Excuse me. I believe Corrie and I both have come upon something new, and unexpected, and it causes us both to be a little 'testy/ing' on occasion. Its fun for us though.
So after reading all of your comments from yesterday about your H's foo, etc. I am going to have to join the unanimous decision, sigh. I dont want to. (but also refer you to Cobras closing remark. so M positive, cant help it.) But you -so far- have demonstrated that you are yet another one who has 'tried everything.'
Not really, but it appears as though your issues are as Cobra and Corrie are saying and about to walk you thru.
I assumed a couple things about you, one was right one was wrong, but right now 'iron walled' boundaries are more important then anything else. Care to share you FOO?
I want to say one last (probably long and rambling) thing to this
Let's just say, maybe he shouldn't be so positive that I won't
Do the 'right thing'. Make a decision. Then follow it thru. do not willy nilly stumble from this to that, to whatever. Not for him. Not for morality, not for OP,(well maybe your son).
For you. What the 'right thing' is, is not simple.( do not just see the obvious here of my above quote. Look deeper. you didnt think this, would be simple, did you?) Its always unique to each person. It is usually 'the hard road'. Which of course entails 'pain'. ewww yuck we all hate pain. growth always requires discomfort. Always. So when it really hurts. Know you are growing. when you take it you'll always be able to hold your head up, and look back at the path taken with out regret that comes from not wanting to see where you come from. What the steps are to get started is always confusing and easier with OP help, BUT in the end you own it.
Im gonna sit back and watch you and Corrie for a bit, when those boundaries become clear to you, then I will toss out some of those 180's. youll find you will be already doing them though.
you can do it smarty pants, (and I say it with encouragement and sincerety this time, not bantering)
I am going to give you a direct hint, I know the above is very broad and indeterminate, not why you are here.
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but he hates any discussion about "the relationship," so I basically don't have any deep discussions with him I dont know how else to put it. He has to be broken of this. Something that will require him to come to the table and talk about the R, as yuckky as doing that is.
attraction is not logical, but we can choose to be.
Quote: If this is the case, I’d like to ask you a question. Really think about it, and if it hits home, it’s probably going to really smack you in the gut.
What if neither of your parents really loved you? What if that were true? How does that make you feel, and where then does that leave you?
Well, (although he'd probably deny it) I actually don't think that my father loves me or even really cares all that much about me. He mouths the words once in while and comes to visit me occasionally. But that's about it.
When he does visit, he's always complaining about the traffic and the distance. He's told me on numerous occasions that he just doesn't have time more than once every four months or so to see me or his grandson. (he lives less than an hour away by car and is retired. He's also in perfect health and goes to New York a few times a month and Europe and the Carribean at least twice a year)
When I was overwhelmed with depression following the Sarah and Steve issue and having trouble coping with the tasks of daily life, he told me (and my therapist -- who was shocked) that he just didn't have the time to come and help me and my son out.
How do I deal with it? How does that make me feel? Basically, I try not to think about it. But, yeah, I do feel that I've done the best I can and that I really couldn't have done anything more to "win" his love.
My mother? Well, that's a different story. She once said to me, when I was about 11 or so, "Landica, I love you more than I love your brother and I also hate you more than I hate your brother."
I think she loves me now, but I'm sure that she didn't really love me when I was a child.
My mother was way ahead of her time. Unlike my friend's moms, she worked. She was even a doctor. (not a nurse, as I always had to explain to my teachers).
She had affairs. She ran off with a much younger OM (who was our live-in babysittter ) for a quickie Vegas divorce. When she got tired of OM (after about 5 years of marriage), she ditched him for OM2, who she also married.
So, I definitely felt that my needs and wants came a distant third to my mother's relationships and her work.
How does that make me feel? Well, not good, but at least I don't blame myself for it. My mother made her own decisions about what mattered most in her life, and that certainly wasn't me or my brother.
But the only time when my mother really *hated* me was from when I was about 13 to 22. When my mother was having her affair with OM2 (at the time she was married to OM1) she was never home, leaving me and my brother with OM1, our stepfather.
OM1 directed all his anger with my mother against me and (though I hate to admit it, for a short time verbally, physically and (to some extent) sexually abused me.
I put a stop to that on my 13th birthday, when I announced that I was moving out to live with my father and that I was taking my little brother with me. I did exactly that and, in some ways, I think my mother has never forgiven me.
Sorry for the sob story. I don't think about it that much, but when I write it out like that, my childhood does sound pretty bad.
But, getting back to your original question: "What if neither of your parents really loved you? Where would that leave you?
I guess I'd have to say that it would leave me pretty much where I am now.
Got LOTS of things for you to think about and consider, but my time here is very limited.
You have to realize that even though you don't 'own' your parents behaviors (good) on an intellectual level... the residue of their behaviors linger deep within. They affect you on a subsconscious level.... and this causes great confusion... which you ARE experiencing.
I will reiterate again, your xH and what you've got going with him... isn't the biggest issue at the moment. I'd take the advice given to you here by Stig and Blackfoot to keep things sane and peaceful... but I wouldn't 'leave' or attempt to 'ramp' up the R until you have a firmer grasp of why/how you are doing the things you do. Once your confusion has cleared, you will know EXACTLY what you would/could/should do...
...afecting my best Hip-Hopper voice modulation to Corri:
"Daaaa-yaaaamn, girl!"
Think I'll sit back and enjoy some FOO Fighters music for a bit. (where are those guys anyway?)
Oh, and, Landica, I almost forgot. Per your earlier response:
I extrapolated from your post what your husband's position might be, ie, reading on art history theory or some such. Now, I know he is much more than an Art History 101 instructor. LOL.
And you. Bad-Stigmata-Bad. Not every attorney you meet is a soulless corporate lawyer shark, even if it really really feels like it most days.
Prosecutor. Nice, counselor. Serving the public. Gold Star for you.
After Corri gets done with ya I'm sure you'll be able to call upon those skills to whip your husband back into shape via a withering cross.
Thanks for the clarification.
I ASSuMEd. Feel free to read between the cases.
-Stigmata-
PS. Your H's past coping behavior is a bit unsettling to me. Would you ever describe him as an empathetic person? More on this later after Corri gets in your head (she's good at that btw). And, please, no more doppelgangers around here. I already have the willies as it is.
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Quote: Well. That explains A LOT. Jesus. I feel like I've found my clone.
Gee, and here I was thinking my life story was kinda unique. Seriously, though, it's very comforting (if a little surprising) to hear that someone can actually identify with my experiences/feelings.
For the moment, how about if we keep this on the boards, rather than going to email?
Quote: Got LOTS of things for you to think about and consider, but my time here is very limited.
Fire away. When you get the chance, I'd be very interested in your thoughts.
Quote: I will reiterate again, your xH and what you've got going with him... isn't the biggest issue at the moment. I'd take the advice given to you here by Stig and Blackfoot to keep things sane and peaceful... but I wouldn't 'leave' or attempt to 'ramp' up the R until you have a firmer grasp of why/how you are doing the things you do. Once your confusion has cleared, you will know EXACTLY what you would/could/should do...
I like this advice, agree with it and will definitely follow it. Especially since H has been extra-sweet recently.
Please don't worry about the job assumptions. I was purposely being vague (and maybe even a little tiny bit misleading), since I didn't think it was really necessary to explain exactly what each of us did for a living.
Quote: Your H's past coping behavior is a bit unsettling to me. Would you ever describe him as an empathetic person?
Interesting question. I'd never really thought about it that way. I guess I'd say that, in some ways, H is too empathetic. That is, he is so deeply affected by others' unhappiness or pain, that he can't deal with it except by withdrawing totally or lashing out.
Quote: I assumed a couple things about you, one was right one was wrong
Okay, I probably should be able to figure this one out on my own, but, I confess (to your enjoyment, I'm sure) that I'm stumped. Care to enlighten me? Or is it more fun to just watch me flounder?
Quote: Im gonna sit back and watch you and Corrie for a bit, when those boundaries become clear to you, then I will toss out some of those 180's. youll find you will be already doing them though.
Well, enjoy the view. But feel free to contribute at any time.
Quote: you can do it smarty pants, (and I say it with encouragement and sincerety this time, not bantering)
Quote: Well. That explains A LOT. Jesus. I feel like I've found my clone. Got LOTS of things for you to think about and consider, but my time here is very limited.
Please, please (when you get the chance, of course) enlighten me as to the LOTS of things I can think about and consider.
Sorry for the delay in responding. I've been out of town for the last three days... I haven't forgotten about you, just been really pressed with time.
To get you thinking.... let's assume for a moment that your parents do not love you in an emotionally acceptable way. I am sure this is even more obvious to you now that you have your own child. Knowing how you feel about your own son, and then thinking back on your own childhood, I'm sure the stark difference is blood chilling on some level.
This doesn't make your parents 'bad' people, just very, very limited. So if we assume this is true, does that mean YOU are limited? Intellectually you would say no immediately. Can you say this in your heart? Can you accept that you ARE a lovable person, and that Who You Are and your own Self-worth are not dependent upon your parents limitations?
It's easy to misplace blame on our parents for all the ways in which we feel limited as people, after all, they molded and shaped us in our critical formative years. We carry these experiences of ours into adulthood, and if we never challenge them, we hold THEIR limitations as OUR own truth. It rarely, if ever, occurs to us to challenge what we ASSUME to be TRUTH, for we have accepted it as such.
We humans, as a matter of course, will always question that which appears false or suspect to us, but rarely, if ever, do we challenge or examine what we hold to be TRUE. Never asking ourselves, 'but why do I hold this to be true? Well, x, y, and z, happened, so that must make these things true...
And I say to you... 'well, not necessarily.' Because NOTHING, not ONE THING, that anyone does is because of YOU. Everything we do in life is an ego-based action or reaction. Period. Think about it... really think about it.
When you can see that everyone in your life was working their own agenda that had NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU... it becomes a bit easier to see those things that we've always held as true are now on some very serious shaky ground.
We must all at some point in our lives accept responsibility for ourselves. At some point, we must sever the remaining ties we have with our 'childhoods' and accept responsibility for our own 'lovableness.' Who We Are, How We Think, What We Want. You throw out EVERYTHING you've ever held as true, and start all over again. You may find some things that you want to keep, or rediscover as truth, from an adult perspective, but you own it as an action of YOURS, not something that was foisted off upon you years and years ago by people who were struggling with their own faulty humaness. It's starting at square one. If you can boot your parents out of your 'lovableness' equation, the whole equation that is YOU... can you look at yourself as a fresh canvas? Can you see yourself in this brand new way? How does it feel? Can you feel how this completely obliterates all the previously held assumptions you've had about yourself? It will feel awkward and new, and in some sense, it may even feel like a severe identity crisis.
If you feel this way, that is a good thing. This is where we need to get you. Think on this for a time, for it is a lot to take in and absorb. Let me know when you get there, or if you have any questions. Then we'll continue.
Quote: Because NOTHING, not ONE THING, that anyone does is because of YOU. ........When you can see that everyone in your life was working their own agenda that had NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU...
Well...yes. I can, after thinking about this for awhile, see this. It's not all about me. Sarah, for example, didn't betray me because she wanted to hurt me (well, maybe, just a little). She did it because she wanted what she wanted and I was just, well, collateral damage.
And I certainly don't blame my parents for not really loving me the way I wanted them to. We all have our limitations.
But, and I've been thinking about this for awhile now, in a way, the ultimate betrayal is the way that we betray ourselves. I felt, truly believed that I would always love Steve. I felt that way even after I found out that he was seeing Sarah. I copied in some journal that I was keeping at the time a quote from some Latin author that "although you're gone forever, I will always love you."
But now, all these years later, I don't love Steve anymore. In fact, I think about how stupid I was to be involved with him. And I feel that by stopping loving him that I've betrayed myself in a worse way than he ever betrayed me. Even though it would obviously be counterproductive not to "move on" and stop caring about people who don't care about you.
"Life goes on," Steve always used to say. "And on." I'd say.
And the same thing with H. I feel that if I truly valued and cared about myself that I'd just tell him to get out of my life. I feel like I'm the "bad" person.
) for a quickie Vegas divorce. When she got tired of OM (after about 5 years of marriage), she ditched him for OM2, who she also married.
Seriously, though, it's very comforting (if a little surprising) to hear that someone can actually identify with my experiences/feelings.