Chrome Lets Talk About SEX!

[Chrissy]

I think it was a very interesting mental development on her part.

I agree. What I find even more interesting is she was on the website. Sounds to me like little wifey is trying to work on this marriage also.

I would ask the question tonight if a good time comes up.
I would say something in line to I have been thinking of what you had said this morning and was wondering now that you have an idea about a potential problem, what are you going to do about it. And just wanted to say I will will support your efforts by listening or what ever you need to help you get through this.

You seem interested in what she says you are not trying to fix it for her push her to fix it but are available to her if she needs or wants you to be. Pretty good set up I think. (please someone else chime in here where in the hell our all the men when you need one )

Chrome did you know your wife had been reading that website?

[chromosphere]

"I would say something in line to I have been thinking of what you had said this morning and was wondering now that you have an idea about a potential problem, what are you going to do about it. And just wanted to say I will will support your efforts by listening or what ever you need to help you get through this."

OK, that does sound good. I did this morning bite my tongue several times and just let her talk. She did say more than she had in awhile.

"Chrome did you know your wife had been reading that website?"

Yes, I actually pointed it out to her as a recommendation from NOPkins. I had been on the site before looking through the Generous Husband stuff. She has been reading through the articles and stuff on the website. She likes it because it is biblically based. I like it because the website managers are practical with their religion and not stuck in traditions that have no real biblical basis.

How are you doing Chrissy? You have made several mentions of being in a bad mood, not finding things funny, etc. I'm trying to remember what is going on in your situation now. Anything bothering you that you need to get out?

[Chrissy]

Chrome.

I think it is awesome she is putting in the effort to work on things! So many peoples spouses don't really seem to get into it and start working along with them on this.

No I am fine. I really am just not a person that laughs alot or easily should I say. You know comedy movies the like my family will be busting a gut and I will be like ahhh whats so funny about that. Blah blah. But the last few days I have been chuckling alot on from this board.

Ahhh did have a few hard days yesterday being the worse.
Took my son to be tested for ADD and he brought up something in the doctors office that I vaguly remember from about a year or so ago. When I almost OD. Yeah the doctor sent him out of the room and we had a lenghty discussion about me she ended up more worried about me then him.
Then had to take same son to the juvinile prevention place about some mischief he had gotten into and yet again had to talk about the family dynamics. Needless to say twice in one day and face to face IRL was more then stressful it was embarassing. I have had a headache since. So yucking it up about the fantasy aspect was just what the doctor ordered to relieve some stress.
Its over and I will be fine.
Thank you for asking though

[chromosphere]

"Took my son to be tested for ADD and he brought up something in the doctors office that I vaguly remember from about a year or so ago. When I almost OD. Yeah the doctor sent him out of the room and we had a lenghty discussion about me she ended up more worried about me then him.
Then had to take same son to the juvinile prevention place about some mischief he had gotten into and yet again had to talk about the family dynamics. Needless to say twice in one day and face to face IRL was more then stressful it was embarassing. I have had a headache since."

Yeah, its easy to get caught up in all the R stuff around here, and forget that most of us have other family dynamics that can cause just as much heartache (or headache). Wow, you almost OD? Was is taking too much of prescribed medication accidentally (if you don't mind me asking)? I've done that once or twice, never caused much problem. But my brother did it once with some sort of muscle relaxant and his potassium levels got so low, the ER doctor said "He should be dead." Scary.

"Its over and I will be fine.
Thank you for asking though."

Glad to hear it and no problem.

Well, apparently all this talk of W being an HD in disguise was just smoke. I went home last night, rather eager about the developments from this morning (her revelation I mentioned earlier). It turns out that wasn't what she really meant. What she really meant was that it was ingrained in her head as a woman to resist being PRESSURED into sex, not just sex itself. I could here the implied "like you are pressuring me." Well, then she starts into a discussion basically "you have no idea how it feels to not want sex at all but feel like you have to give it." So much for W being a hottie (except in my mind). She tried giving an analogy of being full and somebody trying to force her to eat a big piece of cake, but no, that wasn't a good analogy. Then she dropped a bomb on me. She mentioned something about "rape" I don't know exactly what because my mind fogged over the instant I heard that word. I must have had a god-awful look on my face right then, because she immediately started backing off the rape thing, saying she doesn't really feel violated. I had been trying to keep my mouth shut and let her talk, but I had to say something there. I said "if you feel violeted by me, you need to say something." She protested "no no no, I didn't mean it" but the damage has been done in my head. I tried to just play it off, because I do want her to open up to me, but it REALLY ... REALLY ... REALLY hurt that she would mentioned rape in the same discussion as our sex life. I didn't say anything more and the convo trailed off. I washed dishes until I couldn't take it anymore and then just went to sleep.

Anyway, I'm going to suck it up and tell her "I really appreciate you opening up to me last night, because I really am interested in what you are thinking and how you feel." I'm sure in my head (if not in my heart right now) she just flubbed up last night, so I'm going to let it go and not make a big deal about it, because I don't want her to retreat back into her shell now that she has come out a bit. I just wish my heart didn't hurt so much over this.

I know I'm probably overreacting, but sex seems SOOO far away now. My dreams of breaking through her barriers by being agressive and confident are shattered. How can I do something like that when she feels violated, at least subconsciously? And it seems that maybe they aren't barriers, that I was inventing barriers when it is nothing more that she simply doesn't desire me. She said she thought things would get better, so I have some hope. But she also complained about how everything on the web is about people like me (the ones who want sex and aren't getting it) and nothing about her (the ones who don't want sex). That is, except for the multiple children message boards where most of the women complain about their husbands wanting sex too much or about not wanting it.

Oh well, I know I need to keep my head up/shoulders back, and try to keep working on the other parts of our R. The sex part is a dead issue, for now. I'm not giving up on my boundary, but the line has been pushed back for awhile.

[honeypot]

"you have no idea how it feels to not want sex at all but feel like you have to give it." So much for W being a hottie

Chrome, firstly when someone mentioned that your wife is a hottie on the inside, I think you should take it as she HAS an inner hottie. We all do. She will need to lean on your strength in order to fight against her upbringing--and YOUR affair--to let it out.

And I seriously doubt that she feels you have raped her. She was describing her feelings and looking for an appropriate analogy. She feels like she can't say no and that is why the rape stuff popped up. Perhaps you could have taken that opportunity to *listen* to her and validate what she's saying..."It would be hard to feel as if you couldn't say no."
Look, what she was doing was opening up to you. This was a gold mine! She is opening up and letting you inside, talking freely about sex and her feelings towards it. Do not let your disappointment show so clearly or I doubt she will ever do it again. Remember to *validate* what she's saying.
Have you ever read any of those goofy communication books..you know, mirror back what your partner is saying, etc etc? They might help.

Buck up. You are in this for the long haul. It will take years for the both of you to construct a new R. Try not to get discouraged over one uncomfortable conversation, ok?

[chromosphere]

"Chrome, firstly when someone mentioned that your wife is a hottie on the inside, I think you should take it as she HAS an inner hottie. We all do. She will need to lean on your strength in order to fight against her upbringing--and YOUR affair--to let it out."

I want to believe it, I want to see what everyone else here seems to think is obvious. I'm trying to do so. And you are right, me taking the low road has made this a lot more difficult. I think you may overestimate my strength though.

"And I seriously doubt that she feels you have raped her. She was describing her feelings and looking for an appropriate analogy. She feels like she can't say no and that is why the rape stuff popped up. Perhaps you could have taken that opportunity to *listen* to her and validate what she's saying..."It would be hard to feel as if you couldn't say no.""

I DID listen to her, more than I probably ever had before. I stapled my mouth shut until she was finished. No, I guess I didn't validate her point of view after she gave it. I know I need to do that, another stupid glob move. D@mmit, I always fcuk things up. I'm a great talker in the huddle, but fumble the ball right after the hand-off. Sheesh.

"Look, what she was doing was opening up to you. This was a gold mine! She is opening up and letting you inside, talking freely about sex and her feelings towards it. Do not let your disappointment show so clearly or I doubt she will ever do it again. Remember to *validate* what she's saying."

I told her very clearly that I appreciate very much her talking to me. I said "I am interested in you. I want to know how you feel, what you are thinking, what you need and want." She said that she didn't feel like she was explaining things well. I told her, "just keep talking to me, I'm listening." But again, no, I didn't validate her point of view.

"Have you ever read any of those goofy communication books..you know, mirror back what your partner is saying, etc etc? They might help."

Nope, add it to the list.

"Buck up. You are in this for the long haul. It will take years for the both of you to construct a new R. Try not to get discouraged over one uncomfortable conversation, ok?"

That is why I said what I said to her this morning. I know what my problem was, I came into it with too high an expectation. Things seemed to be clicking well, it seemed like we were on the verge of a breakthrough. I'm always guilty of aiming to high, wanting to much, and being too impatient.

[Greeneyedlass]

Chrome,

I have one thing to say to you....

CUT YOURSELF SOME SLACK MAN!

You are way too hard on yourself. I know you are working on your self-esteem n'such....but I see self-deprecation working it's way in too much on here, if it shows here....it's likely to show at home too You really IMPO need to work on validating and affirming yourself just as you would your W. You are doing some tough work on yourself and your M, give yourself some credit here...you deserve it.

You cannot expect that just because you now have the info and some of the tools to improve your M that you are going to be able to take that ball of information and score a touchdown right off the bat. There are going to be fumbles...that's part of the learning process for you. What you did the other night with your W, that was practice....keep practicing, you'll get the hang of it! But absolutely stop slapping yourself around for the fumbles. Recognize the fumble for what it is....a learning opportunity.

Hang in there...I'm pulling for you!

GEL

[chromosphere]

"CUT YOURSELF SOME SLACK MAN!"

I know, I know, my self-esteem coach would be screaming at me right now. Well, telling me I am not doing things right anyway, he doesn't scream much, not like athletic coaches.

"You are way too hard on yourself. I know you are working on your self-esteem n'such....but I see self-deprecation working it's way in too much on here, if it shows here....it's likely to show at home too"

Believe me, I am trying very hard to give the W the image of a confident, assertive man, and I think I am doing fairly well. I just set my hopes up too high for last night and wasn't prepared for the fall. I guess its a good thing I have a really long workday today, gives me time to buck up.

"You are doing some tough work on yourself and your M, give yourself some credit here...you deserve it."

The problem is, in this "game" (I know it isn't really a game) of love, marriage, affection, sex, seeing progress is intimately tied up with my feelings of self-worth, which is intimately tied up with my progress, etc. etc. When there is an updraft, I ride high on the thermals. When there is a downdraft, I tend to crash on the runway.

"You cannot expect that just because you now have the info and some of the tools to improve your M that you are going to be able to take that ball of information and score a touchdown right off the bat. There are going to be fumbles...that's part of the learning process for you. What you did the other night with your W, that was practice....keep practicing, you'll get the hang of it! But absolutely stop slapping yourself around for the fumbles. Recognize the fumble for what it is....a learning opportunity."

Yeah, gotta change my basic nature. I can remember my high school music teacher getting on to me about making faces when I missed notes, my high school basketball coach about hanging my head down when I missed a shot instead of keeping it up to play defense, etc. I know what I need to do, I just gotta do it.

"Hang in there...I'm pulling for you!"

I appreciate that very much. Thank you.

[haphazard]

Ok Chrome I am going to roll my sleeves up and try to help you out here (even though I am missing Desperate Housewives by doing this!)

What she really meant was that it was ingrained in her head as a woman to resist being PRESSURED into sex, not just sex itself. I could here the implied "like you are pressuring me." Well, then she starts into a discussion basically "you have no idea how it feels to not want sex at all but feel like you have to give it." So much for W being a hottie (except in my mind). She tried giving an analogy of being full and somebody trying to force her to eat a big piece of cake, but no, that wasn't a good analogy. Then she dropped a bomb on me. She mentioned something about "rape" I don't know exactly what because my mind fogged over the instant I heard that word.

I can totally understand what she is trying to say and you know perfectly well that I have an inner hottie (not so much of the inner ). I think as a woman there are times when you are not in the mood and you kind of go along with it because you know your SO is in the mood. Now this can't very well happen for a man because a man HAS to be in the mood it's kind of a deal breaker if he's not! There have been times in the past when I have felt somewhat violated by my H and he would be as jaw-droppingly shocked as you were to hear me say it. The scenario kind of goes like this.
H nuzzling up in a suggestive way.
Me (not in the mood - oh so rare occasion) not really responding much.
H fondling the bits that are generally guaranteed to get me in the mood.
Me finding it kind of irritating and not at all a turn on.
H not really seeming to notice that I am not responding much carries on - being assertive I guess.
Me thinking Oh well I guess I can get on with it if it is what he wants. Turn around and respond but not in a very HOT fashion.
Continue to go through the motions thinking why the hell is he doing this when it is so darn obvious that I am not in the mood. And that's when I start to feel violated. The worst thing about when it is like that is that it goes on for longer because I guess he does pick up on the distance between us and doesn't feel so turned on as he normally would. And also because he percieves himself as a gentleman he would be thinking he needs to make sure I O when in actual fact I would far prefer him to just get it over with.

Nowadays if stuff like that starts to happen I just say, I'm not in the mood but we can have a quickie if you like, no need to worry about O for me. It's MUCH better that way, because I feel like we have a deal and I don't mind keeping to my side of it. Whereas in the other scenario I feel like we don't have a deal. Quite often I will just get warmed up and into it anyway because I feel more comfortable about the whole thing. That then leads to the opposite problem where he (thinking it was just a quickie)is far further ahead than me and can't hold on for long enough. Oh the trials that flesh is heir to!

Chrome I think you need to talk more about this. She is opening up to you and that is good. Talk to her about the idea of quickies or other ways she can show she cares for you without feeling she is obliged to do something she is not in the mood for. The thing is she is not liking to turn you down as that can be hurtful and rejecting but at the same time she really isn't that much in the mood. With a quickie she can make it clear both that she is not really in the mood but she is fine about doing it for your benefit. Also sometimes if I offer that H will be happy to back down and I don't sense any resentment from him.

take care

Fran

[chromosphere]

"Ok Chrome I am going to roll my sleeves up and try to help you out here (even though I am missing Desperate Housewives by doing this!)"

Glad I could help prevent the killing of a few million of your brain cells. Seriously, I appreciate the time you have given me.

Thanks for sharing your "not in the mood" scenario, it does help me understand better how my W might be feeling at times. There is one difference though, and you may find this hard to swallow but it is true. I have NEVER approached my W for sex physically, and when she didn't seem interested just kept on fondling her, etc. until she gave in. This is for two reasons. One, I am not assertive in the bedroom, something I am trying now to change about myself through the coaching of some rather assertive gentlemen here on this board and by reading some books. When I approached her in the past, it was through words, asking and even pleading for sex, always accepting a no or a maybe later, never pushing the issue. Two, I have always had this feeling that if I did push the issue, my W would not have just gone along with it. That doesn't mean she hasn't just gone along with it at times, I'm sure there are times she didn't want it but did it anyway to pleasure me. But I have just always had this gut feeling that me pressuring her into it by physically fondling her to get her excited would result in disaster. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a bit part of all this is my lack of assertiveness translating into a lack of attraction toward me because I am not a "manly man" in the bedroom. Maybe all she needs is for me to start ignoring those "halfhearted protests" that I mistakenly viewed as unscalable walls. But I still have doubts, and the fact that she thinks I am pressuring her into sex with what I am doing NOW (non assertive asking) makes me wonder if those really are half-hearted protests. There is a lot of uncertainty and doubt in my mind right now about whether my wife does have an inner hottie or not, or if it is just me and my interactions with her. I know that one of these days, I'm just going to have to take the plunge and find out, otherwise I'll just live the rest of my life wondering. But I'll admit, I'm scared that I will find out that she truly does not want sex at all levels of her being, and that would be a devestating thing to learn.

As far as your quickie suggestion, I do like the idea in general. But what I fear is that my W will just get into the mode of giving a quickie every time. Is that an irrational fear? Maybe quickies are a good way to just keep things going until she finds her inner hottie. Again, I'm just confused by all of this.

Take for example yesterday. I was down in the morning over our convos from the day before. But I went home for lunch (part of my overall plan to be at home more), and while I was there a situation unfolded. She was unable to open a jar, so she said "come here you manly man and open this for me." I hopped up quickly before she could step out of the way, put my arms around her, reached past her and opened the jar while nuzzling her neck from behind. She seemed to enjoy that display, so I picked her movie monster style and started carrying her away making moaning monster sounds much to the delight of the twins. A little fun in the chrome household to help me forget my troubled heart. Later yesterday, when were on messenger, and I thanked her again for opening up to me and honestly validated her POV about "not being able to say no." I compared it to my self-esteem issues, in which I don't feel in control of myself and feel lots of pressure to do things (self-inflicted being the difference). She opened up again and said this time that "in my mind I want to start doing things the right way but every time I try to get started, I feel this internal resistance." And she said she feels like she needs an "attitude adjustment." I was stunned yet again. What I wanted to hear being said. I told her I would be willing to help her with her attitude adjustment as much or as little as she wanted. Next time we have an R convo, I plan on asking her what she wants to do about it.

Then, later that night we were watching TV together and I snuggled up to her, and no response from her. Finally, I just grabbed her hand and put it on me, and then she started caressing me. It reminded me again how far we have yet to go before this affection/intimacy thing feels comfortable to her.

Anyway, thanks for your words and advice, it does help me clarify how to approach my W sexually.