Frank, I agree with your C. Stop reading the emails. So much of it is fantasy and it's having a bad influence over you.
Take the C's offer. Give her 3 more sessions with W.
I would like to add that I was really confused when I first read your post this morning. Things didn't seem that very different to me. Yet, you were having a melt down. I don't mean to make light of your feelings. I just think that reading her emails is messing with your head.
Hang in there, buddy. You can do this.
Spitfire
Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest. Mark Twain
Quote: Take the C's offer. Give her 3 more sessions with W.
Yeah, she meant that in 3 weeks if it didn't start to change then I could give up if I still want to. I will give it the time.
Quote: Things didn't seem that very different to me. Yet, you were having a melt down. I don't mean to make light of your feelings. I just think that reading her emails is messing with your head.
Well, what happened was I was so SURE it was over with OM because she said 'the relationship is gone now' when we were talking the day before. She was warming up to me that nite and I thought this was the turning point with om. SHe strted touching me more, and gave me a hug int the morning 'just because'.
It was looking GOOD.
Then, the next F*ing day OM calls her and gets her 'back on track' with the fantasy, and tells her he's going to come out here and they're going to do all the things she thinks she wants to do and she get's right back on the ILY bandwagon. And I felt so let down. I had let my hopes get up and I got destroyed.
That's what was different. I hadn't had ANY real hope since the beginning and there it was. And now it's gone again, and worse OM is telling her what she wants to hear. Maybe he means it, I don't know.
I let it hit me way too hard. I spent a couple hours with my friend on the east coast, who did a great job telling me what a scumbag this guy is and a liar and dirtbag, etc.. for about an hour. It helped. He also tells me how my W is a scumbag cheater and why don't I boot her out. Sometimes I wonder too.
I know so many others have MUCH WORSE EA/PA going on in their sitches. I probably look like a crybaby or something.
Basically, I have been holding it together for 3 months with a WAW who still lives in our home in her own room, is emotionally vacant with the kids (who are acting out and she doesn't deal with it properly) and she is obsessed with OM 3,000 miles away whom she was only able to go and screw once.
Her two best friends hate me and think OM is 'good looking' and since she's happy and NOT WITH ME they are happy to support her. Even though they like our kids and they know the kids are being hurt. They are that sick.
I am doing all this right after quitting drinking (3 months so far) on my own, getting myself out of my depression on my own, Doing intense therapy twice a week and DB'ing at home with W.
W goes through mood swings the past couple months and the kids basically are only getting quality attention from me, and they need a lot. Lately she has gotten better though.
To top it off, my job is as a contract programmer and the companies I work for are big, and they need me to design their next generation products right NOW. I work at home so I see my W all the time.
I don't have any family of my own so my only support is Counselor, My friend John in Connecticut, and Brian in L.A. and they don't always 'get it'.
Other than that I have no friends. Its a lot to cope with alone and it burns me out eventually.
I really need to go somewhere over the weekend but I don't know where and I don't have any friends to go with. Any sugetions in So Cal / Southwest?
Thanks all of you for your support. I hope I am worthy of your kindness.
You are worthy. I am in the same boat. The GAL thing is difficult because of how wrapped up in my family I became after the kids were born. I let all my friends who live near me drift away to the point where I no longer am in contact with them at all. I wish I knew of somewhere you could go, but I am in Florida so I can't help much.
Quote: Then, the next F*ing day OM calls her and gets her 'back on track' with the fantasy, and tells her he's going to come out here and they're going to do all the things she thinks she wants to do and she get's right back on the ILY bandwagon. And I felt so let down. I had let my hopes get up and I got destroyed.
Sounds like Tim and many others here. It is natural. We spend all this time doing such unnatural things like sitting back and watching our W's carry on with the OM, and then we're expected to resist the urge to run towards what seems like the brightest light in the universe after being in that dark hell for so long? I think not. The important thing is that you realize what happened and surely you learned a great deal from it. I'm pulling for you, and I hope you find somewhere to escape for a few days.
Other than that I have no friends. Its a lot to cope with alone and it burns me out eventually.
I know it's tough, Frank. You do have people on this board who care about you and are willing to listen. I know it is hard when your friends don't "get it." When going through this, we need to vent so much and sometimes they get sick of hearing it. They don't understand all the emotions that go into this process. They see that we are unhappy and they don't want us to be so they want us to "fix it" the easiest, quickest way.
Maybe getting away would be good for you. I hear Phoenix is nice.
Hang in there. You really are making progress.
Spitfire
Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest. Mark Twain
Quote: TMU: Sounds like Tim and many others here. It is natural. We spend all this time doing such unnatural things like sitting back and watching our W's carry on with the OM, and then we're expected to resist the urge to run towards what seems like the brightest light in the universe after being in that dark hell for so long? I think not.
Yes, that is exactly it. I guess it was my turn to go through that experience. Tim and the others who have done this are way ahead of me. What a fool I was to think it would be that 'easy'.
What's worse is that I had gotten myself moving towards 'letting go' and detaching. I let myself reach out to her and then wham!
What I see is REALLY wrong is that I keep putting MY values into this. When OM says or does something to W that makes her happy, or makes promises to 'be with her' and 'start a business together' MY VALUE SYSTEM says he will actually do it because I WOULD DO IT.
And because of THAT I see these 'plans' as real. And since she responds with anticipation that these dreams of hers will be fulfilled, well then it seems like OM is able to give her the happiness I haven't been giving her. So I feel like I should just get out of the way, since I want her to be happy.
That feeling kicks in when I see her replies and I see how excited she is. Or when she is really happy, like yesterday, and I know it's mostly because she talked to OM. These things give me the feeling of hopelessness and that I'm up against more than just an OM that is a 'diversion' but is actually fulfilling her dreams. So I get weak.
But then I go to see Counselor. And after all my explanations about the situation, after all the hurt she sees me in, after all the promises being made by him that are what my W really really wants, she says "Don't give up". And since she told me from the beginning that she would pull no punches, and that if SHE truly believed there was no opportunity or reason for us to be trying to be together again, she would tell me straight out on that day to save ME from suffering more pain. I practically begged her to agree with ME that this OM and W 'relationship' was really everything that W wanted from life.
A companion / lover who would be her partner in life, and in doing the one thing she loves most as a business together. They could travel together, practice their art together, it's a dream come true for her. How could I possibly interfere (or compete) with her reaching that dream after hurting her for so long?
I really want her to let me give up, move on, get the F out of this hell. And she just quietly says 'give me more time with her'. I cried for ten minutes telling her I just couldn't, it wasn't right for me to even try to interfere with this relationship because it's what she really wants.
Then she asks me "Could YOU be a partner with her, help by running the business side and assist her in the teaching?" Well of course, I know how to run a business in my sleep. And my main work is flexible so I could easily schedule around her classes. I just need to learn the basics of Lomi to be able to 'assist' but that's easy enough.
So of course the next question that needs to be asked is "Why do I think only OM can help her reach this dream?"
She wins again. Like I said, sometimes she really pisses me off.
Of course, then the next 10 minutes are her poking holes in all his stories, his promises, and just HIM in general. She truly believes he is a compulsive liar, finds vulnerable women (I saw the pain in your eyes...) and uses them for his ego, and if possible to live off of. And he's 3,000 miles away.
And this is the hardest part for me. Is it TRUE that this is the kind of person he really is? Is he just using her, only to hurt her? And of course I want to protect her but that's what I've been doing for years, and now is the time for me to STOP.
And since I still project MY values on OM I have such a hard time believing that he is this kind of person. That is what I need the MOST HELP on from the DB Board. What is the reality here?
Anyway, W has been happy and up this morning too. And she is being very outwardly friendly to me a lot more, joking and stuff. I know it's because of the 'in love' high being back up again. So I don't know if I should withdraw or respond to her.
Quote: That feeling kicks in when I see her replies and I see how excited she is. Or when she is really happy, like yesterday, and I know it's mostly because she talked to OM. These things give me the feeling of hopelessness and that I'm up against more than just an OM that is a 'diversion' but is actually fulfilling her dreams. So I get weak.
Frank, I often think some of the same things, but in my case the OM is right here. She seems to be getting more than simple romantic love or friendship from him. To her, his entire world, even his friends (she hangs with them too which is another story) represents the freedom and hopefulness she does not feel with me. For you, seeing your wife react not only to him like she does, but to the life they seem to be planning together, it seems like your in a battle against an entire philosophy, not just some a$$ 3000 miles away. It IS daunting, and probably mostly a figment of your imagination. I mean, the fact that it will ever become reality is a figment of your projection/imagination.
Quote: And since I still project MY values on OM I have such a hard time believing that he is this kind of person. That is what I need the MOST HELP on from the DB Board. What is the reality here?
I never realized I did that until now. Wow. What you are having trouble realizing is that she would go for someone so completely unlike you, and if she really did, it clearly means she doesn't want you anymore. Well, it is possible she fell for someone totally unlike you, and beyond that likely. She is, after all, trying to escape. Why escape to something just like you already have. Maybe too, you are thinking that he may be all the good things you are without all the baggage. Maybe, but you know that is not true just from the email, etc. As for her being infatuated with this guy, who we theorize is not like you, and it meaning she does not want you, well again, she was escaping. As we all hear, this is not about us. Her thing with him is separate from her thing with you. Sure, it may influence how she feels and what she eventually does but I doubt it will come down to "he is like this" and "Frank is like that so...".
Just my thoughts. I am in a rambling mood today so please forgive. I think you are back on the right track and keep it up my good man.
I had an 'aha' moment yesterday (she goes on to talk about how SHE should be teaching massage and why isn't she doing it?) Then she tells him about the brownies and how she got messed up. no details.
1/19/06 12:04 PM : So I decided to see what her reply was to his last e-mail and phone call. She opened with 'my love' (was not saying that the past week) then she basically said that she was so happy he called and she was looking forward to exploring her relationship with him whenever that would be, and setting up a Lomi Massage business with him.
01/19/06 05:08 PM Quote:
Yes, she did put something into the e-mail [of 1/14], she said she determined that she didn't NEED to have a partner to do the Lomi/massage business, that she could do it on her own and that's what she SHOULD be doing. That was the 'aha'.
Curious and curiouser. From what you posted of her email, I thought the 'aha' was about her realization that she should be teaching massage, not about whether she can be a one person business or not.
She's not following through on that 'aha moment' inspired determination to start the business herself that you say she expressed to OM on 1/14, huh? Her subsequent email you posted about on 1/19/06 12:04 PM, is her doing a 180 then when she states she's looking forward to setting up the massage business with him, which implies they discussed doing so prior to her making that statement.
Do you think her 'aha moment' was really just about that she could do it herself, which it may appear to be on the top, or perhaps was her 'aha moment' really about who she realized would be a more suitable partner for her? Considering her actions, my thinking leans toward the latter.
spa trip shes planning in the next month or so is not going to be with any girlfriend
I would have drawn the same conclusion you have drawn but she did just get off the phone with GF earlier and they had made plans in the past to do this but didn't go.
OK. You had posted that her telling you that she was making the trip came immediately after a phone conversation she had with the OM:
Well, OM called her today while she was at home. She talked to him for an hour. When I walked into the house she went outside. A few minutes later she came back in and I heard her saying goodbye... She seemed happier but not ecstatic like she used to be when they talked after days of not talking... Afterwards she talked to me about a couple things... 3) Talked about going to a spa for a weekend with her girlfriend in feb or march.
and that's where I reasonably got that impression.
Reading over your C's interactions with you, my belief is that there's way too much attention to what W is thinking/doing/feeling/planning et al, yet W isn't present at the sessions so as to deliver her input. I understand that as being part of your healing process, but what are we doing with Frank and his patterns in a relationship or as a person? My understanding is that in any broken relationship, except for cases of extreme abuse, both partners are at fault to some degree. Since it's only one's self that one can help, the focus in therapy then becomes helping that person examine themselves and the role they played, help with their own behaviors and thinking and issues, making that paramount over their partner's issues or focussing so on the OM, and band-aid (IMO) patches such as exploring whtehr you could be a partner in her business or not (man, I think the issue is the relationship's core itself, the dynamics of the people who that relationship merely mirrors, not outward topical side events like potential business partnerships - whole 'nuther ball game, that is!) who is another unknown.
I am so stupid when it comes to this stuff...
You're depressed, naturally from this event, and labeling yourself as "stupid". You're not stupid. Life delivers blows which we then in retrospect hit ourselves on the head and blame ourselves for being dumb or naive. All that shows is blame. More important is what you do now and forward going, so as not to repeat mistakes - as THAT would be "stupid", wouldn't it? - as the past can't be changed.
Maybe I'll do better in my next life.
Well, there you go! Looking forward, that's good. Let's do better in this life first, makes good practice for the next Now the question becomes, what has to happen with Frank that's real and attainable for Frank, in order for Frank to have that "better life"?
I used to think she and I were 'meant to be', but now I am thinking it wasn't 'forever', just for a while.
I like that, it's a very realistic thought as opposed to "meant to be". I believe things are meant to be what we mean them to be, to the extent we have any power over it.
Maybe she needs someone more like her. Not a 'Super Genius' like me, who lives in the world of huge complex computer problems.
See? I knew you weren't "stupid". yet this raises a question for me. Should I infer that W was nowhere as intelligent as you? If so, does that reveal that you may have a pattern of being attracted to potential partners that are less intelligent to you? And if so, why? Sometimes we set ourselves up for relationship failure because we make selections based on unhealthy needs, never realizing that's what we're doing. We see that often, for example, with women who are attracted to "bad boys", for example, and then wonder why it never works out.
Was out for a long walk to cry, called a friend and told him I have given up... He Mentioned that when people 'give themselves to Christ' for example, they give up trying to control the world around them.
Your friend senses your grip and therefore advises you to surrender the control. In truth, you never were or are in control of anything regarding circumstances or other people, we just have an illusion we are, weaved by what satisfies that illusion. When you give up control, you merely give up the illusion of control, while reality remains the same. But there is more peace attached to that, since there no longer is the struggle to keep control, nor is there the depths of devastation that occurs when things seem out of control. Very Zen.
Frank... thanks for letting me try and help. Hope you find my thoughts helpful.
Quote: I thought the 'aha' was about her realization that she should be teaching massage, not about whether she can be a one person business or not.
It was both. She should be teaching, and she should be able to do it herself, without any partners. And remember on THAT day she was starting to believe that OM was losing interest in her.
Quote: She's not following through on that 'aha moment' inspired determination to start the business herself that you say she expressed to OM on 1/14, huh? Her subsequent email you posted about on 1/19/06 12:04 PM, is her doing a 180 then when she states she's looking forward to setting up the massage business with him, which implies they discussed doing so prior to her making that statement.
Yes and no. She still intends to 'start' on her own. Last nite she was telling me about various people she knows who could be her 'assistants' when she gets going. And yes, OM had discussed this 'business' together too. He has brought it up a few times, always as a 'if you want to...' type statement.
But, reality seems to be saying that he can't come out here for a while. He mentions "Don't want to create false hope but I will have resources to do this... after my business is a success here...and I leave it to my partners..." Seems unbelievable.
And that for me is the puzzle. What does he INTEND to do? What is he CAPABLE of doing? And more puzzling, WHY is he doing this? It doesn't make sense.
Quote: Reading over your C's interactions with you, my belief is that there's way too much attention to what W is thinking/doing/feeling/planning et al,
Good question. I only post things about W and the DB'ing since this IS a DB'ing board.
W goes to see C weekly also so whatever I share with C helps her to determine what to do next session with W. I see C twice a week and besides talking about what W is DOING we talk about MY roles and what I'm doing to improve MY life. I have quite a good handle on these things.
I think because you and I had a 'argument' you conclude that is the way I am with everybody, including W. Well, I could conclude the same thing about you, but I don't. It was just an incident, nothing more.
So suffice it to say that I have a handle on my issues and continue to discuss the past, present and future in Counseling. Thanks for your concern.
Quote: I think the issue is the relationship's core itself, the dynamics of the people who that relationship merely mirrors, not outward topical side events like potential business partnerships - whole 'nuther ball game, that is!
Yep, that's exactly the issue. If you've been following my long but complicated story, I mentioned that W does not assert herself. That plus my depression and drinking to feel better was the volatile mixture. She was waiting for someone (or something) to take her away from her life, rather than figure out how to find the strength within her to fix it. I was stuck in a cesspool of self doubt and self hatred and was wondering why nobody cared enough to pull me up, especially my wife. Now I know that she didn't have it in her to be there for me. I had to do it myself.
The outside issues are my 'fears' and 'concerns'. I would say that I am fishing for 'reassurance' that this affair really is just an 'affair' and it will have a short life. It's my insecurities of course. Nobody can assure me of anything of course. It is what it is.
The biggest difficulty for ME is that in my gut, I KNOW there is something 'wrong' with this whole picture. OM says things that are well, 'unrealistic'. And for the life of me I can't understand WHY he would want a 37 year old woman who has 2 kids and her body isn't so great any more and she lives 3,000 miles away and she has no money and no real hope right now of earning enough to suport herself, let alone him. Why?
And why is it that when he fades out, she warms up to me again? But makes a point of telling me she doesn't want to be married any more at those times? When he re-enters her life full force again, she is up and happy and -- emotionally gone again.
AmyC said that she sees 'tenderness' between us in my postings. Is it strong enough to make the difference? I don't know. But I do know I fixate on the OM relationship because I JUST DON'T GET IT. And of course I'm hurt.
Quote: If so, does that reveal that you may have a pattern of being attracted to potential partners that are less intelligent to you?
No, I lived in a university environment till I was 28. Most women I dated were very educated. W was different. I felt something different when I looked into her eyes. A depth of love and soul I never saw in anyone else. It was different. The times we spent together were doing things that had nothing to do with being 'smart'. Hiking, camping, traveling, just having fun. If I hadn't lost myself, who knows what would have happened.
W just called me a few minutes ago. She's getting her hair 'done' and doesn't think she will be done on time to pick up D10 from school so could I do it. No problem for me.
BUT, then I start freaking. The last time she got her hair done was around Nov 30, a few days before she went to see OM for the first time! And, 2 days ago they 'reconnected' as we know so of course my imagination is thinking she is doing this to look nice because he has decided to come see her in Feb after all. But then I know you usually have to make appointments up to a week in advance. And if she was going to see him she would have had to ask me about those dates, would I be around for whatever 'made up' reason.
And, it's been almost 2 months, her hair looked like it needed a cut and style anyway. I am hopeless.
Saw Psych today to renew meds and check in. She told me to keep taking care of myself, that all this had nothing to do with me even though there were issues. Given what she knows about me and W she still says ANY reasonably mature or strong Wife would have stepped to the plate and done what was needed to support me and pull me out of my drinking and depression and SHE just didn't have that strength. ANd this is becomeing more apparent to W in Counseling but she has yet to make the actual connection between the two.
And because of that, she is doing what she is now, running away to a 'savior'. She pointed out that she sees so much of this from women that leave stable marriages she just doesn't understand why it is so prevolent today.
Her suggestion again: How long will you take this before you have had enough? I said at least 3 months more to give Counselor a chance to get through her wall. She suggested that the next time she says 'I don't want to be married' to ask her 'ok, when do you intend on filing?'. Kind of a shock treatment.
Anyway, all in all she suggested after I've had enough, to start pushing back. She likes my counselor's idea of another month of counseling before we change the dynamics. Then start pushing her to pay, move out, whatever. Change the dynamics. This agrees with Counselors ideas too.
I REALLY have to stop thinking these negative thoughts. Psych said GET HER LIFE AND OM OUT OF YOUR MIND! PERIOD!
She did say that I should continue to work on building a 'relationship' with W like we had sort of started till 2 days ago when OM reconnected. Being the solid relationship that is predictable while SHE and OM go up and down will sink in eventually. She hopes.
Frank, we both need to get the OM and our W's off the mind. Granted, I wish I was still living with my W, but like tonight, she did not stop by knowing that we will not see each other or talk to each other until maybe Monday if she stops by. Sometimes I wonder if I should make some contact by phone or something occasionally. My mind swirls also when I think of two days of not knowing what she is doing.
The counselors you speak of, is one a DB coach and one a M counselor?
Bruce
PS Just went back and read a couple of your posts from yesterday. I am with you man, except my wife is already in business with the OP. To top it off it is about a block from my office. OP was walking across the street today and I look back and wonder why I just didn't run him over accidentally . Of course would not do that. OP's X says it won't last but 2 years until the old man comes out. Funny that knowing of him for 20 years and how he does and acts is all null and void now. He is "a wonderful man", "a very intelligent man", "such a patient man". It makes me pucke
We will both hang in there as long as it takes. Okay?
- as the past can't be changed.
. Of course would not do that. OP's X says it won't last but 2 years until the old man comes out. Funny that knowing of him for 20 years and how he does and acts is all null and void now. He is "a wonderful man", "a very intelligent man", "such a patient man". It makes me pucke 