Haphazard gave you a very accurate scenario. I often felt like that in my 1st M. The thing is that what has made the difference in this M is that even if I'm not exactly in the mood, the EC is better and H doesn't expect "Debbie does Dallas" or berate me for not being sexy if the sex is subpar. Yes, even HDW's have moments when they aren't that horny or when the sex is kinda mediocre. In my former M, there was little EC, H didn't approve of me sexually (wanted something that I wasn't) and so I did sometimes feel violated. Your W needs to find her voice in your R and most especially in your sexual R. It is ok for her to say, "Honey, I'm a little tired but a quickie would be good. Or, how about a bj instead." By the same token, you need to find your sexual voice in your marriage and be able to say, "Honey, you seem a little tired and I am really horny. How about a quickie or a bj?" OR...."How about I draw a bath for you, put the little ones to bed and we'll see how you feel about things later."
The problem in our M's is that so often things reamin unsaid and the longer they do the more the significance of them grows. Once in awhile not being in the mood is normal. However, when we don't or feel we can't address it candidly it begins to look like global lack of interest, lack of caring, lack of emotional connection, or outright sadism on the part of our mate. Does that make some sense?
Thanks for your perspective Karen. I don't feel like I am berating my wife for not being sexy *enough*, I know that getting in touch with your sexual side, especially when it has been repressed takes time and effort, just like dealing with my self-esteem will take time and effort. I can see how I instead have over personalized it (as GEL's husband is apparently doing) as being my fault when the W wasn't into it enough, or didn't O. GEL's H sounds a lot like me, except maybe that I want sex more than him. I can see how my W could turn my own self-denigration into me thinking she was at fault and thus having her own version of the self-denigration. I'm seeing that the only way out of it is for me to approach her confidently, repeatedly over possibly many sessions until she internalizes the fact that what I mainly want is the EC, and not expecting hot sex. At the same time, when it is sub-par, don't personalize it as a failure on my part, which in turn makes my wife feel like she has failed. Take each instance as a lesson on which we can learn how to TRY to make the next time better. If it is, great, if not, there is another lesson. What I need the most practice with is balancing being agressive and confident with patience and understanding. Being too much A&C can lead to a sense of failure when things DON'T go right, while being too much P&U, you never get anywhere because of the biochemistry involved. Then again, maybe I'm just thinking about it too much.
"W needs to find her voice in your R and most especially in your sexual R. It is ok for her to say, "Honey, I'm a little tired but a quickie would be good. Or, how about a bj instead." By the same token, you need to find your sexual voice in your marriage and be able to say, "Honey, you seem a little tired and I am really horny. How about a quickie or a bj?" OR...."How about I draw a bath for you, put the little ones to bed and we'll see how you feel about things later.""
I see what you are saying about finding the voice. I was hearing people say that to me, but misinterpreting it as finding your niche. You literally mean finding your voice. Say exactly what you mean/feel. There is nothing wrong with me asking for a quickie. There is nothing wrong with me even wanting a quickie.
I do still have some worries about our history though. In the past, I allowed her to completely beg off of sex (in effect making every instance a quickie), and it led her to believe that all I wanted from her was to "get off" not that I wanted deep EC sex from her. I just need to find a way to make it completely clear to her that while a quickie is ok, it does not represent the entirety of my sexual desire toward her.
I feel like I'm rambling, so I'll quit.
"The problem in our M's is that so often things reamin unsaid and the longer they do the more the significance of them grows. Once in awhile not being in the mood is normal. However, when we don't or feel we can't address it candidly it begins to look like global lack of interest, lack of caring, lack of emotional connection, or outright sadism on the part of our mate. Does that make some sense?"
Yes it does. Lack of complete candor in our relationship is one of if not the major problem.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
First of all, I am not very sharp at present, so take into account. Up till 5 a.m. last night dealing with London and my sleep continues to be out of whack. Up till 5 again now. Taking "tomorrow" off.
Secondly, as I had reminded everyone ad nauseum, and as I am a man of my words, I had every intention of making this post, post #69, my final journaling post on this board. (wink-wink, nudge-nudge, Corri for the idea). I had been writing it out even, and was ready to post but decided to trash it to the recycle bin. I frankly don't care anymore what the number is and I am quite positive no one else on these boards really gives a flying fcuk either (gee, can ya tell what kind of mood I'm in?)
See, I felt I had to set a strict limit for my "journaling", posting, and "fixing things" as it is my bent to get sucked into problem-solving as is one of my stubborn-a$$ed Taurean traits. I've been keeping a detached eye on the sitches lately but have noticed you in a bit of the throes of the familiar ups and downs again lately, Chrome. (I saw your other thread and may pop in there as well after this.)
I also came across I think Chrissy's invocation for some words from the males, ie myself, NOP and BF so I'm always glad to help if I can. I've found it actually allows me to get out of my own head, which is currently a maelstrom of R thought nasties, and the SSM board gives me hope that not everyone in the world is an a-hole and that there are some damned fine people out there.
Speaking of, it's been nice to follow all of the ladies comments here as I continue to be extremely focused on trying to understand a little better the fairer of our species.
And this is also why I won't be jumping to some other forums that are more situationally apropos to me. I find the pain contained therein is a painful reminder and counterproductive to my maintaining a balance somewhere between the peaks and valleys of my well being.
(Man, whose thread is this anyway? F'ing hijacker, Stigmata. Get over yourself already.)
Anyway, I like to help others in life as a general modus operandi. And I like helping others more than trying to figure my own sh^t out. So if you find any of my comments helpful in yours etc. then I'm glad to oblige with my takes. And don't be shy about calling me out if I'm way off base on anything. Thick-skinned here.
So let's get busy as we embark upon our new 300-level courses in "man building" together, shall we? And, lest you forget, I am sitting right beside you in these classes too. After all, this f'ing doormat, ended up on this site for a reason. LOL.
"...When I approached her in the past, it was through words, asking and even pleading for sex, always accepting a no or a maybe later, never pushing the issue. Two, I have always had this feeling that if I did push the issue, my W would not have just gone along with it."
--We've discussed this before. I am all for communication and verbals in an R but this hasn't done much for you thus far, has it? And the begging, pleading for sex? Blech! This is a knot we're going to have to unravel as it has been tightened over the course of your R. You revealed something very pertinent in this manner about your W's core belief system that I'm going to try and help us both understand. After all, my name itself swims in religiosity, chuckle, so who better?
It's ingrained in her that sex is naughty. Lust is shameful and the like. This is why you cannot, cannot use verbals to "ask" or get her "permission" for sex. Do you see what I mean? Doing this puts the control of the decision right into her lap, so to speak. Her FOO shame simply will not allow her to make that proactive decision of, "yes, baby, let's do it. Let's have some hot sex." Yes, Chrome, don't point out to me she'd never say that. I have an adequate handle on her processes.
What I'm saying is she will thwart or deny the decision to engage in sex every single time unless she gets to the point where she can get past her FOO hangups. (Cobra? I'm using FOO a lot here. Knock-knock?)
--And, yes. These are half-hearted because you're using verbals. What is she supposed to say? You're cornering her insecurity. Stop asking.
And stop thinking in advance what she will say to your approach. You're dreading she will say no to your pushing and you're killing it before giving her a chance to respond negatively. It's okay to push (I would prefer "lead"), it just can't feel to her like "pushing."
"...That doesn't mean she hasn't just gone along with it at times, I'm sure there are times she didn't want it but did it anyway to pleasure me. But I have just always had this gut feeling that me pressuring her into it by physically fondling her to get her excited would result in disaster. Maybe I'm wrong."
--Yes. They all do (go along with it sometimes halfheartedly). As GEL says, don't take perceived negatives so hard/personally.
And, yes, you are wrong. Your gut feeling is projecting wussyman insecurity. So as you think so shall it be. If you're showing her a pessimistic vibe her intuition is going to spot it every time. And, besides, since when does a woman saying, "not tonight, I have a headache," equate to "disaster"? Come on, Chrome, it ain't THAT bad. It's not like this is your first month in an R and you're worried about being rejected. She's an captive audience. You have her. She's not going anywhere. She's not in the mood? So be it. Confidence. "Hey, it's not me; that's her deal." Along with, "There's always another day."
There is a lot of uncertainty and doubt in my mind right now about whether my wife does have an inner hottie or not, or if it is just me and my interactions with her. I know that one of these days, I'm just going to have to take the plunge and find out, otherwise I'll just live the rest of my life wondering. But I'll admit, I'm scared that I will find out that she truly does not want sex at all levels of her being, and that would be a devestating thing to learn."
--Okay. This might get me in a lot of hot water but I'll say it anyway. I frankly don't believe in HD, LD, ND BS. Sorry, don't. Not in any long term R that started out with some real physical interactions/sparks anyway. And if someone had zero desire from the start? Then you knew what you were getting yourself into. These are labels for which I have no use. I prefer to see it as an imbalance between partners--one that ebbs and flows like a tide or is sidetracked by the complexities and stresses of life in general.
Your W is not an LD/ND IMO. I don't believe it. Not someone who can O from a deep kiss etc. (more on the kiss dynamic in a bit). You just haven't found her figurative sexual sweet spot yet. I'm not talking physical necessarily here either, but that is an important part as well.
I think you need to get out of your own head as far as sexual needs/desires go, Chrome old boy, and focus on gently coaxing out her own sexual desire. Like I said before, this is all about her--especially seeing how you feel she is damming up the physical expression in your R, which, in turn, is compounding other problems that may exist therein.
And I'll reiterate, I can guarantee she hasn't been dwelling on this singular aspect of your R a fraction of the time as you. Besides, her religious leanings will not allow her to dwell on sex anyways--these "shameful" behaviors and religious doctrines only instigate her to push them out of her head even faster, in fact.
This is why it is vital that you take control of the decision to lead the sexual R. No talking, begging, asking. Get out of your head and relegate your own selfish sexual desires to second place behind her buried desires for now. And you'd better believe she has them. We all do. Even priests and nuns, as much as that makes me cringe to say.
Pay attention to her. Watch for the reactions to touch, foreplay, etc. etc. I'll use myself as an example here. When I engage in sex I am completely outside my own head/thoughts as to how it's making me feel. I am totally focused on pleasing her. If I do something or hit a spot that gets a positive reaction I file it away into the memory banks. I never engage in the same touch etc. patterns, approaches, or the like in any encounter. Stimulus-response. She doesn't like something? Ooops, won't go there again. With practice and allowing yourself to be a little creative you will eventually find exactly what makes your W crazy or at least very satisfied. She literally has dozens of spots on her body that will trigger her hard-wired pleasure centers .
And once I find that combination and I know she will let go and enjoy only then do I then turn my attention on how I'm feeling. Frankly, getting someone else off really is what gets me off. More Stigmata TMI for ya.
This is why it is, again, so vital that you lead her. It takes the shame/culpability in making the "okay, let's have sex now" decision away from her. "Hey, this is my H's idea. I'm not a naughty dirty girl." Which, in turn, allows her to at least enjoy the pleasure since marital sex is condoned everywhere in The Bible. Exploring each other's bodies is part of God's gift to us and completely natural if done so with love for our partners.
So, if you must talk; and this may be necessary if she really resists after your assertive leading, you have to tell her something like:
"God gave you an incredibly beautiful body. And God gave us the ability to feel great pleasure as we explore each other's body. This is normal and natural. And my sexual desire for you is my way of showing appreciation for having such a beautiful and desireable W."
Anyway, not exactly these words maybe but something along these lines IMO. You see where I am going here. Coaxing. Fostering. Watering the seeds of desire etc. It will take time so you must have patience.
All of this is why I would avoid the "quickie." for now as you and Fran have been discussing. Maybe later down the road. Cart before the horse. Yes, her feelings of shame combined with the wham-bam-thank ya ma'am vibe of a quickie will only lead her to believe you're just interested in using her body to get your rocks off. After all, she Os from fondling along with kissing so that means to me she ascribes a deper connection to kissing/fondling. Opposite ends of the spectrum here.
Ah, perfect segue for my earlier mention of the kissing dynamic in your R. As I predicted way back, she IS continuously thinking about the A/OW as not enough time has passed for her to process it. It took me years to deal with the A/OM but, rest assured, what happened there was way worse than a kiss or two.
HOWEVER. And this is a big however. The fact that, as you stated, your W can O from a deep kiss etc. means that you might as well have gone ahead and engaged in IC etc. in many ways. She might be thinking your kissing caused these O feelings in the OW and that, my friend, is a very painful and intimate thought for her to swallow. Only way to rebuild her trust now is to start thinking about using WOA on her as you're kissing etc. And not all of your kisses have to be deep and passionate--exp. if she thinks you'll want more.
In the mornings or whatever, occasionally mix it up by grabbing her face with both hands, pulling her to you, dramatic and playful "Mmmmmmm...Smack!" to her lips, and a term of endearment or whatever is natural in this situation: "Love you, beautiful." Or, "Till we meet again, my love.". Something sincere that reinforces that you love kissing her etc.
Finally, in this kissing dynamic, it would be wise to occasionally reaffirm to her that she is an incredible kisser during the act and how lucky you are to have her. Best kisser. "No comparison." Be very careful not to get too specific. Just, "no comparison," or "Hands Down." then drop it.
Her subconscious will pick up the meaning (OW value can't compare to her) and allow her to get the subtle message without causing her to feel uncomfortable. But you should only do this very sparingly, maybe once or twice every dozens of kisses, as if you do it often/regularly it will lose it's meaning and start to appear contrived or phony.
"...a situation unfolded. She was unable to open a jar, so she said "come here you manly man and open this for me." I hopped up quickly before she could step out of the way, put my arms around her, reached past her and opened the jar while nuzzling her neck from behind. She seemed to enjoy that display, so I picked her movie monster style and started carrying her away making moaning monster sounds much to the delight of the twins. A little fun in the chrome household to help me forget my troubled heart. Later yesterday, when were on messenger, and I thanked her again for opening up to me and honestly validated her POV about "not being able to say no." I compared it to my self-esteem issues, in which I don't feel in control of myself and feel lots of pressure to do things (self-inflicted being the difference). She opened up again and said this time that "in my mind I want to start doing things the right way but every time I try to get started, I feel this internal resistance." And she said she feels like she needs an "attitude adjustment." I was stunned yet again. What I wanted to hear being said. I told her I would be willing to help her with her attitude adjustment as much or as little as she wanted. Next time we have an R convo, I plan on asking her what she wants to do about it."
--Stigmata stands up and applauds heartily. A tear at corner of his eye. A Shout of: "You Da Man!" Outstanding Chrome, you couldn't have reacted any better in this situation. Perfect.
Weren't you just saying you never get WOAs? "Manly man" way counts in my book. Fantastic. She's picking up the signals. "Attitude adjustment." Even better news. She's starting to change her entire outlook on intimacy and your R. Very good news.
"...Then, later that night we were watching TV together and I snuggled up to her, and no response from her. Finally, I just grabbed her hand and put it on me, and then she started caressing me. It reminded me again how far we have yet to go before this affection/intimacy thing feels comfortable to her."
--See? You're leading and asserting yourself. Taking her hand, placing it where you want. Reinforcing to her that physical contact is one of your important LLs. You're doing great. Just watch the negative talk and taking rejection hard. She loves ya, man. It's not you, these issues she's dealing with are hers and, on some level, she is beginning to see that they're irrational and unjustified.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
I am taking a break from writing much on the board, but I did read your words and I heartily thank you for your thoughts and advice. No nookie last night, lost my nerve again. The walls just seem so high. Will try again tonight.
glob (will try to get into Chrome by tonight)
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I think you are doing a awesome job and are starting to see babysteps from your wife in the respect that she also wants to work on things. This is awesome!
And Stig very good post. Lots of good insight. See sometimes a woman cannot due a mans job!
Thanks for sharing your "not in the mood" scenario, it does help me understand better how my W might be feeling at times. There is one difference though, and you may find this hard to swallow but it is true. I have NEVER approached my W for sex physically, and when she didn't seem interested just kept on fondling her, etc. until she gave in. This is for two reasons. One, I am not assertive in the bedroom, something I am trying now to change about myself through the coaching of some rather assertive gentlemen here on this board and by reading some books.
When I approached her in the past, it was through words, asking and even pleading for sex, always accepting a no or a maybe later, never pushing the issue. Two, I have always had this feeling that if I did push the issue, my W would not have just gone along with it. That doesn't mean she hasn't just gone along with it at times, I'm sure there are times she didn't want it but did it anyway to pleasure me.
Words! You must really have a way with words Chrome - LOL. I can't believe she can go for it because you ask without starting anything more physical. I will tell you a little story - A long time ago in a far off land when I was in college I hung out with a guy and we were strictly friends. Well one day we were riding back from somewhere on his motorbike and he said - "hey we do everything else together, how about we go back to my place and go to bed together" YAARRRGGGHHHH! I politely turned him down. We're still friends. :-) Now if he had approached the whole thing more subtley and more physically he might have got somewhere. I mean if he had suggested we go back to his place to hang for a while I most likely would have agreed. If he had stuck some music on and kind of engineered some sort of physical activity such as dancing or play fighting he could have crept towards first base (say a kiss) and it would've have built up from there (maybe). Just asking me in words was a disaster! Mind you as I say we're still friends I'm not sure that would be the case if we had had sex - LOL But I have just always had this gut feeling that me pressuring her into it by physically fondling her to get her excited would result in disaster. Maybe I'm wrong.
Yes I think you are wrong - not pressuring her but leading her along all the while being alert to her cues as to whether she is enjoying it. Maybe she doesn't want to be in charge of saying Yes or NO. Maybe she doesn't know yet when you use words but just doesn't think so. Words are engaging her conscious mind, the one that has been brainwashed into thinking of sex as bad. The clues you have been getting from NOP, BF and Stigmata are all good. Stuff about going so far and then stopping is all good. As far as your quickie suggestion, I do like the idea in general. But what I fear is that my W will just get into the mode of giving a quickie every time. Is that an irrational fear? Maybe quickies are a good way to just keep things going until she finds her inner hottie. Again, I'm just confused by all of this.
I understand your fear that that is all you'll get, but I doubt it. You will rev her engines with quickies. Women's engines like to be kept running, if you let them go cold they don't fire up as easily. Sometimes I can go for a week or two not even noticing that we haven't ML then we do and the next night I'm like "where's the sex in this M - we NEVER have any" Maybe try a quickie one night and then try for another the next night? She will still be a little warmed up from the night before and start getting into it. Maybe as you get going a little teasing with "I'm starting to get an idea that maybe your interested in more than a quickie? Am I right" - said in a teasing I know you're a naughty girl really kind of voice. Maybe she'll say "No a quickie's good" or maybe she won't answer if she doesn't answer at this point she more than likely means YES but doesn't want to admit it. At this point start to get to work on more foreplay type activities (it doesn't matter if you are already having IC), thrust a bit harder and say things like I'm right aren't I? You do want more don't you? The conscious part of her mind, the one that is hearing your questions is confused because you're giving her a chance to say NO and she's not saying it - so it gives up and lets her body do it's thing. I feel it would be very unlikely that she would be turning you down by this point so I won't go into details over what might happen next.
Stigmata had a good point when he said: All of this is why I would avoid the "quickie." for now as you and Fran have been discussing. Maybe later down the road. Cart before the horse. Yes, her feelings of shame combined with the wham-bam-thank ya ma'am vibe of a quickie will only lead her to believe you're just interested in using her body to get your rocks off. After all, she Os from fondling along with kissing so that means to me she ascribes a deper connection to kissing/fondling. Opposite ends of the spectrum here.
But I would say two things, one is the quickie is HER option not yours so it is not wam-bam thank-you mam. Second one your youngest is still tiny and she is nursing right? Libido is not high in this situation that is nature trying not to get her pregnant again too quickly. When mine were that age and mums would get together conversation would invariably turn to sex and H's wanting more of us than we felt ready to give. IMHO most mums of babies under a year would prefer a quickie. Which isn't to say you can't try for more if the moment seems right. I was spot on when I said you sound like a more mature version of my H, I have read my way through most of your current posts now Chrome and you are another self-hater with low self-esteem. If I know anything about guys like you W will pick up your vibe when she turns you down and the pain in your eyes or the nervous smile of it's OK coupled with deadbeat looking body language will hurt her. She will want to avoid hurting you as much as she humanly can, because your reaction of personalising everything serves to transfer alot of the hurt back to her. Self-haters cannot bear even the slightest knock, raw and tender self-esteem winces with every percieved blow. That is why she will have gone along with you even so-called not pressuring her and she will nonetheless have felt pressured. But I think you are starting to understand that. I can see how my W could turn my own self-denigration into me thinking she was at fault and thus having her own version of the self-denigration. I'm seeing that the only way out of it is for me to approach her confidently, repeatedly over possibly many sessions until she internalizes the fact that what I mainly want is the EC, and not expecting hot sex. At the same time, when it is sub-par, don't personalize it as a failure on my part, which in turn makes my wife feel like she has failed.
See you are getting it
take care Chrome, I can understand why you might want to give writing on this board a rest for a while. Geez I've been here nearly three years on and off but mainly off.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Just wanted you to know that I read your post and very much appreciate your words, thoughts, and advice. It is true that this is bad timing for S and R work during nursing, thanks for the reminder that it is tougher right now that it might ordinarily be. And your other points about personalizing and how to approach quickies and such are helpful too. Thanks again.
Take care yourself. I'll be back full force again when I am making more progress glob
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Knowing why is not a solution. Actions/ behavior is a solution. despite that wanted to add some science for you Chromo...
Religion and verbals both exist in the -concious choice making- mind, the cerebrum. Sex exists mostly for women <excepting some of the HDW here who have made connections elsewhere> in the limbic system (or corpous collosum), which is why there moods and drives fluctuate so drasticlly with their cycle, IE change in hormones. To a smaller extent in the cerebellum which is where the disinhibitors of drugs, alcohol,( and Orgasm for women )take us too and enable even pysch damaged/ bad mental associations to sex to be ignored/ forgotten. Also- for women- their verbal centers, more specifically, their reactions to what they hear spills over into their emotional centers. Major PITA. We as men have to 'finesse' so much more then women.
Hence stigs advice to stop verbally asking. Lead, with confidant actions. ex. I didnt ask Mel to take off her PJ's. She could have said 'no', but she just waited for my next move... females are receptive sexual partners in the equation, not aggresors. <Cemar if you dont get this, there is no hope for you. You KNOW about the testoserone. So STOP externalizing.> Women will say NO if they do not want to. They will say, ummm, emmm, welll, uhhh, maybe we..., but the kids..., werent we...., ,heheh dont- stop heheh which becomes dontstop dontstop dontstop, blah blah blah.
If you want her to make EC with sex its up to you to make it happen. Dr. Harley talks about this under his sexual fullfilment part of his website.
Stigmata stands up and applauds heartily. A tear at corner of his eye. A Shout of: "You Da Man!" Outstanding Chrome, you couldn't have reacted any better in this situation. Perfect.
Ditto, that was great, I loved it. Also the comment about her cute ass and trying to watch TV. Loved it to, forgot to mention it. Her very demure reply was looking for more of the same.
It's not you, these issues she's dealing with are hers and, on some level, she is beginning to see that they're irrational and unjustified
YES absolutely. And this is exactly where your current leading actions, combined with discussing it in a nuetral setting with help via HNHN, and not avoiding the conflict of having the -logical conversations- as NOP has been telling you - will bring it all together.
Chromo, your struggling on many fronts fighting a bunch of battles. Hope some of them have been victoriously decided. Level off--, once you do, she will also. That may help you, knowing that she is reacting to your ups and downs.
Now if he had approached the whole thing more subtley and more physically he might have got somewhere. I mean if he had suggested we go back to his place to hang for a while I most likely would have agreed. If he had stuck some music on and kind of engineered some sort of physical activity such as dancing or play fighting he could have crept towards first base (say a kiss) and it would've have built up from there (maybe). Just asking me in words was a disaster!
Quote: females are receptive sexual partners in the equation, not aggresors. <Cemar if you dont get this, there is no hope for you. You KNOW about the testoserone. So STOP externalizing.>
Then what explains HD women? HD women often ARE aggressors. Heck my wife was when she was younger.
Also you talk about Dr. Harley. Well if you read his WORKBOOK (not the web page) under the "Sexual Fulfillment" exercises, he states that the return of "Desire" is REQUIRED. Without it, meeting the need for "Sexual Fulfillment" in most cases will NOT be successful.
