Quote: But you. YOU have been here before. You have 2 choices.
Sink or swim.
Continue on as you have been - has there been any progress?
Or
You can tell her to move out because carrying on this blatant affair under the roof you're paying for is not acceptable any longer and neither is the way she is teaching her daughters to treat their future husbands.
There you have it...the extremes....find your "middle of the road again, Frank...that's all you've got to do.
You can do it.
Wish I would have read this last nite! I had that choice this morning and my choice was door #2! I exploded! I wish I would have found the middle ground. All I know what I was doing was getting no progess (in my mind) and I had to do something. All I know Frank is I have no advice, or should I be giving out too much because I never listen to my own words. Maybe you can read my sitch and see if there is anything you can learn! You are one of the strong and wise ones on here, so you do have the strength to do this!
Tim
my story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1049617&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Was out for a long walk to cry, called a friend and told him I have given up. He said 'just take care of yourself, be there for your girls'. He Mentioned that when people 'give themselves to Christ' for example, they give up trying to control the world around them. That's where I need to be. Give up. No longer trying to fix the marriage or hope she will care for me more than 'a friend'.
I told him how I am starting to believe that maybe she and I really were not compatible. Maybe she needs someone more like her. Not a 'Super Genius' like me, who lives in the world of huge complex computer problems. I really liked her not being like me though, it felt good to not be in that world all the time.
The cycles with Her and OM go up and down but they seem to get more serious and ultimatly look like they will reach their conclusion. I'm not sure if I should make her leave or still stick to our 'agreement' to live together for a while for economical reasons and to help me DB. I was feeling good about our interactions the past few days. Mostly because she was 'emotionally here' and it FELT GOOD to connect with her. But also because I thought OM was fading out.
Now I don't really want to be 'friends', it feels good, but it hurts too much. I will keep DB'ing in that respect because it's the right thing to do, for the kids sake. And I made a promise to her that I would.
I strive to be impeccable with my word.
Remember Amy, the girls don't know about OM so they aren't learning 'a bad lesson', and he is far away ... for now. I guess when he isn't far away, whenever that is, then she will HAVE to move out.
Just getting ready to go see my Counselor, lucky I had her scheduled today. Don't worry, I won't die. I'm not that kind of quitter. If I was I would have done it 5 years ago when I was drunk and hurting.
Oh, and Eric, etc... Don't SNOOP. I know my excuse was to find out why she was changing and it looked positive... but in the end it wasn't real.
Sorry to hear about the turn of events, Frank. Tried to give ya a heads up, ya know...
Ok, if she feels 'trapped' then why would she tell me over and over that she is SURE she doesn't want to be married, that she can't believe she stayed in the marriage while she was so hurt? How is that 'what I want to hear'? How does that 'keep the peace'? I'm not understanding you.
All her talk that stroked you, that was her telling you what she thought you wanted to hear, to keep the peace, yadda, yadda, that's what avoiders do. I lived with one myself. BUT... she was getting to the breaking point, she had enough, she was looking for an exit, the "new life" with the OM provided encouragement, she started telling you she wanted out. It's not as if they're ALWAYS going to tell you what you want to hear, 24/7 when they get to that pressure point.
I think what NYS is saying is that your wife, as a conflict avoider, is still avoiding conflict with you. She may well *feel* trapped, even if she isn't. She's trapped within her own emotions
Nope, that last part's not what I meant. It seemed to me that she was indicating that the OM relationship was gone (though in reality it wasn't, or she might have thought it was slipping away at that moment), and w/o the OM's being there to rely on, finds herself "stuck" in her primary relationship which was causing her to despair (her crying and all that), which made me think she feels "trapped", and when feeling "trapped", what they likely do is look for the exit. So, the exit in this case is to get things rolling with the OM.
Another heads up for you, Frank, not that it probably means much, but it's that spa trip shes planning in the next month or so is not going to be with any girlfriend:
"OM called her today while she was at home. She talked to him for an hour... Afterwards she talked to me about a couple things... Talked about going to a spa for a weekend with her girlfriend in feb or march.
Tuesday Jan 10th... she writes to OM ------------ I do not see how I will be able to take time off to see you in Feb"
Sounds like they figured out how subsequently during their phone call, doesn't it?
Saturday jan 14th she writes him
Hello there,
I had an 'aha' moment yesterday
That would've been the day of the "brownie" incident. I'm curious as to what her "aha moment" was about. You posted that she didn't give details? She starts off an email bringing up an 'aha moment' but doesn't share the revelation with her lover? Odd.
Anyway, my advice is to stop focussing on her and her problems and make this is a good time to understand your part in what went wrong, and that requires searingly honest no holds barred self reflection and examination. Welcome to the club.
I f*cked up. I checked out for years, even though I loved her and my kids I didn't love myself and I didn't take care of loving her. She has years of hurt and anger because of it. She totally believes she 'did everything she could' to try to 'help me'. She doesn't want me, plain and simple.
Don't despair! I know its very easy to do right now. I know you recognize the mistakes you made in your R/M and you've worked very hard to make lasting changes for FRANK's sake. You are only responsible for 100% of your 50%. She's responsible for her half. Don't take or shoulder ALL the blame!
Why did God set up this chance meeting to happen in Hawaii?...I can only guess it was to bring two people who had similar issues, similar needs, similar goals together, instead of keeping two people like us together who were so different and unhappy.
God doesn't force people to make bad choices. He allows them b/c we have free will. Each person is responsible and accountable for their own decisions.
I didn't take care of that which was so precious to me. I pray every day for help and healing for the family and 'us', I think God intends to heal us all, just not together. Sometimes you pray to God and sometimes his answer is 'no'.
Sometimes. BUT God does say this, "'For I know the plans I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart'" (Jeremiah 29:11-13).
They are both trying so hard to make it 'work' that there has to be soemthing real there.
This 'realness' is b/c of their neediness, confusion and emptiness. There's nothing 'real' about it. There's a REAL good chance IT WILL NOT LAST!
I feel so guilty for what I've done and sad for what I've lost.
I'm right there with you Frank and feel your pain 'cause I feel the same. But we can't dwell there, can we? In order to move on within ourselves we must be willing to forgive ourselves for our failures and mistakes that played a part - NOT the whole part - in the demise of R/M. Forgive yourself Frank! Do it for yourself and your kids. Its part of self-acceptance. We accept the good and not-so-good within us, forgive ourselves and ask God to forgive us too.
Frank, only you know when to give up. I'm strongly encouraging you NOT to! Not yet! You've come way too far to give up now. I felt like that this morning, but I'm not ready - just yet. Just remember, and I know it sounds trite, in the end Frank WILL be a stronger, better person for the lessons you've learned about yourself and for the patience and strength to endure.
Quote: Another heads up for you, Frank, not that it probably means much, but it's that spa trip shes planning in the next month or so is not going to be with any girlfriend
I would have drawn the same conclusion you have drawn but she did just get off the phone with GF earlier and they had made plans in the past to do this but didn't go.
Quote: Saturday jan 14th she writes him I had an 'aha' moment yesterday
Yes, she did put something into the e-mail, she said she determined that she didn't NEED to have a partner to do the Lomi/massage business, that she could do it on her own and that's what she SHOULD be doing. That was the 'aha'.
Quote: I guess, in DB terms, the most applicable theory is the one about not believing much (don't remember the %) of what you hear and nothing that you see. She is writing those things in a vacuum, one that contains only him and her. I think that is a similar situation most of our WAS are in with their OP. .
TMU
Frank as TMU said before your sitch does bring a tear to my eyes also! You and many of the others here I have never met personally but have a huge place in my heart!
I have to agree with TMU, that our WAS spouses are not in the real world. They are only thinking of themselves and the OP, and their sitch is extremely exagerated. Someone earlier on in your sitch said the realationship with the OM is like an addiction. It is so true. They know deep down it is wrong, but they get such an extreme high from doing it, then they feel guilt, reality comes in, they want to escape again, and the cycle continues. The worse thing is we are along for the ride and see what is happening and they are blind to it! You can do this! Don't give up! You have done so many things right, just keep it up and look at the positives! Many of us gain strength from you and you need to know that is because you are doing things that work. You have fallen victim to "expectations"! I think you told me not to expect things from my W, and do things for yourself! All for me personally things looked very dark this morning, and I thought my W was home packing her bags to leave after what I did, but instead she said she wants to be with me! Positive yes, you just never know!
Tim
my story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1049617&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Sigh. Just got back from counselor meeting. She just pisses me off sometimes.
I told her about the changes in behavior earlier this week, then the call and read her the e-mails.
I said to her: I've had enough, I give up. They obviously love each other and there's nothing that is going to stop OM and her from getting together, starting a business, a life, he's better for her, he's more compatible, She'll never get over the hurt, she just wants to be friends..etc, etc.
She looks at me in the eyes and says, very seriously: Don't give up.
Of course I go through my list of all the reasons why it's hopeless. Why I can't take the hurt any more. Why I need to get out of this.
So she says that "this is the rollercoaster", it will go up and down with this fantasy relationship. When it goes DOWN because he's not playing any more, W pulls back and says things like "I don't want you to come out" or "I need to work on my stuff, maybe we can be friends". After enough of this, and just in time... he gets back in the game and pulls her back.
She pointed out the Dec 3rd e-mail to her GF complaining he didn't call or e-mail and he "obviously doesn't know how to love someone" and voicing her distrust of him. By the 10th she's telling him not to come visit, and by the 13th she's depressed and does the 'brownies' even though he has sent her a very short e-mail saying he misses her. On the 17th she's telling me 'the relationship' is gone.
Then, on the 18th he writes and calls and everything is good again.
and this response from him:
Quote: Yes I am attracted to you. I was not at first , In fact I really didn't register you... Until I saw the pain in your eyes and it affected me...well you know how it affected me.
Not an answer really, doesn't say why he is 'attracted' to her except for the 'pain' he saw. C says he saw a vulnerable woman and is taking advantage of her. C says she believes he is a predator, a Gigalo, he latches onto vulnerable women and lives off them or uses them to get to a new environment after the old one isn't working out. Example: He didn't dump GF till after he met W. Then he has still lived with GF but they are having so much trouble he is thinking about moving in with MOM. He's 39!
Quote: Then he says "I'm not trying to give any false hopes, but when I get out there (if you still wish me to be there), I will have enough knowledge and resources so we can do the lomi massage business! I am looking forward to that. I desparately need a lifestyle change.
C says this is an example of that manipulation. Tells W what she wants to hear. But, she says why would he desparately need a lifestyle change? Something not working in his life? And if he is just starting a business with some partners, why is he abandoning them right away and why does he think they will be giving him money so he can move and 'have resources available' for the business SHE wants to be in? A business doesn't become profitable overnight.
C just doesn't believe he can (or will) DO what he SAYS. She makes one other point: If this is 'soulmate love' then why are the e-mails or calls from him sometimes missing for days lately, or E-mails really only talk about HIM. Never any 'plans' for them. (like Shark mentioned) And the usual ILY to keep her on the hook.
(When I was dating my W, she lived 50 miles away so I could only see her on the weekends. I called her EVERY night)
She thinks that the 'soulmate' thing has already faded. Now it's "Will you pursue me, and show me how much you love me?" phase of infatuation. And she gives him so much slack so he can go away and then come back.
C says: notice that W is the one who writes the longer letters, and they are often very dramatic. Like a romance novel. She said some people like to read romance novels, others like to WRITE them. W is writing her fantasy romance novel to escape her life and her issues. The 'I dreamed of sex with you' stuff is just another part of that novel. And she reminded me of the 'four agreements' number 2 "Don't take anything personally".
C observed that this 'relationship' has nothing substantial as a basis. It's based on 'fantasy love' and 'sexual attraction'. If it really was love, HE would call or write every day, even if it was just to say 'hi, I'm ok. How are you?'.
C said in her individual session with W next week she is going to ask her "Do you think OM is jerking your chain?". That should be interesting.
C thinks this guy will either really hurt W or W will eventually turn it into a fantasy friendship so she can continue the 'fantasy romance novel' she is 'writing'. Her prediction: 2 months or so before it becomes irrelevant or W gets hurt, maybe he finds someone else. She doesn't think they will see each other again.
C told me that in individual counseling W brought up the nice trip we took last weekend, how I did things she never thought I would ever do, how fun it was to have me as a companion. How much I've changed. C says that I need to remember one thing: W is HERE, not with OM. She is living the life she claimed she wants to leave. Dealing with kids and school, seeing me and interacting with me every day, cleaning the house, laundry. All the same stuff while she is 'free'. C says that if she can feel comfortable in her current 'family' environment with me, then maybe she could consider becoming a spouse again.
She also said that whenever she says 'divorce' to W, that she shows a look of fear or unhappiness on her face. C added that so many people she works with file the papers, go through the process and then at the last minute they realize the scale of what they are giving up and decide to work on it. Most people do not want to give up something they have invested so much of themselves in.
She also said that W knows she MUST start this business on HER OWN so she can grow that self esteem part of her. She knows she needs to work on herself and is starting the work with C.
C said 'Give me 3 more sessions with her before you really give up'.
And, don't read her e-mail no matter what. What W says and OM says is not REALITY, it's the 'romance novel' SHE is writing. When you get into it you make huge assumptions. You had them practically married and gone forever in your mind.
Then you don't do your best when you are around her.
I guess I believed 'half of what they say'. I paid for it today. Don't do it, you will only knock yourself down. Next time W seems to be getting closer I will say 'that's nice' and not assume OM is out of the picture or try to find out.
Her question to me: If you KNEW that you were GUARANTEED that if you let her go for 36 months you would be back together after that for the rest of your life, would you do it?
Quote: Was out for a long walk to cry, called a friend and told him I have given up. He said 'just take care of yourself, be there for your girls'. He Mentioned that when people 'give themselves to Christ' for example, they give up trying to control the world around them. That's where I need to be. Give up. No longer trying to fix the marriage or hope she will care for me more than 'a friend'.
Your friend is right, Frank. About giving up control. Submitting. That does not mean giving up HOPE, though. It simply means acknowledging that you are not in control and submitting to the only One Who IS and letting Him guide you to the end result, His will for your life.
In God's Word lies every bit of hope you need for your situation. Every bit.
Seek and you will find. Take your hands off the wheel.
