying- --- 'If you cant be nice----There is the door. I will not be treated by anyone, Especially you, my best friend,(?) like this. You can stop, or you can leave. Your choice.'---instead of leaving yourself(stop doing that-- every time you come back He wins the battle. Your reinforcing bad behaivior on his part. STOP IT!)
And what if he says no? Actually, more often, it's the other way around. I'll try to talk about X (what I want, what I don't want), he sets a boundary in stone. "Landica, I don't want to talk about this now (or ever). Just leave me alone."
Quote: I want you to consider the following. If my H leaves me -awesome, terrific, wonderful me--- I have lost nothing.
Because that fear of loss is the only thing stopping you from standing up for your needs.
Well, that's true. I don't want to lose H. But, maybe, you're right. If he can't/won't meet my needs, what exactly am I getting out of this relationship?
Oh, and I'm sorry that I didn't recognize what you were trying to say/do.
Guy I used to go out with emailed me saying how he'd really like to see me. Yeah, I know this guy pretty well. What he wants to do isn't exactly see me.
And he knows all about the situation with H.
I used to really like this guy and in the past, I might have agreed to go out for a drink with him. This time I told him I wasn't really interested in hearing from him again.
Ever.
I said it very nicely, but I was pretty clear. And it felt pretty good.
One step away from my self-imposed victim role? Or Landica cutting off her nose to spite her face?
he left me in the end. It is time to get over yourself. Your importance to them, your significance in the universe is that of a zit on a teenager’s nose – 
(Remember I am speaking to myself as much as to you or anyone else here Landica – please don’t feel I am trying to put down).
Its kinda counter to me wanting to 'help' if, when I can. I do like causing reactions, pointing them out, and making people think while they laugh, or curse me. Whichever, its all good. I do like teasing. I would love to watch you flounder should we be on opposing sides of the depo table 
....but since you are a criminal lawyer, that wont happen (knock on wood) 
and my problems are largely internal? Or, to put it another way, I'm just one f*cked up chick....