The slow walk home 3

[Becca1975]

I think this is awesome. I can kind of put myself into your W's way of thinking, re: a business. She wants to own a business. She doesn't have the self confidence to think she can do it on her own. OM offered her a way. She got all excited because it was a way to make the dream come true. Then you offered her a BETTER way. Now who is making her dream come true? With your help, she can do it on her OWN and there is no way in heck she would want to have someone else (him) helping her if she can be convinced she can do it on her own, without him. He is nothing but a means to her. A way to make her dream come true. Once you take that away from him, he is powerless. Get her all kinds of excited about the new business and she is yours. Support her however you can, don't try to run it for her, let her make her own business mistakes. Make suggestions of course, but leave the control to her and back off pleasantly if she does not take your advice. It is a learning process.

Good work!

[frank_D]

Now who is making her dream come true? With your help, she can do it on her OWN and there is no way in heck she would want to have someone else (him) helping her if she can be convinced she can do it on her own, without him. He is nothing but a means to her. A way to make her dream come true. Once you take that away from him, he is powerless.

I can agree with you in principle, there is still the 'in love' part and the 'dream of working in the same business with your spiritual lover' part. She may think this is a way to get him here sooner, who knows?

She and I talked more about the opportunity this morning. She is starting to think about the other expenses she will have to come up with to 'get started' but she's pretty excited so far, and nervous. I KNOW she has talked to OM about it so I'm sure he's all excited for her, probably being SO supportive and excited for her unlike ME who is supportive and actually proud of her, and helping her. But he's her lover and she wants that validation so she can continue to believe they are truly in love.

She told me that Counselor had told her that it's better for her to do the things she needs to do to get her self able to support herself while living under this roof (which I knew, and is part of the attempt by C and I to get her to see we are better TOGETHER). That seems to make her feel like she is 'safe' to take the risk, but she's still a little scared she said. I reminded her of when I started the last company I had, 10 years ago, she and I did invoices in our bedroom and I told her I was scared then too but I knew I could do it.

I think she never knew I was scared then and I told her that I was fearful I couldn't support the family then. Maybe it made her think about what I HAVE done that's good.

I wonder if she will ever 'get' that it's US TOGETHER that is making this possible. If she really was 'on her own' it wouldn't happen. I'm not going to say that to her though. I just hope she sees it eventually. But OM is still the 'romance novel' relationship and it's filling her empty space. God I wish he had really faded out.

We're going camping today. It was a spur of the moment decision last nite by D15 and W. They asked me what I though t and I gave them the lowdown on our cold weather equipment and that it wouldn't be a good idea BUT we could rent a Tent Trailer and go and have fun! The 'old me' would have stopped at 'it will be too cold'. Another 180.

I had to run around to rent the trailer, get light cables and stuff so I hope she recognizes the effort!

So, another 'family' outing together like the 'kayak' adventure last weekend. For a soon to be divorced family we are starting to do a lot more 'all the family together' stuff. Maybe it's just a coincidence.

I'm still in a little depression about the return of OM. It's just going to be the way it is. I would like to put a lot of hope into Counselors 'claim' that I should not give up, that she would see some change in 3 more weeks because C is making progress. I am so afraid to hope again.

Well, off I go. Be back online Sunday afternoon.

[frank_D]

AmyC:
My H did something similar for me and the wings he gave me
- ultimately started my heart on the road back home.

See, first, he had to let me GO.

How did it start you on the way back home?

Amy, I know I did the right thing, I see here excitment and fears and I so want her to be happy and find a measure of success on her own. She would be so much stronger then.

I hate to say "I'm scared she won't need me" because I don't want her to 'need' me, I want her to 'want' me. I just see so many barriers to her ever 'falling in love' with me again. So much hurt. OM making her feel good. I try to console myself with the thought that I AM doing good karmic work here, and that it will repay the hurt I helped cause.

I try and try to 'let her go' but she's HERE and we get along and it's so dam hard. Sigh.

[hopefloats7]

frank,

You are quite amazing. You definitely did the right thing by offering up a way your wife can do the massage therapy. If it works out, and it sounds like it will, she is going to start feeling a lot better about herself, and I'll bet you see bigger changes for the better in her. I seriously doubt OM is coming to join her in this business. In a way, YOU are helping her open the LOMI massage therapy, not OM!
I know you have reservations about what you did, but I seriously believe you did a wonderful thing. She will grealy appreciate it, too.

[frank_D]

Back from camping.

This is sort of out of order, I want to post about our camping trip, but this just happened and I wanted to get it out while it was sort of 'fresh'.

W said she 'caught' D15 and her boyfriend 'making out' in our house, kissing intensely I guess. We were talking about what to say to them about it when W says sort of half jokingly:

"It really bothers me to watch because I'm not getting any!".

I kind of felt a knife go through my heart. I froze, and just couldn't say anything. She saw that and kind of looked at me with a WTF kind of look. I started to walk away and then I came back and said: "You're comment about 'not getting any' really hurt me." (I was thinking how unhappy she is she can't get to OM to 'get some'. I hope she thought so too)

She replies: "I'm sorry, I guess I was talking to you like you were a girlfriend or something and I shouldn't have said that". I think I said 'ok' or something. Then I walked away. But I was still fuming a little. I came back and stood in front of her and said "It STILL hurts you know. What you're DOING, it still hurts me." I think she said she was sorry, I really don't remember. She kind of stood there with a "I don't know what to say" look on her face. Not quite blank, a little nervous but that's it. I didn't SAY 'with OM' because kids might have heard but I hope she THOUGHT that.

I stood there for a few seconds, thinking if there was more I wanted to say. But I didn't. I turned around and went to my room to take a shower. I've been here since then.

My only comment is I so want to tell her to f*ck off, get out, get on a plane and go to OM and don't come back, but OM doesn't seem to have his own place right now. (note: OM called her today from a different phone number, I think it's MOM's house which he said in e-mail he was going to go live with her because he's fighting too much with Ex GF he is living with. OM is 39. Just speculation. Who cares.) Of course he is still promising to move here / visit here / whatever. Maybe they have arranged something, she seems a lot happier the past couple days.

Oh, now she just told me she's going for a walk around the block (hint: to call OM on cell phone). She comes back 5 minutes later and tells me it's 'too cold'. It's 59 and very windy. Could be true, but most likely OM wasn't home. I mention that it didn't seem that cold and she kind of says that it is, in a defensive way. Whatever.

Feel free to post replies telling me what a self centered B*tch she is. She wants what she wants, and it isn't me.

[frank_D]

ok, here is my long story. It isn't really good but I learned something. I really do need to let go, give up, something. It's killing me because I am fighting the depression and losing W to OM and huge projects all at the same time.

Anyway, I'd like comments if you have em. But please don't give me 'rah rah rah! go team go!' comments. Just keep it real, ok? Thanks

We went camping at a nearby campground by the beach. I rented a tent trailer so we'd be more comfortable. After I came home Saturday afternoon and packed everything all up W came home. She was on her cell and I could tell it was OM. She was talking to him about what it took for her to get a massage license around here. I only caught a few sentences but I figured it was so he'd know what he'd have to do if he was coming. Anyway her 'happy' tone of voice and the topic hit me hard. Here we were planning a 'family' trip and she's getting her fix from OM, and that's really why she's happy as we drive to the campgrounds.

She has this way she talks - like she's in a little cloud - when she's 'up' on OM fixes.

So, I'm sorry to say but I feel like crap the rest of the day.

I talk to her along the way about her business ideas and how can she make it, what kind of competition is there around here for clients and stuff like that. She say's she expects it to take her 3-6 months to get to the income level she thinks she needs. That you have to really put yourself out there and work at it. So, this gives me some comfort level that it won't be easy for OM to come here and make $$ and she will barely make it but I do wish her luck. I help her go through a few scenarios and what the Upside and Downside's are. And I say that she's got a great situation because she can do this while we're still in our current living situation. She agrees that that is the only reason she CAN try this.

So, I look at her and smile and say "In your whole life Lorri, you'll never have another friend like me". She won't either. Who else would do this?

Anyway, it's all I can do right now to not come across as depressed but I AM depressed. I'm still not over the call I overheard. It is a trigger for me. I also have been frozen in hurt and fear the past few days so I am way behind in some of my projects.

We set up our camp (it was sunset), and I put on a cheery face and didn't get mad over anything. Overall we had a pleasant time making dinner and eating.

Then we all walked to the beach. Beautiful starry nite and D15's Boyfriend was with us so they were hugging and looking at the stars. W and I stood next to each other and talked about nothing really. I could see she was uncomfortable and so was I. She walked away for a few minutes. Then I went and joined her and the kids. We walked back to the campground to make "s'mores" on the fire.

I knew she could tell I was depressed but trying hard, so I though I would talk to her about some things. I basically told her that I was having trouble with some of my projects and they were weighing heavy on my mind. She said that maybe taking time to camp wasn't the best idea if I needed work time and I said "This is ALWAYS more important...time with the family."

Anyway, I was so down. Even though we talked and joked some she still had that 'in a cloud' voice and attitude. I've known her for 20 years, I can tell when she's "here". And I know she could feel my pain, but she didn't really seem to care.

I went for a walk alone around the campground so I could find a quiet place to cry, and I did. When we got into our spots for bedtime in the camper we were all joking and laughing and making fun of each other so it was very nice. At one point W and D15, who were sleeping together, were jokingly pushing each other around and I said "don't make me come over there!" and of course I had to and 'keep them apart' which was funny and fun. So it wasn't a total depression.

I didn't sleep at all. I usually can sleep but I hurt so much.

Today we got up and I was a little cranky till I got my coffee. I was feeling VERY uncomfortable and I spoke to W when we were alone. I said "I'm sorry if I'm being a little down or depressing, I hope you aren't feeling uncomfortable."

She says: "That's one of your problems, you worry about what other people are thinking and get your self esteem that way". I said: "I'm sorry I am just trying to clear things so you don't think I have any issues with you today, I'm just in the place I'm at'

She says: "I understand, I used to have to fix you all the time but now that I'm not married to it, it doesn't bother me".

Well. I tell her she didn't have to FIX me, I could fix myself these past few years, I just didn't because it was too overwhelming at the time. Anyway we get into a conversation AGAIN about how she 'tried' and I didn't try and blah blah blah. The end result is a stalemate. Nobody is pissed off, it's just a rehash of the same old stuff. We stop the conversation on a neutral or slightly positive note and get the kids and walk to the beach for a picnic.

At the beach she asks me to take some pictures of her for her massage business website, her current ones are a couple years old and she has changed a lot. She has mentioned this several times. She needs some head shots. So I do, I take quite a few and I'm thinking about how she will send some to OM. But I do it anyway. After she picks the ones she wants she will of course ask me to update the website for her. Joy.

So we go to the beach. We talk small talk. Along the way she says 'Next time we do this we should do x y z...' And I say jokingly 'what makes you think I'll do this with you again?' and she says 'Oh, you'd invite me if you decided to take the girls camping' I say "Most likely YOU will want to go and you'll call ME". We have a laugh and I'm thinking how much I hate the 'future talk' she does of all the wonderful family trips we'll take (Disney World during spring break maybe, camping, etc...) because we will be such FRIENDS and great CO-Parents who get along so well! I know Counselor said the fact that she is talking about family trips is a positive, but I can't really see it that way. It's just another chance for her to have her cake and eat it too.

So, I got a strong message today: too much of my self esteem was coming from her. I know she had been wishing for at least the past 3 years that she could get out of our marriage, that someone would come along to save her (her diaries say that from 2002). That she loved me really, up until the last day before she dropped me for OM and 'freedom'. I know, I felt it.

That when she thought OM didn't want her any more last week, she made comments to me REMINDING me that she didn't want to be 'married', that she couldn't go back to living like that. It was weird that she felt she had to make a point of telling me this at that time.

She knows she has an empty place in her heart she has to fill herself. Till OM got back on board and filled it right up again for her.

As time goes on, I am changing, I don't drink, I don't lose my temper, things that used to make me mad don't any more. I spend tons of quality time with the kids. She has the opportunity to start her business while she's in a safe place. I know she sees these things.

But, she really doesn't want me. She really doesn't. She plays around with me because I'm here. Just a roommate. OM calls her and she is happy again. She dreams of the day she can be with him again. And I truly believe that OM will make good on his promise and they will be together out here eventually. I know everyone ELSE doesn't think so, but I do. It's my gut feeling. Or maybe a fear.

She has gone emotionally. And I DID get too much of my own 'self worth' from our old relationship. But I was DEPRESSED. It doesn't matter though. She wore herself out with me. I just don't see it ever working with us. I just don't.

I have to unplug, move on, get out, something. I worry the only reason I DB is because I NEED her. I try to look at her and convince myself she's not that great - she isn't 'great' but she has a wonderful side that I don't get to see any more. And I love her.

I WISH my Counselor would not be so confident in herself and her understanding of human nature to where she said to me 'give me 3 more weeks before you give up'. I don't want to. But I have to or I'll never forgive myself. And C is has a very special gift that makes me trust that she will do the best that can be done for us. And she does have BOTH of our welfare at heart.

I know I'm supposed to work on building a 'relationship' of some sort while we are living together, but I really just want to withdraw, go 'gray', whatever.

Right now I wish someone could tell me for sure it's over forever and I should move on.

[grasshopper]

Frank,

I won't ra ra ra you at all. I started to say this the last time you said something like this but stopped. I will say it now. You are a man of steel to have done this for so long. If I am still doing it that long, someone please shoot me.
I don't mean to suggest you give up, but I am suggesting that your feelings about that seem perfectly natural for someone who's put so much into this.
I think, from following your sitch, that your drinking and depression takes the place of children for most of us as the reason you stick it out. It's like you owe it to her, or yourself to suffer for her the way she suffered for you. Hell, I don't think that, you said that.
I know for me, my love for my beautiful, intelligent, witty, loving (used to) wife will not go away. My kids devastation will only be a factor for so long before I realize that they are probably being done more harm than good living like this.
What I am saying is that you seem to be coming out of your own fog of the need to atone for you sins toward your wife. I know you are not there yet because your tone still sounds like one of somebody willing to stay on the cross for a few more days while the crows peck at your flesh.
If anyone here has the strength, I think it's you, but some day, maybe after that 3 months the C wants of you, it may be time to come down and walk again.
Today is not that day.

TMU

[shark]

Frank,

This might help, it might not. But here it goes. It’s going to be long, so I hope this helps.

Do you remember where you were when you watched 911 on the TV? I do. I was standing next to my wife while we watched. We said nothing to each other. That is how catastrophic that was; you could not even say a word. Well did you know that for 6 months give or take a month or so that divorce filings fell more than any other time in history and that divorces that were in the six month period fell out at the same rate?

You SHOULD now this better than I, that when things like that happen (i.e. Loss of life or economic calamity) it makes people view life differently.

So here is my point. What would happen if God forbid something happen to you or suddenly the world changed in a big way? I think OM would be gone and your marriage would be on a different track. You might ask where am I going with this?

You need to spend some time on some TRUE economic websites to get a TRUE understanding of what is taking place around the globe and in this country. What happens when people get materialistic? They start to abuse things, they take things for granted, they stop showing TRUE character, family does not mean as much as personal gain, selfishness and on and on.

This country is going to get CHECKED in a HUGE way and it’s starting NOW and has been brewing for 20 years. I can’t go into because well if you don’t see my point and you watch CNBS and read the WJ or LAT and you are like my family (Wife’s Family) you'll get bored and just blow me off and say that’s ridiculous. Of course without asking for proof or debate, but that’s another story. I’ll come back to this in a minute.

If you read the last page of my posts you'll see me give up and come back. I THINK I am at a point now where I understand what my wife is doing and what I need to do. I know my wife and I believe I got her number. Her calls are her trying to stay connected and at her own pace she is connecting. All I have to do is be there to get the call. But yes there could always be something I missed and the other shoe will drop. But two of the most important things I think about are:

1. I can’t make my wife love me, I can’t
2. Guys like me are VERY, VERY hard to find.

So back to the financial point

There are many reasons why somebody loves somebody. Probably too many to list here today but I’ll tell you this. When the United States economy sinks into recession with high interest rates, high gas prices at the pump, declining assets values, and on and on. Oh, and by the way you don’t have to go very far, just look at the 2 yr vs the 10 yr bond to get an idea. INVERTED. I could tell a story that would scare the crap out of you. That is not my point here right now. It’s to tell you that if you look at the big picture you are the most stable thing in her life and she will run back to you when the sh*t hits the fan. And it will Frank, turn OFF the TV and read. Don’t know where to read ask me, I’ll tell you.

Now if you know this already and I hope you do. I thought I would bring it to your attention so you could remember it. What is the difference between your wife seeing what an idiot this OM is and a financial reckoning day for the United States. Neither one of them guarantees a good marriage after she comes back. But I’ll tell you this, they both will wake her up. Now I can only guarantee one thing. The Day of Reckoning is coming. Period. I just can’t tell you when.

But you do know how long your going to live in the house with your wife. Set that time frame, keep DB’ing and then on that final day move on. Very, Very few men could do what you are doing Frank. Kids or not, when you bring another M or W into the picture you Sh*t on the vows you took. Take this idea:

Would you have married your wife if she told you that she was going to have an A sometime around your 15th year of marriage and could not tell you if it would end your marriage or not?

I am sure I know your answer.

So, this OM is a total DI*K. Here are some of things I would be saying if I were having an A with your wife.

1. How much money are you making.
2. Well here is what I am making.
3. Were will we live
4. What about the kids
5. How is Frank taking this
6. what does he say
7. What about your kids, are they sad mad what?
8. What has your family said, do they support you
9. How much money will frank give you
10. have you filed paperwork and if not why
11. When are you going to move out if at all
12. Do you want more kids
13. Could you move out here or are the kids keeping you there
14. Is there anybody else you are seeing in CA

I could think of more but hey I am not a total piece a SH*T Just a controlling one, who is trying to change. J So really what is this guy about. He does not seam to credible to me. High school [censored]. I know this opinion does not help your heart but I am on the outside looking in.

Now he is not saying any of these. So what the Fu*k. Stay the course follow your C. You have come this far why change now. Get your Balance Sheet in stellar order (your going to need it) and wait for this DI*K to show exactly what HE does not have. Only a TOTAL PUS*Y, who has no money, no self-esteem, no goals, no character would enter into another mans territory. This is not Rah, Rah.

Sh*T frank if my wife even hints that she is going to date. She will get served within 5 days. Done. And I think she would do the same to me. Believe me, another dog J right now would be cool. It would screw me up big time but hey my heart and you know what would feel a lot better. So I CHOOSE to stay committed and faithful no matter what the alien does. And so should you. I hate it when people say this to me. Trust me. But IF it does not work out, wouldn’t you want to FEEL in your heart that you did EVERYTHING you could. Those kinds of people are rare; I am trying to be one of them.

So just to re-cap. I am not sure if I bounced around:

1. Hardship is coming that everybody born from 1960 till present has never seen nor been thru. Don’t lie to yourself it IS coming. And this joker will show his true colors. (i.e. Non-reporting M3 / Bourse)

2. You have been this far, set the timeframe based on what your C says and follow it. Stay the course. If you stop and go the other way you will have wasted your time. I now you don’t want to do that.

3. Obviously don’t file D let your wife do it and know that a day is coming that will wake her up to the truer things in life. But just know it yourself and don’t bother her with it.

I can only hope this was constructive as I am only trying to give you what you have given me.

My understanding of the financial world helps me keep my goals, helps me understand the decisions I have made which in fact has put me where I am today. Closing my business down and selling my house put me where I am at today. 100% true. I know, I know, but I love my wife and I accept her 100%. I was kind of kidding when I told my wife I would divorce her to get the house sold. But here I am and I am VERY happy with the financial decisions I have made. And I know one day she will respect for the very tough decisions I had to make. I only hope she will be my wife when she realizes it. And with this I make a point.

“We always hurt the ones we love first. I hurt my wife she is hurting me. You hurt your wife now she is hurting you”

I wonder if PayBack is a word in your C dictionary? Or maybe its just a word in the dictionary of the subconscious mind.

Well I hope I helped somewhat.

Marty

[frank_D]

you seem to be coming out of your own fog of the need to atone for you sins toward your wife. I know you are not there yet because your tone still sounds like one of somebody willing to stay on the cross for a few more days while the crows peck at your flesh.

Well now that you SAID it I can't ignore it. I think I have atoned for my sins quite well. She hasn't atoned for hers, but she doesn't think she has any.

Regardless, I see your point. What's done is done,the past is the past. Now, The present and future are all that matters. So, what the hey do I do?

If anyone here has the strength, I think it's you, but some day, maybe after that 3 months the C wants of you, it may be time to come down and walk again.
Today is not that day.

Yeah, I don't want to suffer beyond that time. But more to the point, I'm supposed to be on track in mt businesses. AND here's the kicker for me. The massage / Lomi biz W wants to start could easily be grown like she wants to do it in a lot less time - if I help her run the business. If she let me do that, it would be good for both of us.

Patience is a virtue.

[frank_D]

Shark,

Excellent post. Yes I do know some of the economics you are talking about. Overall your analogies wer very good.I found your post to be quite useful.

So, this OM is a total DI*K. Here are some of things I would be saying if I were having an A with your wife.

1. How much money are you making.
2. Well here is what I am making.
3. Were will we live
4. What about the kids
5. How is Frank taking this
6. what does he say
7. What about your kids, are they sad mad what?
8. What has your family said, do they support you
9. How much money will frank give you
10. have you filed paperwork and if not why
11. When are you going to move out if at all
12. Do you want more kids
13. Could you move out here or are the kids keeping you there
14. Is there anybody else you are seeing in CA

I would ask similar questions. You need to know these things to have a basis for a relationship, and to be sure that W isn't going to flake and skip ot of the relationship.

Other than 'how is frank taking this' the rest of the questions have not been asked. Just the high schoolish stuff you saw in my past posts. Although I did overhear her telling him how hard it is to get a massage license here.