Quote: Anyways my point is that I found when I started to do things for my W without any expectations or anything giving in return our R started to improve. I was always a score keeper in regards to "I did this for you and now what about ME".
Luckily I was never a 'scorekeeper' in our relationship, or in any relationships I've ever been in. I LIKE to help people who appreciate help. I do NOT like to help people who want more more more.
Part of how I 'fell down' 6 years ago was because I had NO boundaries and didn't know when to say NO. People used me till I had nothing left to give. Now I am able to do that and feel ok and not 'guilty' for not helping.
W has always been appreciative and still is. I think right now she is afraid to ask me for anything because she either thinks it will send me the wrong message, or she thinks I WON'T help her because of some of the things I have HAD to do that weren't really 'nice' like telling her she HAS to pay utilities, and that her affair is wrong and it hurts me. Just stuff like that. Plus as we know she has never been able to 'stand up' to me so she would be most likely to avoid asking me for anything if the answer MIGHT be 'no'. These are her issues she needs to work on.
Quote: Frank I know you have set very clear boundaries with your W, and that took a tremendous amount of strength. It will only help you and your realationships down the road.
When I was about 10 years old, till I was 17, I lived with my Grandmother, Grandfather and my Dad plus his younger brother. This was in between Marriage #2 and #3. GM was crippled from a stroke she had years earlier and was an angry bitter woman. The right side of her body was paralyzed and she could walk but talking was hard.
Since I was not allowed to leave the house after I got home from school or on weekends I was always around her. Whatever she needed I did for her. If she got mad she'd hit me with her wooden cane sometimes (even though she was weak, it could hurt if I was off guard). Mostly she would just complain to my dad every day about what a 'bad kid' I was. I never knew WHAT it was I was doing that was bad. It just was.
During this time in my life I felt pretty hopeless but I also developed a 'knack' for doing a few things:
1) I KNEW what GM was thinking BEFORE she thought it. I don't know how, I just did. It kept me one step ahead of her so I could survive and be 'good' by helping her when she wanted something. I still got yelled at and told what a loser I was but at least it was with less frequency.
2) Her stroke made her speech very hard to understand but I UNDERSTOOD what she was saying ALL THE TIME because I was so tuned in to her. SOmetimes when she was trying to talk to someone and the weren't getting what she was saying I would blurt it out. Even though it relieved her frustration I still got dirty looks or told to shut up.
3) I eventually came to 'know' how to tell what was wrong with her when she was sick or feeling weak. But I couldn't 'say' it because I was just that 'bad kid who should shut up' so I would say something stupid, so I could get yelled at, so I could then say 'well I guess I was wrong and it's really...' and they would 'hear' me tell them what I knew was really wrong.
4) I read everything I could get my hands on. I had so much time since I also wasn't allowed to watch tv unless someone else was wathcing tv first. I pretty much read every book in the library on various sciences, sci-fi stories, anything.
So, you see, I learned to give of myself and NEVER expect anything in return. And to give till there was nothing left to give. Most of all to never expect that ANYONE would give to me when I needed help. No boundaries.
Also, I learned all that I could about everything and became so much more knowledgable than my entire family about many things and able to solve very complex problems. They were all blue collar workers and were a little afraid of me, or intimidated. not sure which.
But, this event was the turning point in my life:
When I was 17 my dad got remarried. I went to live with him and his wife and prettymuch NEVER went to visit GM. I just didn't want to. Then I went to college and my freshman year I came home (dad's house) for xmas break and she got sick and died. I was devastated and I didn't know WHY. I thought I hated her, I could care less what happened to her.
But, it was something else. If you remember in the movie 'Superman' Clarks dad dies from a heart attack and later he says "I have all these powers, and I couldn't even save him". For me it was the fact that I BELIEVED I was all powerful in her life, her life DEPENDED on me, and if I had BEEN THERE then I, the 'super genious' the one who is responsible because of my abilities to see things and do things, I, could have saved her. I would have recognized the symptoms she had. I was superman and I had failed her and she was dead and it was my fault.
For the rest of my life I had a lot of trouble NOT helping people who needed me. Even people who I SHOULDN'T help. And that's part of how I 'fell down'. I absorbed too much from too many people for too long and left the world. And because I never expected anyone to help me I stayed there and W was a person I had chosen who was incapable of helping me.
Now I'm helping myself again, because the 'trigger' that makes me become my 'survivor' self has been pushed.
Well, that's my story. I hope it resonates with others. I think it's our pasts that have shaped our present, and gotten us where we are right now.
Quote: Sven: Seems there are plenty of folks propping you up over here.
And I am forever grateful. I didn't get to see counselor yesterday when I was REALLY whacked but I have a meeting today. LUCKILY Spitfire was around and talked to me for a couple hours till I felt better. Thanks Spitfire!
Had meeting with Counselor today. I really needed it and it was good for me.
Now remember, a lot of our talks are theoretical so they seem a little weird but it's a study in humnan nature.
As always I will debrief myself.
I told her how hard it has been lately, and how not only have I had to pull myself out of the depression I was in that W couldn't pull me out of, not only did I have to stop drinking and beat my addiction to alcohol, but I also had to deal with the emotional pain of being 'divorced', of there being an OM that triggered all this that my W is 'in love' with, of keeping the family 'together' and sane while W was in her clouds and totally not there and also do all this during the holiday season.
I'm tired. C said "It was all you could do just to pull yourself up and get to 'normal' again". "But you did it, and I think you're about 10% above 'normal' and you should be proud that you did it all yourself."
It has been hard. I cried a bit because I knew that, well, she is right. I did it by myself and in the worst possible circumstances. 3 months of hell. Now I can finally mourn the loss of the marriage. Take a break from 'saving everybody' and just take care of me.
We talked about detaching and how I still feel needy, like I 'need' her and I would like to stop that feeling, and just 'want' her. So she went through an exercise that really helped me to put 'detaching' into a perspective that I can understand.
C: Can you think of a woman that you ever had a relationship with but later on were friends?
Me: When I was a freshman in college, I dated a girl named Kim for about a year. Two years later she was dating a house mate of mine and I saw her all the time because she came over the house. We didn't have any 'bad feelings' between us from 2 years before so it was easy to see her around the house.
C: How did you treat her?
Me: Well, if I saw her I'd say 'hi' and maybe talk about something for a couple minutes since we had school in common but for the most part she was just 'there'. Talking to her was very comfortable, she was a friend. But I didn't hang out with her.
C: Why was it easy to talk to her?
Me: (thinking a moment) Because I didn't want anything from her. I didn't want HER.
C: And I bet that's true of other women you know or have known that you didn't have or want intimate relationships with. You don't really pay 'attention' to them, they are just 'there' until your paths cross. And then you talk about whatever topic is on your minds till there's nothing else to say and you move on. Something like that. You have no attachment to them or expectations.
C: You need to decide that right now, there is no place for her in your heart. She has forfeited her privileges and her relationship by breaking the promises that you made to each other. That doesn't mean you don't care. It doesn't mean you don't give love. It means you don't let HER fill that space right now because she can't, won't and doesn't deserve it.
C: Just like any other female friend, you have no FUTURE with her. Just the present. Live in the present and just don't project into any time beyond it. Don't make assumptions.
C: Withold access to yourself from her. She can look but she can't touch. Letting her do the 'flirty' things she's been doing sometimes , and they ARE flirting, is allowing her access to YOU and proving to herself that she still has you there. But she forfeited that access so don't make yourself available. When you told her on the campout that playfully punching you was a 'privilege', and you also told her that she shouldn't assume you'll go camping with her ever again, you took away (or threatened to) two privileges.
C: Since we often want what we can't have, like she 'wants' OM because she can't have him. She will 'want' to have access to you, the way it has always been, because you have been giving it to her and she will have to come to you to get it. She doesn't want to give up you, the family stability OR the excitement of the OM.
I liked that explanation and discussion of setting our boundaries as a way of actually becoming more 'attractive' to WAW.
We talked about the 'business opportunity' W has. She already knew what I would do because it was the right thing to do, and it was anticlimatic. She did say that deciding that even though it was a 'risk' to ME and doing it anyway was a big step for me.
Her comment was "At some point she will realize that YOU gave her this gift, and you would have given it to her while in the marriage". She needed to only stop feeling responsible for YOU and live her life. She will figure it out eventually".
I mentioned the camping weekend and she was very positive that she was 'uncomfortable' at nite looking at the stars BECAUSE it was romantic and she was with me. And the two times I told her 'no' as in 'no, I may not go camping with you again' and 'no, you can't play punch me - that is a privilege'. She can't think that everything will still be the same forever, she is getting a divorce, remember?
The Sunday nite stuff when I returned and W said she was upset to catch D15 making out because 'I'm not getting any' and the fact that I told her "What you are doing STILL hurts me" was a good reminder to her that all is NOT good here.
And, the photos. I explained that after this 'exchange' I left the house and didn't come back till later. That while I was gone W had e-mailed me the photos of her I had taken to 'help her' pick out the one that was 'right' for her web site. Her first comment was 'That's interesting, since when you left she knew you were mad and she wanted to reconnect to you but was afraid to approach you, and this was a way to do it. Why didn't she either wait till tomorrow or just ask OM? Because she TRUSTS you and was testing to see if you were emotionally gone now.
I read her what I had said to W in the e-mail about the pictures, the kind and loving words I used to describe each one. SHe just looked at me and said "That was wonderful. I wonder what OM will say to her about them? I bet it won't come from the heart like you did." W will compare.
Then she said " I wonder what would have happened if you had said 'go ask OM' instead of replying to her?" Just a thought.
We talked about people like OM, how I just can't fathom that there are people who screw with your emotions. How Spitfire spent about 1/2 hour explaining to me about the whole sub-culture of people who do this. I can totaly comprehend it in a business setting, it's screwing with emotions that boggles my mind.
She said: There are people who live wholly in the dark side of life energy. They are 'takers' or 'predators'. They live for the excitment that exists when you START something, either relationships, businesses, whatever. They can suck a lot of energy from people while they are doing that. But, they really don't DO much, it just looks like they are. They are taking energy from others. When things slow down and there are commitments to be made to a relationship, a business or whatever they were getting their high from, they bail out.
OM has lived with, or off of, his girlfriends, been married 2 times, is in a new business startup that he was really 'excited' about in November when writing to W, and now he calls it a 'hell hole' he wants to leave and it hasn't even OPENED yet. It's actually 'work' now. The 'newness and excitment' of her 'in love' energy is attractive to him. Remember, he 'saw the hurt in her eyes' and that's why he was attracted to her. He basically TOLD her he picked a vulnerable woman and she doesn't get it!
C thinks that it may take a couple visits with him for W to see the incongruities, and he may not hang around long enough because he needs that positive energy high NOW. That may be why he dropped off calling her for several days. Then when she was backing off he came right back in because...it created a level of excitement again! It all seems weird to me, but it sounds possible. But, he did stay with his last Girlfried for 3 years so it is plausible he can string W along for a year or two if she stays stupid. But, W is seeing Counselor and she will guide her to see the truth behind this guy, behind our marriage and her life, as long as she keeps going. That could help shorten this affair. C still thinks he won't hook up with W in February but it's anybodys guess what is really going on.
And, W will notice that it's ME who is actually helping her to achieve her dreams. It's me who is stable. And I've changed my life.
So that's my weird story for today. I'm going to detach and set some 'flirting' bounadaries to catch her off guard. We'll see what happens.
I want her but I won't NEED her and I DON'T NEED her. I was quite fine before her and I'll be quite fine after her. I can't control her at all, I can only control myself. I am no longer 'there' for her all the time. Eventually the hurt will fade. And I'll be a better man for it all.
It sounds like you had a really good session. Good for you. You needed that right about now. One thing in that resonated with me.
Quote: We talked about detaching and how I still feel needy, like I 'need' her and I would like to stop that feeling, and just 'want' her. So she went through an exercise that really helped me to put 'detaching' into a perspective that I can understand.
I think that is where I am at right now, and although I have had a rough night, it is better. It is my feelings of want that are getting to me rather than the "need" feelings that I was having before. I know there is still a ways to go, and I really like what your C said to you about how to handle your particular detachment. It sounds like you accept it as well, so I hope you are able to practice it. Good night, and I hope you have a great tomorrow!
A blow up today. I guess we were due. Just as a note, I did NOT raise my voice to a 'yell' I was calm, but angry at times.
Wcame into my room to tell me that she needed help with D10's homework issues and I don't help enough, I must think she is supposed to do everything. I said I was sorry, she should ask me more and that in the past whenever I DID get involved with the kids homework she made me feel like I wasn't doing anything right and I was a bad dad, and pushed me away.
She says I'm not a bad dad, and when she pushed me away before it was because I was drinking and she was protecting the kids from seeing me that way. She 'followed me around' the house to clean up after me, if I cooked and made a mess, or any other stupid thing you do when drinking. She said it was the entire 15 years she had been doing this and I've been a 100% drunk, not just the past 6 years. I validated her actions and told her I appreciated what she did but I'm not like that now.
(note: Amazingly I was able to start 2 successful companies during all that.) She discusses times when we had big problems with money or business, and she had to 'hold me together'(?). My recollection is that there if there was an event in our life, I was beat for a few weeks, then forced to pick us ALL up, fix our lives, do what I HAD to do to get it together, earn money and take care of the family. None of this was due to anything SHE said or did, it was because I was in 'survivor' mode. like I am now. It was the BIG crash that I didn't get up from. Partly because I stayed in the environment that caused it for too long. It's MY fault for being weak. I accepted that.
I said she did 'take care' of me but she didn't HELP me either. She said we went to counseling but I would get more upset after sessions and we wouldn't work on stuff, or I wouldn't go. I said that was when she SHOULD have MADE US go and brought those issues up! She gave reasons why that wouldn't have worked. All my fault. I didn't try. She couldn't 'make me'.
She said that she just wasn't the kind of woman I needed, to help pick me up. She couldn't do it.
She said 'I have old diary entries from 10 years ago that show it was bad.' (note: she rarely wrote in her diary unless she was unhappy. In one diary I saw several entries of her unhappiness, and one entry saying how 'loved' she felt by me.) At various retreats she went to, she shared how unhappy she was with others, but didn't have the courage to change it. (Note: She said little or nothing to ME DIRECTLY) Last year she came back from one, talked about leaving 'the marriage', finding herself, etc. but we worked it out and stayed together but went back to life 'as usual'. I said 'why didn't you say 'we need to FIX this!'. Of course she said: because I wouldn't do anything.
She said on this last trip, she was 'ready to change', realized she deserved to be happy. OM was just 'bad timing' because she was going to divorce me anyway when she got back and he just made it more complicated.
I said that before she went to the retreat, we were spending intimate time together, that she said she loved me on the phone every day there, even the last day after OM entered the picture. She called me that day and begged to get an earlier flight home because she was scared, she needed to be back with the family. (note: Even when she got off the plane she showed me love and tenderness. It wasn't until 2 days later all hell happened.)
I said it sure seemed like you loved me then, I guess I was fooled. She said: I do 'love' you, how can I not love you. I've loved you for 20 years and I don't know how NOT to love you.
She went off on how much it hurt her that I said she didn't 'do anything to make our life work and solve the problems' and how she decided that SHE needed to be happy and SHE was going to see OM because She DESERVED to be happy. The 'affair' is not an affair because she 'told me she wanted to be separated' a month before she slept with OM. She said 'why is it ok that you drank and stuff but my 'affair' is wrong?" I said "Because I didn't BETRAY our trust in each other and go fly 3,000 miles to sleep with someone else, it's against MY morals but apparently not yours." She said there's no difference and that it's not immoral because she's 'separated' and that it's 'hardly' a relationship anyway and she will sleep with him again when and if she can because she deserves something different than what she had with me. And it makes her happy. It's over between us forever. She has no feelings for me.
I said I really don't CARE what she does with her life. I fixed MYSELF without her help and it wasn't to 'get her back'. In fact, I don't trust her any more. I said She betrayed my trust and I won't trust her with my heart again. I trust her with ANYTHING else but that. Kids, money, anything. I said that I pulled my OWN ass out of the hole I was in all by myself, that I held the family together during the holidays while she was emotionally with OM, that I even had the COMPASSION to recognize that she was unhappy because she wanted to be with him but couldn't and to SAY so to her with compassion, that I will NEVER let myself be that down again for my KIDS sake. And that if nothing else she should recognize that I have changed significantly - but not for her. That I want her to never have to worry I won't be OK when I'm with the kids without her. I will NEVER allow my life to fall like that again. For the KIDS sake and for my own future.
She said she sees that this time I am different than she has ever seen me be. But in past times it didn't last so she doesn't trust it will now. She said I'm very good at manipulating situations to get what I need. She cried slightly when she said this.
I said to her that may be so, but I really don't WANT my marriage back. I don't WANT you back. You betrayed me and I don't trust you with my heart. I don't know if I ever will trust you with my heart. I said I would SO MUCH like to just leave this house but I won't because I have to hold it together financially and emotionally for the Kids. It would be so much easier for me if I didn't have to see you 'sneak around' to chat with OM or send e-mail or call him. She blew up and said 'he isn't the only person I talk to you know and I don't "sneak around"'. And it's hardly a 'relationship'. I said "but you carry it on right in front of me." She said she's sorry it hurts me but she hurt a long time with me and she just wants to be happy. All my fault again.
There was a lot more but the summary is:
-- She doesn't think she is having an 'affair', she is separated and it's OK. -- Sleeping with him is OK because she deserves it. She suffered and it's all my fault. -- She was unhappy for, maybe 100 years or so, it keeps changing and becoming longer -- Our marriage was a sham, we weren't happy at all. Not at all. Never. We pretended. -- But, She doesn't know how to 'not love me' after 20 years. -- We will never ever be together again. It's over, she says she doesn't feel anything. -- When I challenged her 'compassion' and 'integrity' for the way she's hurting everyone and she's having an affair, she defended herself with examples of being 'nice' to me (compassion) and 'getting separated' before screwing around (integrity). -- When I said I don't want her back and I don't care what she does with her life, that I'm sure I will find someone who can see me for who I am she didn't say anything, looked a little numb. -- Also, both her Mom and Dad do NOT approve of her affair. I am surprised she TOLD her mom, and that her mom felt this way since she did a similar thing to her dad. She even said some of her friends don't either. (Of course her emotionally immature ones do.)
I don't want her or the marriage back. I want something better. I would like it to be with her but it seems more and more unlikely. And I'm tired of being hurt. I deserve better than this for MY suffering over the years. But, it's all my fault as usual. I'm sorry. I really am. But I wasn't alone when all these things happened.
Ok Frank. You blew up; it’s all right. We’ve all done it. But I know you are just frustrated and upset because your feelings are crushed by what your W. is doing. I know it feels so great in the moment to release all of that anger, all that pain. Now, you can get back to DB’ing if you so choose. I know you say you don’t want your marriage, but I really think you do. Give it a few hours and when you cool down you will probably agree. You’ve been in the fight for so long now; I know your marriage means a lot to you. Just offering your support. Don’t listen to your W. rewriting your history. They all do it, and not to our benefit. She’s justifying what she’s doing with om so that it appears more acceptable to her.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
Quote: I know it feels so great in the moment to release all of that anger, all that pain. Now, you can get back to DB’ing if you so choose.
Well, the positive is I did NOT yell. Neither did she, It was a pretty calm 'argument'. An 'adult' discussion of some sort. Everything was factual.
Quote: I know you say you don’t want your marriage, but I really think you do. Give it a few hours and when you cool down you will probably agree.
I'm cooled down. All I see is an impossible to DB situation. Too much hurt from me to her over too many years. Too much happiness with OM, and the underlying message that 'happyness' is out there... as long as she is not with ME. And OM isn't going to 'disappear' soon. The longer it lasts, the more she is convinced that 'happy' is the same as 'not with frank'.
I told my friend Brian that when I say things like 'But she didn't HELP ME' I feel like I don't deserve to say that about her. She did her best, and I should have helped myself instead of prolonging the hurt. She's hurt too much.
Quote: You’ve been in the fight for so long now; I know your marriage means a lot to you.
It's been 3 months. I used to think that there was hope when OM wasn't in the picture. I thought there was hope in the first few weeks BEFORE she slept with him but was still pursuing him. But after she got her 'taste' of what she would call 'being happy' and then she looks at our life, and cries when she thinks about the times I tried to change and failed, why would she have ANY motivation to give us ANY chance? She has no respect for me, and doesn't value the marriage any more. She only 'loves' me out of habit. This is not hope.
Quote: Don’t listen to your W. rewriting your history. They all do it, and not to our benefit...
Regardless, there is enough truth to it to make it all too real to her and to make a relationship with me undesirable.
I don't recall any DB success stories that were anything like my situation. I mean, alcohol addiction, depression, hurt, fears, lack of self esteem on her part, it doesn't get any worse except for relationships where there's violence. At least I didn't (and couldn't) do that.
Even though I was fully functional while drinking all these years, the hurt took it's toll on her. Most people I know say that in general if someone leaves a relationship where there was alcohol abuse, they don't go back. ever.
This can't be changed. I think all I can do is just take my licks and move on. I'm so sorry for what happened, I think I've atoned enough and almost forgiven myself. Some future woman, who doesn't have that history with me, will come into my life eventually. Then maybe I will be happy too.
I don't know what to say except I'm really sorry to hear how you're feeling. From your posts, I can see how hard you've tried to show your W that you've changed. It really may just take more time for her to see that the changes will stick. That said, you still do need to take care of yourself so you don't fall into a depression again. I hope that you will not act rashly, but whatever you do, you know that your friends here (and IRL, I'm sure) will support you whatever you decide.
Nic
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
