Quote: Frank, we both need to get the OM and our W's off the mind. ....
Yes, how? It's hard when I live with her, sometimes we interact AS IF we were married except for the touching, hugging, and other intimacy. Sometimes she is fun, will jokingly get in my face, just inches away ... I could practically kiss her then, but of course I don't. I do play along with the joke though. It's maybe once every couple days when she is in a playful mood. They're weird moments because I sense that she is trying to keep herself from getting too close but is having fun and it's an old 'habit' coming out, kind of against her will.
The past few days though OM's 'presence' can be felt here again so she is happy and nice but keeps her distance.
Quote: The counselors you speak of, is one a DB coach and one a M counselor?
I only have one counselor. She is a counselor with all the degrees you expect, MFCC, Drug Rehab, etc. Very educated. SHe has a drug counseling center that the courts will send people to for counseling as part of their probation and has a very good success rate.
She focuses on healing the hurt in people by helping them to find the good and embrace it. She believes (as do I) that we all have our core 'gifts' of intuition, compassion, loving etc. and we have forgotten how, or chosen not to use them.
Which is why we have issues with life... we're out of balance. In my case I stopped loving myself and using my intuition to protect myself from people who would use me or hurt me. Wife has similar issues.
Counselor is sort of a DB'er but she is much better because she actually knows the psychology of my wife and knows our life. And she sees W. once a week.
Counselor believes in God, and says her job is to help pick up fallen angels.
I also see a Psychologist once a month for anti depressents. MOstly was on them to counteract years of depression. I only see her for 15 minutes as she knows I have a good counselor and she'll give me some quick insights from her experiences while I'm there. She is NOT a DB'er with WAW's because I think she has worked with so many who just leave that she has no patience with them.
Quote: I am with you man, except my wife is already in business with the OP. To top it off it is about a block from my office......We will both hang in there as long as it takes. Okay?
I feel for you. In so many ways I feel like I shouldn't be complaining because a lot of others have much worse situations where they have to witness the adultery daily or on weekends. I know that if or when that happens here, I will have to have her move out because it will be too painful. I'd probably do a better job of coping if I wasn't also getting through depression, stopping drinking and job pressure all at the same time this is going on.
Yes, I will hang in there as long as it takes. Thank you for your support!
This is a tough one to relate. I was just given a test tonite. It was one of the hardest ones yet because it was about CONTROL.
Background: The other day when W had her experience with the 'brownies' and was freaked out, it was, as my counselor (and AmyC) said, a 'divine intervention' because the event set up a situation for us both to see what it was like to be the other person during the bad times in our marriage. I was the caretaker, and she was the messed up one. It opened our eyes and we both really felt the other ones hurt when we discussed it in our respective therapy sessions that week.
ok, so todays test.
W goes to her salon to get hair done. This is her 8 week 'do' and I was panicked it was so she could look nice because OM was coming out, but it looks like I was panicked for nothing.
She comes home, comes into my office. I notice her hair and complement her!
W: can I ask you for some advice? Me: ok W: Well, at the salon I go to they have a room they rent out to massage therapists. Right now they don't have one and it's available. Also, they sold a bunch of gift certificates over xmas and there's nobody to do them. It's $1,000 per month rent But THEY refer clients to you and they are a pretty classy salon. They told me they could keep me really busy and then I wouldn't have to bring clients to our house any more. Maybe I could get a real bed! (she has to sleep on a fold up bed because she sleeps in the massage room).
Me: How many new clients would you need to make $1,000?
W: well, about 10.
Me: OK, then they would have to refer you at least 2-3 per week to break even, and you get the space for other uses?
W: Yes, but breaking even isn't going to be good enough to justify it, I'll need twice that number of clients to get ahead.
Me: Yeah, you already can't pay your half of the bills like we agreed...
W: Yeah, I know. Maybe it's a bad idea. (looks sad)
Me: well, could you do LOMI massage there? You charge twice as much for that and you'll pretty much be the only one in the area who does it.
W: Oh yeah, the room is plenty big and quiet too.
(We do talk about the potential, a long discussion on pricing, what kind of clientelle do they have, economics etc... I just am not going to bother with it here. Suffice it to say that it COULD be done - by someone who has a little business savvy)
Me: Well, isn't that one of your goals, to be a Lomi massage practitioner? This could be the chance to start your business that you've been wanting to start.
(note: OM keeps promising to move out here so they can start this Lomi business 'together' and she replies that she is looking forward to it)
W: Yeah, but it's a lot of money and what if it doesn't work out?
Me: How will you know if you don't try? I have always had faith in you and I think this opportunity has been presented to you right now, when you NEEDED it because you have set an intention to have your own Lomi Massage business.
W: Yeah, it is a weird coincidence. I'm not sure what to do.
Me: Well, if you do it you won't be able to pay your share of the bills....
W: Yeah, I thought of that, that's why I don't think I should do it right now, I need a sure source of money.
Me: Well, you could owe me for your half till you get the business going...
W: No I don't want to build up debt. I guess I'll just not do it. Unless they will let me pay them rent later or something... I don't know. It's probably just bad timing right now.
Me: Well, let me think about what you could do to make it work....
So, I take a minute to think about this.
Counselor has told me that W needs to prove to herself that she can be independent. She needs to either succeed or fail but do it on her own. Up till now her self esteem has been (and, I think still is) based on having a man in her life who gives her that piece that is missing from her heart - her lack of real love for herself, confidence and assertiveness. W KNOWS she needs to work on this.
So, here is an opportunity to do just that.... except....She can't afford to do it AND pay her half of the bills. I can. She can't. Life is tough. She isn't going to ask for anything from me because she knows it isn't right and she says so. She's asking me whether or not I think she COULD make enough money to pay all her share of the bills and the rent on the place, hoping that the referrals she gets will fill the gap and more.
Remember, OM says he wants to come out here, be in a business with her doing just this kind of thing. He claims he's going to have all kinds of money in the near future (which I doubt) and he loves her, wants a relationship and to share her dream of starting a Lomi massage business. I know their 'relationship' is at best infatuation, at worst he is manipulating her. If she succeeds at this business he COULD come out sooner because she has a business already working so he would have a job with her, be able to start a relationship, everything she says she wants in her 'dream life'. It's all the bliss she is wishing for, isn't it?
So. I'm sitting here at that moment thinking about all that. I have secretly felt 'safe' knowing that neither he nor she are as capable as I am to make enough money to start the business she wants, and he claims to want, so they can be together, have a relationship, whatever, in my part of the country. All I have to do is wait. The Affair will burn out eventually (I hope).
So, what do I do?
I can:
1) Tell her she probably should focus on reality, not dreams. She has real financial issues and this is risk. It's no longer my job to cover her, she is getting a divorce, remember? She HAS to be able to pay her half of the bills. Tough. That's life in the real world. Sometimes you have to put off things to deal with reality. I had to when I was starting out...
2) Find a way to help her while still allowing her to keep her dignity so she doesn't think I am paying for her, which she cannot accept under the circumstances.
If I do (1) She stays weak, OM has to come through and the odds are he won't. Good for ME and the marriage, right?
If I do (2) She gets her chance to follow her dream NOW. It's still hard work ahead but she can do it. I have faith. BUT I risk that if she is a success or at least able to keep it going, OM will show up for sure and I'm screwed.
I have 60 seconds to say something. I'm scared to death inside. I do my best to empty my mind and connect with God or the universe or whatever you want to call it to know what is 'right' to do. I keep smiling of course.
So, I say:
Why don't you offer them a little less the first month, and negotiate a minimum number of referrals THE FIRST MONTH so they have to show you they really can sustain at least a break even situation. I'm sure they will do that since they already have customers with gift certificates out there.
And, because I REALLY BELIEVE IN YOU and I think in the long run, you'll make more money and be able to pay your share easily when you make this work, why don't you just pay whatever part of the bills you can afford for the next 3 months. I"m not 'giving' you anything, I'm just removing an obstacle that would slow you down, ok?
She says: That sounds ok. I need to think about it because it's a big move for me. Thanks for your advice and offer. (she seems happier but nervous)
She walks to the door and I say "W, I just want you to know I'm really proud of you. It takes a lot of courage to do this. I'm really proud of you. As a friend. (I am being as sincere as I can, because I AM proud of her). She thanks me and smiles.
Now I'm sitting here thinking WHAT HAVE I DONE? I've told W I will help her to do something that will give her the ability to live on her own SOONER, be with OM if she wants to, and he really comes out here, and be able to really afford to get a divorce! Sh*t! Sh*t! Sh*t!
So, I'm shaking a little, crying a little and call my friend Brian. Tell him the story. Ask Brian: Am I just crazy? Did I do the right thing? Shouldn't I have told her tough luck, it's hard to start up a business, wait till you can afford it? Am I enabling her? What?
Brian says: Dude, you did the honorable thing. You could help a friend move towards a dream and you did it regardless of how you felt. Some day you'll see a reward for that act.
I"m crying and he's quiet and I say to him "Well, I want to be Impeccable with My Word. I promised her I would help her with her business the other day. I said 'small things of course'. Well, this isn't so small, but it's the 'right' thing to do.
I don't know if she will actually do it. She's thinking about it still, deciding if she CAN do it. She SHOULD do it, this opportunity was presented to her now because now is the time. Just like the brownies incident was presented because it was the right time.
This is just getting too surreal to be believable.
And to think that she still doesn't trust me when I say that I will never again be that depressed guy who drank to feel better. If she only knew how hard it is for me to do what I'm doing.
Frank ~ You did a great thing that could turn things to your favor eventually. True the OM could end up there but I don't think so. She's not going to be doing THAT good, I don't think. Listen, she has self-esteem issues, identity issues, independence issues....you just offered her the ability to keep one foot on solid ground while she steps out with the other foot onto the slippery ice. My H did something similar for me and the wings he gave me - ultimately started my heart on the road back home.
Amy you are doing such a wonderful thing for all us lately. I just had to thank-you, and thank Frank for posting like he has with such honesty because it helps me and many of us! Sorry for jumping in!
Tim
my story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1049617&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
I know this is cliché-ish, sappy and we've all heard it before but maybe there's some truth in it...
"If you love someone, let them go. If they return to you, it was meant to be. If they don't, their love was never yours to begin with..." -Unknown
Frank, you ARE doing the RIGHT thing by helping W gain independance, and in turn self-confidence. If nothing else, she'll appreciate you for that. If she does leave you for OM (doubtful and at best short term), at least you helped her be a better person. Lotta consolation huh? You ARE doing what's best for her though and that shows you really care for her. Bravo! Keep up the EXCELLENT work Frank!
It is amazing. You go about this and I hope you see a 50 yr ann. but would you do all of this if you did not have children. I mean how far do we have to go. AmyC says my situtaion is different. Boy did I know that but its nice to hear someone say it. I thought I was crazy.
But i am not sure at this point when I read you rpost if you are DBing this at this point. It appears to me that you are enabling the w and the OM. Dont you think it might be better to let the W fall down on her face, learn a little about life and at the same time learn what an idiot this OM is. This other guy is not a Mench. You are! you are taking a higher road and this other guy is praying your wife. I don't really see it any other way.
By the way I figured you did not post for me becasue you think just like AmyC.
W and D15 went for a drive to talk about 'boys' tonite. That's two nites in a row D15 has spent time with W. I feel a little left out now! (ha!) Nah, I'm really glad they are not fighting and are finding something to share time doing. They came back and had this idea that we could just 'go camping tomorrow'. No plan, just do it. I used to do that all the time, just go somewhere. Of course it's in the 40's at nite so I talked it over with them and we're going to rent a tent trailer tomorrow and I'll take care of getting everything together. I usually would have said 'nah, too cold, no plan, we aren't ready bla bla' but I did a 180 and took their original idea and came up with a way to make it work, and keep them more comfortable than sleeping on the ground in our tents would be.
It'll be a chance to have fun as a family. Making positive memories. Gotta get em while we can.
W has been sort of 'playful' a couple times tonite. Threw her pajama top over my head as a joke when she walked by me to go to the bathroom to change. Gave me one of her 'arm punches' that she used to do all the time. she was sort of lying across two chairs in the living room and I needed to go from one side to the other, and it was no problem to go around her, she really wasn't in the way at all. But she says 'I bet I'm in the way, want me to move?' I said no, if you were in the way I would just walk over you. She says 'oh, you better not!' So I walk next to her and step over her and walk away. She jokingly says "Don't do that again!" so I step over her and SAT on her waist, then she reaches up to tickle me and I got off her (I hate to be tickled and she knows it). It was cute and fun and meaningless. I kept smiling and acting 'as if'.
Just finished watching DVD with W (Billy Elliot, good movie). She's kinda detached a little or waiting forme to do something. We both cried during the sad parts. I was kinda down but acting 'up' and I think she could tell but that's ok.
I was thinking tonite about how when we go to 'be friends' mode they think they can do stuff that is at the level of 'boyfriend playful'. If I had a friend who was a woman I would NOT do the things she was doing, that would be flirting. Our boundaries are so weird now, we want to have those 'moments' so bad that we'll let them do whatever they want to us hoping it will happen. Cripes, I wouldn't let a girl who I KNEW didn't like me act that way around me.
But it was nice, it was 'connecting' but tonite I was not in a receiving mood. The OM cycles piss me off and I wonder what she is thinking when she is 'flirty' with me. She has OM, dreams about him, is in love...
Why does she do this to me?
My theory is that they are all old habits - things we used to do under certain situations that we do again out of habit or a conditioned response.
I think tomorrow I will try an experiment. I'll set up several 'situations' where I take the opportunity to flirt with W, but then blow her off. It would be interesting to see her response.
I'm really having no exepctations from her. Since we are now in an UP cycles with the OM rollercoaster it's smarter to just lay low and wait a couple weeks for the downside to begin again. Then she becomes more 'real' again.
Quote: It is amazing. You go about this and I hope you see a 50 yr ann. but would you do all of this if you did not have children. I mean how far do we have to go. AmyC says my situtaion is different. Boy did I know that but its nice to hear someone say it. I thought I was crazy
If I didn't have children I would not try for AS LONG.
Quote: Dont you think it might be better to let the W fall down on her face, learn a little about life and at the same time learn what an idiot this OM is. This other guy is not a Mench. You are! you are taking a higher road and this other guy is praying your wife. I don't really see it any other way
Sure, I think she has every chance of falling down. But, if she takes on the 'big' job she'll learn something from it all. And if she makes her business work at all, I can't help but wonder if she'll want him around when I will have been the supportive friend, not him. Or even better he comes for a 'visit' and may starts telling how WE can do this and WE can do that. It'll just piss her off.
Quote: By the way I figured you did not post for me becasue you think just like AmyC.
SOrt of. I just didn't have anythng different to add...
Quote: It appears to me that you are enabling the w and the OM. Dont you think it might be better to let the W fall down on her face, learn a little about life and at the same time learn what an idiot this OM is.
IF he comes out here and tries to screw with her business he will not make points with her. Besides, let's say the best he can do is a plane ticket and a large carpetbag? Not the kind of person you want. He will prove himself to be an idiot in one ver fundamentla way: He willl tell her his opinions on running her business, and she will ak me the same questions. Mine will be based on experience, human nature and integrity. What will his be based on? He doesn't seem to have any real successes under his belt.
Quote: Frank ~ You did a great thing that could turn things to your favor eventually... She's not going to be doing THAT good, I don't think. Listen, she has self-esteem issues, identity issues, independence issues....you just offered her the ability to keep one foot on solid ground while she steps out with the other foot onto the slippery ice.
I remembered my counselor tellingme that several weeks ago when we were talking about her moving out. She said it was better for her to learn what she needed to do to support her own apt or house while she was stil under mine, and W saw that.
Quote: My H did something similar for me and the wings he gave me - ultimately started my heart on the road back home.
See, first, he had to let me GO.
I think it's the acts of kindness that show our true selves.
I was kinda down but acting 'up' and I think she could tell but that's ok.