Well, was just talking to W about potential travel schedules in February because I may need to go to Phoenix on business. I asked are there any dates that I should try to avoid because she may need me around, maybe she has classes or something scheduled? She said:
"Well, I don't have anything planned, except maybe the week of Feb 19-25 but nothing definite."
She was talking in a kind of tired voice (it's a little late, 11 pm) when she said this and did NOT say what she 'may' have planned, and seemed deliberately vague.
Now, OM was potentialy supposed to come out to CA for some reason around that time, and when she was worried that the affair was fading out 2 weeks ago, and she also found out from me that she had to pay half the utilities at our house, she had told him not to come because she couldn't afford to pay to travel to wherever he was going to be. (I am guessing northern california, we are in southern california.) Which was odd, that he would be this close and still not make the effort to see HER but expect her to make the effort to see HIM.
I got the impression he was visiting someone else as the 'excuse' for the trip and hooking up with W was a 'bonus'. He never said much in his e-mails other than calling them 'that person' or something. Maybe it's an ex-wife, visiting kids or something. It seems that he was going to see this other person(s) as the actual reason to justify the trip and seeing W was a bonus. He said something similar when they tried to hook up in Florida around thanksgiving by saying he could use the trip as a reason to do some other business he had to do anyway. The florida time frame was BEFORE they were 'lovers', she was still pursuing him.
Remember, she was telling me last Wednesday that it was 'over' because she had hardly heard from him for the previous 2 weeks. Then he called on Thursday and must have promised her the world and she's his true love or something. It's back to full "in love" again so it would seem that those travel plans would go back on the agenda. After all, she isn't 'getting any'. Who knows what his story is.
Her 'maybe I will have plans' didn't seem very enthusiastic, and she hadn't said this to me any other time in the past couple days when I was discussing travel times so perhaps it's really 'iffy'.
A lot of people bet me that OM was not going to come out here to see her. But, maybe he's coming out for some other reason anyway and wants her to come to wherever he is staying, or he will travel down here to see her.
When this was first mentioned by him in an e-mail a few weeks ago, I got the impression he wasn't coming to see HER, but for another reason and she was going to go where he was to see HIM by virtue of the fact she said she couldn't afford to take the time off to go. If he was somewhere local she wouldn't have to take time off from her work.
I really do hope that it doesn't work out because it will show her (maybe) that he is NOT going to make any real effort to see her right now and that his promises might not be so sincere. But, if it does work out then it will strengthen her connection to him and keep it all going. I still just don't understand why he would want to pursue her and would say he is 'In love with her'. I probably never will.
Whatever happens, I can't DB with her and make any useful progress as long as there is the 'relationship' going on. (she doesn't see it as an affair because she is getting divorced). When she thought it was over and contact with OM was thin, she was actually warming up to me a little. But that's all gone again.
And, I can't stand thinking about her screwing someone else again. I think I'm just going to try to not care about her any more. Maybe God will intervene and make this trip not happen, maybe OM just won't come. It's hard to 'bet' if his original intention is to see someone else for some reason and he actually has to come for that reason anyway. But it's weird that he's not coming JUST to see W.
I don't know what else to do except just see her as she is, not wanting to be with me, lusting after someone else.
It feels so sad to sit here and discuss my wifes love life with OM. she's supposed to have one only with me. This is so wrong. What the hell has happened to my life?
I'm seeing Counselor tomorrow, and W will see her wednesday. She said last meeting that she was sure W was going to start questioning things in her life, including OM, in the next 3 sessions and made me promise not to give up until after 3 more sessions.
Right now I just want to not feel anything for her. Just like she is not feeling anything for me. How do I do that?
Sorry I have not been very inspiring the past 3 days. I'm just not there right now. I know it took me a lot of strength to get this far and it's drained me to see the whole thing escalate. And I feel bad because there are others on this board who are dealing with a lot worse stuff. I just wish we had all been smarter.
Oh, I don't think I posted this but the other day (before OM reconnected with her) I was showing D15 my picture book from when I went to Europe in 1985 with my then girlfriend and her friends. D15 is interested in traveling when she is older. W came into the room and saw us looking at the book and said 'Oh, looking at pictures of GF?'. She then kissed D15 goodnite and mussed my hair. I thought it was weird that she didn't say 'looking at pictures of your trip?'. A couple days later when I was talking to D15 about the trip again, she told me that she thought W was jeleous of old GF and thought it was funny. It's weird how they can be so all over the place in their feelings.
My last post didn't really have a question so here it is.
Should I just be indifferent to her from now on? Just live in the house, be nice, polite, maybe joking but just not deal with her any more when I don't have to?
I've been treating this situation like it's 'just an affair' but the reality seems to be that she really WANTS a divorce. She sees no reason to think otherwise. Not having to 'feel responsible' for my feelings, depression or anything about me is very 'freeing' for her. And she often reconnects with the hurts she felt and that makes her feel better too.
(Although, when she thought OM relationship was over last week she went out of her way to tell me it would never work between us, like she had been thinking about it being possible.)
Whatever we may think of OM, he doesn't exhibit any of these traits to her. And the more that 'relationship' goes on, the more it hurts me.
It's not like I can change overnite - it took me years to get this way and right NOW (and the past few years actually) I really need a supportive wife and home environment but I have the opposite. Instead I have a WAS who is indifferent to me unless she fells lonely I guess, in which she is pleasant and warmer. I also HAVE to be stronger than I have been in years so my kids don't feel unsafe. My 10 year old is emotionally a wreck, every little thing makes her cry and she is not doing well in school.
I've been dealing with this for 3 months which for many on this board is no time at all. But living in the same house and knowing what she is really thinking and doing and pulling myself up from the hole I was in is taking its toll on me.
The dillemma is whether or not just total 100% detaching / indifference / avoidance will just piss her off and push her farther into validating her choices as being 'right'. I mean, I'll still be nice, talk about kids and house stuff and talk to her when she needs something. I just don't want to know her any more unless I have to.
It isn't that she is directly mean to me, I just cannot cope with this life we live any more. A wife who wants to do 'family things' together and believes we will be 'great friends' as we divorce, and we'll stay great friends, and still do family things. Not going to happen. Maybe in 5 years but not now.
I fixate too much on this whole thing and it hurts my ability to get work done. I need a solution.
The 'Break Free of the Affair' book says to 'back off' and maintain contact but only Quality contact. To me that is consistant with what I am saying - withdraw to indifference, but when there is contact, make it quality contact.
I need to do something different to protect MYSELF.
Ok, Frank, here is a bit from post from someone who posted on my sitch:
"Detaching" is also *not* about distancing one's self. I see lots of folks confuse the two. I read where some get themselves "detached" by becoming physically absent from their WAS, yet detaching is something that's done in your head and does not require being apart from the other person, rather, it's something you do with the other person present, and while the other person may even be pressing your buttons.
There was more and you can go to my thread and read it but it stemmed from my sympathizing with your detachment issues, namely how not to "do more of the same" in terms of being unavailable for her. When I read that post to me, I realized that what I was missing, and what you may be missing is that to detach is not to distance or put walls up. I truly thought it was. I thought it was getting out of the house, going into another room, etc. What it is, is not reacting to the same stimuli that cause you pain. I can understand if a new variable comes into the picture, like she says he's coming to visit her or something, but maybe you could just focus on not reacting to the stimuli you are used to; her email to OM, the R talk, her distance/closeness, etc. By not reacting, I mean you can CHOOSE to be closer to her if she wants to be close to you, but you don't just do it because you think it's the right thing to do. Choose to live within yourself and isolate your reactive thoughts somehow so they don't control you. I am working on that and it's getting easier. Oh, and one other thing, if it were me, and I was trying to ease off on the attachment thing, I would immediately stop snooping into her email, phone and IMs. I know the brief time I spent thinking about how to "catch" her or see them together, it was all consuming and I never thought about anything else. People have different opinions on this, but it seems to me that you have all the info you will ever need on this a-hole and the likelihood that you will get anything positive from knowing more is, well unlikely. Just my thoughts.
Alrighty, a lot has happened since I last checked on you. First of all, let me say that I am so impressed by your strength of will and character. No matter what happens, no matter what you or she decide, you will always have the knowledge that you did what you could.
Secondly, I don't know if this is good advice or not(!), but I think that you are doing too much for her: the photos, the website, letting her think you'll go on family vacations together after D...ain't gonna happen. And why are you helping her with the business? Are you just helping by letting her live in the house, or will you invest? I don't want to sound like a b*tch, but I don't think you should invest any money in it: "Sorry, W, but I'm going to need my $ to get set up again after the D." She's living in fantasy land and has NO REASON to change. Why should she give up on OM when she's got him making her feel so great about herself, and you taking care of all her material needs? In fact, you are still feeding her emotionally, too. I think that to detach, you do need to go dimmer, while still being compassionate when you are together. That's the point I'm at now (mostly) and I feel a lot better.
Thirdly, she does not have good boundaries. I know I'm really into this lately b/c I need to work on it myself. But if she tells you that she felt responsible for your happiness, it's b/c she had/has an unhealthy image of what marriage is. It's not her responsibility; it's yours. I know that YOU know that, but I'm not sure she does. Perhaps she also thinks it works vice versa, in which case she'll never be happy.
I hope you have a good session today.
N
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
Quote: When I read that post to me, I realized that what I was missing, and what you may be missing is that to detach is not to distance or put walls up. I truly thought it was. I thought it was getting out of the house, going into another room, etc. What it is, is not reacting to the same stimuli that cause you pain.... By not reacting, I mean you can CHOOSE to be closer to her if she wants to be close to you, but you don't just do it because you think it's the right thing to do.
Yes, I have read that too. I guess I can balance it out by being less available than I have been but not try 'drastically' cut communications. It's the 'choose not to react' that is HARD since it's 'automatic' due to insecurities. LIke I said in past posts, I'm coming from COMPLETELY DOWN but having an intact (but not healthy) marriage to where I am now, picking myself up from being down AND dealing with this stuff. It's hard to maintain for as long as I have. Something had to give.
Quote: Oh, and one other thing, if it were me, and I was trying to ease off on the attachment thing, I would immediately stop snooping into her email, phone and IMs.
I did stop after last week's 'revitalization' of the 'relationship' with OM. I learned my lesson there. I only overheard the phone call because she was talking to him as she came in the front door and I was standing there. And the 'visit' was because she told me she may need me to be 'around' that week because she had some possible plans.
Not having to 'feel responsible' for my feelings, depression or anything about me is very 'freeing' for her. And she often reconnects with the hurts she felt and that makes her feel better too.
I have told you my situation with my alcoholic H, and you, having persepective from that side of the aisle, have given me wonderful feedback on what my H may be thinking, how to handle him, etc. Let me give you a little perspective now on what W may be thinking...
For 3 years (or was it 5?) you said you would lose yourself to drinking. From what it sounds, your W, like myself, felt for those 3-5 years that she was responsiable for how you were feeling, at the expense of herself and her happiness. She felt controlled by your drinking. That's an awfully long time to feel like that and silently suffer alone.
It sounds that at some point she realized she is not responsiable for your happiness; that she is only responsiable for her own. It sounds like she started thinking about activites which would make her happy (lomi message, going into busiess for herself). It's the whole detaching process that is advocated for family members of alcoholics. It sounds like she took it to heart and started to detach herself from your unhappiness. She began to gain confidence and self-esteem.
I can relate, b/c, in begining that process now, it is very freeing for me as well.
I don't think you can begrudge her that. It's awful taxing emotionally to feel responsiable for another's happiness for that length of time. If she reconnects to that hurt, it's only to remind herself that she nevers wants to be back in that lonely place again.
You have said she doubts your changes are real. You have to give her more time to gain trust in you again, to believe you aren't going to regress, that she won't be put back into a situation in which she was so unhappy, for so long. She was unhappy for 3-5 years. If she was feeling like she as for that long,you can't expect that she will just automatically believe in you and trust your changes are genuine in 3 months time. I would say you are looking at more of a 6-12 month time frame- if your changes stick and you truly detach. You can get through it, but you have to be patient if you truly want to change and have a better R with W. Realize you are on her timetable now, not yours.
As for the OM- From what you have described, it clearly will not last. He is just a symptom of her unhappiness with the past. Right now, anything probably looks better to her than what she went through with you. Once she gains more confidence with you, I am sure he will drop out of the picture, and, with more time, she will begin to believe in a R and a future with you in it. She is not involved with OM to hurt you; realize just as much as this is "your" journey back into a healthy R, this is "her" journey to re-forming an identity for herself. She just can't be there for you right now, no matter how much you want her to be. If she gave up on her needs now, she would only resent you and become even more unhappy, and perhaps even leave, no matter the consequences.
In think you have gotten some good advice from TMU regarding detaching, so I won't touch more on whether or not feign indifference. But I would try to rememeber she has told you that when you did show indifference in the past, it hurt her. She is clearly telling you something. If you feign indifference now, is it to benefit the R, or to benefit you? And if you are doing it to protect yourself, that implies you are putting up walls, which is an inherent block to any relationship recovery in process.
I really do think it would do a world of good if you stopped obsessing about the R with the OM. I am begining to do that, and honestly, I feel a whole lot better, not only about myself, but about my opinion of my H as well. I see our interactions for what they are, and not veiled by thoughts/assumptions/suspicions about the A...
Anyways, I hope I didn't come off to harsh. Just sounds like you need some firm words today instead some touchy-feely stuff...
Let us know whay you decide to do.
PetiteFlower
PetiteFlower
Quote: Follow Your Bliss
~Joseph Campbell
Quote: I don't know if this is good advice or not(!), but I think that you are doing too much for her: the photos, the website, letting her think you'll go on family vacations together after D...ain't gonna happen.
The photos were a minor thing, 10 minutes of snapshots while we were at the beach anyway. Posting to the website was 5 minutes. I built her website a couple years ago so all I did was update one picture. The family vacations thing is a little complicated. Since we are living together for up to a year until she has money to suport herself and pay for her part of the divorce proceedings she has been suggesting things we can all do together in the next several months. The 'after the divorce' seems to her to be a natural continuation of this stuff - to her. I will have to squash that somehow.
Counselor believes that since she IS suggesting family things to do she DOES want to see what I do during these activities that is different than before, and how she feels during them. It's like in her heart she really doesn't believe that OM will work out and she does still want the family but doesn't trust that I will change for good.
The fact that she decided OM relationship was 'over' last week and was depressed about it kind of shows that about her. Once he called her and spent an hour on the phone she lost (or ignored) those insecurities and wnet right back to him.
Quote: And why are you helping her with the business? Are you just helping by letting her live in the house, or will you invest? I don't want to sound like a b*tch, but I don't think you should invest any money in it: "Sorry, W, but I'm going to need my $ to get set up again after the D."
I have told her I am only doing the following for her in her business:
-- I will not make her pay her full share of the home utility bills for 3 months.
-- I will not give her money. I did tell her it was because I have to be prepared to pay alimony and support two households due to divorce.
-- I will help her to LEARN how to use the software or other tools on the computer, or listen to her questions about running her business and give advice.
She doesn't ask for much as her business is pretty simple. And since OM is in a similar business she can ask him I'm sure.
Quote: She's living in fantasy land and has NO REASON to change. Why should she give up on OM when she's got him making her feel so great about herself, and you taking care of all her material needs?
Yes, the "material needs" part is tough. She does not have access to our (my) money any longer but food and housing is paid for. She is supposed to pay half the utilities and can't afford to, but will pay as much as she can, so she will be broke most of the time. These are things she has agreed to and is honoring.
Counselor said to me that her biggest problem is self esteem and being able to function independent of a man. W knows she has a great opportunity to 'get on her feet' so to speak while still living in the family home. C told me that she believes that eventually OM will be gone and W will see that the family and the support has been there all along, and that she didn't HAVE to leave the marriage to be independent. But, she does have to 'do it herself'. I help her to a certain extent but she will stay broke for a while because she can barely make the utilities and she can't pay for half the kids expenses at all.
The other choice is to make her leave and learn the hard cold lessons of life. But that won't help her to really grow at all and get some successes under her belt. It will also hurt the kids to break us apart right now and to see their mom like that.
She needs to grow. If she doesn't then there will never be a chance for us together. That's the number 1 reason I stayed down and depressed and she didn't help. She simply didn't have it in her. Even if she doesn't find her way back to me she still needs this.
I'm doing the least I can do for her, requiring her to honor her responsibilites to the home as best she can and trying to be a safety net without looking like one. In many ways I feel I owe her that much regardless of the outcome. I hurt her a lot.
Quote: In fact, you are still feeding her emotionally, too. I think that to detach, you do need to go dimmer, while still being compassionate when you are together.
And that is the hardest thing for me right now. MY emotional needs are not being met by anyone AND I'm picking myself up from being so down there was no other way to go BUT up. It's just overwhelming me right now. I will go 'dimmer' as best I can while still living in the same house. It's a hard thing to balance when you live together.
Quote: Thirdly, she does not have good boundaries. I know I'm really into this lately b/c I need to work on it myself. But if she tells you that she felt responsible for your happiness, it's b/c she had/has an unhealthy image of what marriage is. It's not her responsibility; it's yours. I know that YOU know that, but I'm not sure she does. Perhaps she also thinks it works vice versa, in which case she'll never be happy.
That is the underlying problem with out marriage. When I was STRONG she was happy. When I was down she was down. When SHE was down, I brought her back up. When I was down she didn't bring me back up.
No matter how you look at it, OM is 'bringing her up' by positive interactions. She is still getting it from an external source and she KNOWS it. Counselor has worked to help her see that and she was seeing it last week - until he revitalized the fading relationship and she let him lift her up again.
My biggest problem is getting emotionally OUT of this whole mess. As you can no doubt see from my post, my LOGICAL mind is fine and can rationalize anything that is going on. My EMOTIONAL mind is NOT fine and takes me into all kinds of fearful places and hurtful thoughts. If I can stay in my logical mind I'd be fine. But I'm not doing it just yet.
Today has been a good day of advice (can't you feel the doom in the air...lol) for all of us. I hope it continues. I am looking for something else to post on my thread just so I can get some more great feedback!
I really like what you said, especially the part about the OM being her journey like this is for us. It applies specifically to Frank but of course we can all benefit.
Thank you.
Have you read "Feeling Good" by David Burns? It's about CBT (cognitive behaviour therapy). It is all about taking your emotional thoughts and applying logic to them. It works well for me. I found the workbook to be better than the original book.
Essentially, you take your feelings, write them down and then argue with them, which is what you do here on the board. I'm sure it makes you feel better, doesn't it? It's our emotional minds that make us crazy, the stories we tell ourselves, not (usually) reality. This is a problem for me, too, and I'm working hard on it.
Here's a quote from Mark Twain that really resonates with me: "I've been through many terrible things in my life...and some of them actually happened."
Nicola
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
