Moved this from previous thread. Looking for comments. Thanks.
Well, OM called her today while she was at home. She talked to him for an hour. When I walked into the house she went outside. A few minutes later she came back in and I heard her saying goodbye. She said 'Have a good rest of your day!'. She knew I was in the house though.
She seemed happier but not ecstatic like she used to be when they talked after days of not talking. But happy. Sigh.
Afterwards she talked to me about a couple things.
1) Thanked me for being supportive last nite when she was down.
2) Talked about us taking the kids to Disney World over spring break since we didn't get to go thanksgiving due to divorce starting.
3) Talked about going to a spa for a weekend with her girlfriend in feb or march.
4) Talked about 'getting started' with her new massage business and how broke she is.
Overall it was blah. She was neutral but not distant. Made eye contact with me and really was 'present' in the conversation.
She had to go to see counselor for individual session. Said she was ready to go 'and let her make me cry'.
While she was gone, I broke my snoop rule and looked at her email. It was disappointing. I'll post some excerpts from the last 2-3 weeks.
Jan 3 ---
She writes her girlfriend --------------------------- that she hasn't heard from OM in 2-3 days and it's NEW YEARS. To quote her 'no e-mails or phone calls, what a jerk. Then I turned on my computer and I got an IM from him but I didn't respond because I was so hurt mostly because I felt if he had a clue about love he would not treat me like this. And that given that he is not dead he really doesn't care for me as much as I care for him. Which puts me in a very distasteful position.
She continues: Next time I check my e-mail he has sent me a letter with all his troubles. He can't live with (ex GF) anymore because one of them will kill the other so he may move out and live with his mom. He says he has been so busy with his business and (gf) and stuff that is why he has not been able to contact me but he thinks of me all the time.
I do not believe him, He is hiding something and talks vaguely about details. Why should he hide something from me?
Then he adds that I am always probing with questions about what he is like and he has only one question for me: "What does W want"? So I responded to his e-mail with heart felt answers and told him that I don't think he cares for me as much as I care for him as well as who I am and where I'm going in life.
He has yet to respond. Oh he did send me some love notes he found on the internet, how impersonal. Then I chatted with him on IM for 15 minutes not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling but not a 'heay leave me alone feeling' either.
This sucks, what have I gotten myself into?
W
--------- Tuesday Jan 10th (the day we talk about finances) she writes to OM ------------ OM, (not 'my love' or anything, just his name)
I have been busy facing the music of my life, I hope your life is bringing you some happiness in the current of change.
I have been faced with the harsh reality of my financial situation. (she describes issues related to our talk about her paying half of expenses) With all this going on I do not see how I will be able to take time off to see you in Feb, you know how it is when you start a new job they don't want you to take time off. Plus it feels like I need need that time to pull my strength out and become the woman I am...
I hope you know how much I wanted to see you and how hard this is for me to say don't come. My heart is a mess and I need time to repair it. WHat we have I really don't know how to explain, or what to do with it. I hope you will still want me to talk about your life and let me be a friend to you. And perhaps to get to know you better.
I'll always love you... (W)
------ Wed Jan 11 -- Well hello there. I was noticig the weatheris getting better where you live. I was wondering how you are doing. I am alright, busy, but that's a good thing. I think about you all the time. Take care of your wonderful self. Love, W -----Thursday Jan 12 he replies to her letters. Talks about how busy he has been, computer problems, etc.
Says 'Boy i sure do miss you. Talking to you today reminded me of how much'
He Writes 5 paragraphs describing the past few days and all the events he had to deal with. The says 'I know you don't believe me but I think about you very very very very often. LIke I told you today I was going to write you no matter what but you were on line! Cause in the back of my mind I was thinking that while I was getting all this together, and one part of my life was getting straightened out, another more dear part was wilting.
You have been the only thing keeping me from throwing in the towel. I want to make money so I can leave this rat hole....
- He goes on to tell her all the reasons he hasn't been able to write. How he thinks of her 7,628,378 times a day.
He says 'I do love you and thank you for your patience. It will pay off in the end. (or the beginning). All my love... OM
---- friday jan 13th She writes him ---- doesn't start with any greeting, like 'Dear OM' or something, just writes....
Oh how glad I am that you kept your promise and wrote to me, thank you. It sounds like you're needed by everyone in your life. Your cup must be empty. I'll send you love to help fill it. (she says other supportive things you would tell a friend who is stressed out). I am a huge believer in living for today because tomorrow never comes. I hope you live for today and make it all that it can be and be happy with what it is. Right now I am being happy in my misery knowing that I am growing and changing as I continue on my lifes path. Grateful for the pain knowing I will appreciate the sweetness of life all the more when it comes. I love you , W.
--- Friday jan 13th he writes her a short note, says 'love you' at the end. She replies thanking him and saying he brightened her day.
--- Saturday jan 14th she writes him
Hello there,
I had an 'aha' moment yesterday (she goes on to talk about how SHE should be teaching massage and why isn't she doing it?) Then she tells him about the brownies and how she got messed up. no details. Ends with hope you had a good day, I was thinking of you. Love, W
-- jan 14th same day she writes him I have a question, surprised? Of course you are. Are you attracted to me? I know you love me, Just wondering about this. Love
jan 17th, (Last nite) she talks to me about her life and how she is down and the 'empty' spot that was filled by the 'relationship' but that's over now.
--- today, Wed Jan 18th He sends her e-mail.
Yes I am attracted to you. I was not at first , In fact I really didn't register you... Until I saw the pain in your eyes and it affected me...well you know how it affected me.
He talks about how hard it has been setting up his business, how the 'payoff' will give him lot's of freedom to do what he wants to do. Then he says "I'm not trying to give any false hopes, but when I get out there (if you still wish me to be there), I will have enough knowledge and resources so we can do the lomi massage business! I am looking forward to that. I desparately need a lifestyle change. However one thing at a time...
I am getting more free time again so I can write... more to come later
I am in love with you, OM
-- she got this in the morning. Around noon he called her. they talked for an hour and she cheered up.
Impressions? Looks like it's still active. She's still 'in love' and he's saying he wants to be with her. So he really is a massage teacher. Her kind of guy. If he is successful then he can afford to do what he has been saying he will do. move out here and start a business with her.
It was too good to be true. Sigh.
She just got back from counselor, she's seems to be in a good mood.
Hey Frank. And I hope others back me up on this. I am NOT in your shoes. And I CANNOT feel your pain nor would I ever want but I read those emails.
This is b*llshit. Its like you have two people who are REALLY Fu*ked Up. I mean really. Its a joke. They appear to be longing for something like a drug addict. i cant explain it. Its not even like its rational.
Like talking about tru feelings. I got it. You know its like your first love. You hold thier hand every where you go and you never let go. And when you do you say 'I love you' and the other says "I love you more" and so on and so on....
I would be worried if he talked about you and the kids more. Talk real issues about life and creating one together. I know it all seems like pain to you and remember "I love you" are just ckicken scratches on a piece of paper. I bet if those emails were written in Chinese it would not affect you in the least. Get the point. I am sure you do.
She is an alien. Anyway that is how I see it. Its always easier to look from the outside but its clearer out here.
I'm going to have to agree w/ Shark on this one. And do you remember several weeks ago when you got mad at me for calling OM "wishy-washy"? . Well dang, if that ain't the same term that just popped into my head again about him! Through your words I have seen that your wife and you share some incredibly "real" moments together, You are close. But in a way, she reminds me of me when I was lost and looking for a place to fall apart....turned out that that place was home all along...but it took my venturing out into the wilderness of an A before I could find that out. I mentioned earlier that your W is searching...Well for now, she has latched onto this guy who represents a new chance for her - one that REALLY lies with you - but she can't see that yet. He's offering her a pipe dream and I have to wonder, if he really came to where you are, if she'd walk...would she go that far with it. The allure of the unattainable is often the whole attraction in a nutshell - I'm inclined to think that if it should all become a REAL option, she just might not want it after all but instead might be moved to work on really healing herself and your marriage.
Quote: This is b*llshit. Its like you have two people who are REALLY Fu*ked Up. I mean really. Its a joke. They appear to be longing for something like a drug addict. i cant explain it. Its not even like its rational.
I totally agree, it's just like the articles on affairs describe it. Immature, teenager type actions. It's an escape. BUT IT'S important to know that the ones in December were way more 'alien'. These are toned down, which makes me think something is changing...
Quote: I would be worried if he talked about you and the kids more. Talk real issues about life and creating one together. I know it all seems like pain to you and remember "I love you" are just ckicken scratches on a piece of paper. I bet if those emails were written in Chinese it would not affect you in the least. Get the point. I am sure you do.
I hadn't really thought about it that way - they don't talk about a 'life' or anything 'real or concrete' They don't talk about the kids or me. It's all 'airy fairy' stuff. In fact, her telling of the story about the 'brownies' did not include ME taking care of her that nite.
Quote: I'm going to have to agree w/ Shark on this one. And do you remember several weeks ago when you got mad at me for calling OM "wishy-washy"? . Well dang, if that ain't the same term that just popped into my head again about him!
I am so stupid when it comes to this stuff because it's MY LIFE. I can't analyze it myself. I spent an hour talking to a friend who basically said to me this guy is nothing but a 'fabrication', he is making up his life, it's not real. And I felt so RELEIVED the other nite when she said "but there's this empty place inside me that I need to figure out how to fill myself, and I don't know how. It was filled when I had the 'relationship' but now that's gone." because I thought she was saying OM was fading out. These e-mails confuse me.
WHat I am REALLY looking for is the relationship between her comments last nite (there's this empty place inside me that I need to figure out how to fill myself, and I don't know how. It was filled when I had the 'relationship' but now that's gone.) and the e-mails from the past couple weeks. Now mind you that the last week there was very little e-mail or phone calls. I am trying to figure out:
1) Is she slowly losing his luster? Seems like he doesn't tell her much about himself when she asks. 2) He doesn't go out of his way to call her, but he's "in love!". 3) Her post on Jan 10th seems to be a statement that she is going to back off and deal with HER problems.She doesn't really understand this bizzarre relationship they have. 4) She asks him if he is attracted to her. He answers in a vague manner by saying "Yes I am attracted to you. I was not at first , In fact I really didn't register you... Until I saw the pain in your eyes and it affected me...well you know how it affected me." How would most women take that comment? 5) She asks repeatedly to get to know him better but it appears from her comments that he doesn't say anything, unless it's during the cell calls.
This is one of those posts where I would actually welcome 'NYSurvivors' opinion cause it'd be really interesting to hear
Quote: He's offering her a pipe dream and I have to wonder, if he really came to where you are, if she'd walk...would she go that far with it
Will HE come here? I haven't seen evidence that he is financially able to do anything like that. If he was, they would have been togehter by now.
A big question that one friend (in NY) keeps telling me is that the guy isn't real. He says he looks for vulnerable women and latches onto them, and lives off them. He's moving out of his (ex) GF house because they are fighting, to go live with his mom 'temporarily'.
I mean, is this guy for real? He's 39 years old and acts like this. Re-read her rants on an 3rd, she questions his integrity. A lot.
But TODAY after no contact for 4 days he tells her "He's attracted to her, that he "will get out there ..and will have the resources to do the lomi business (which she wants to do). He says " am in love with you,"
My favorite pessimist friend says "Gee, he doesn't talk to her for a few days and then says all the things she want to hear so he can keep her on the hook."
But WHY? Why is he 'in love' or possibly using her or what?
Is she getting a clue that he's not all he seems to be?
As far as him being a fabrication, we all know about keyboard courage. It's really easy to say and do things in the cyber-realm that we would never do or say in real life. This guy could very well be doing that with your W. He can say anything he wants and he knows that he will never have to live up to it unless he decides to. I agree with your friends. He seems like that kind of guy. I don't know if that helps but if it were me, it would ease my mind a little bit. Trust me, with my W's OM being live and in splendid living color, I would LOVE for him to be a fabrication of his own imagination!
She was in a really good mood today. Gave me a hug this morning 'just because I'm in a good mood!' So I decided to see what her reply was to his last e-mail and phone call.
She opened with 'my love' (was not saying that the past week) then she basically said that she was so happy he called and she was looking forward to exploring her relationship with him whenever that would be, and setting up a Lomi Massage business with him. She is going to be patient and wait for him to get his plans rolling so they can be together. She said she dreams about him and it's usually about sex. Gave a brief description about a dream she had along those lines.
I would say her 'empty spot' she spoke about the other day is now filled again.
She went from "it's over, or fading away" when they didn't talk for a few days, but when he called her and reassured her of the "dream" of being together, be patient, we'll do all these wonderful things, I'm in love with you.
Things that fit her dreams for her life and her career. I think she's just gets insecure and is having trouble believing he really will do what he says he'll do, probably because she hasn't trusted me for so long she thinks all men are like that.
What a lot of pain today. I had false hope, now it's crashed, again. That hurts.
I agree with the previous replies to the e-mails I posted. It's like a high school thing, but there are real plans going on between two adults, and I'm OUT of her heart. Period.
It seems like when she's feeling down because of not getting pursued enough by him she comes a little closer to me. But when she's reassured that he's 'committed' to their future together and is just doing the groundwork to make it happen she's back up and happy. Then she's even nicer to me.
Quote: AmyC: Your wife is still so confused. I see that at times you two share such tenderness. Know that no one else is going to know her like you do. Not even massage boy across the country. He only knows her in her confusion. I really hope she can scale this wall in front of her. You two could be in such a better place...
Those things probably don't even register in her heart. They are good moments when they happen and that's all.
Yeah, 'massage boy' won't know her like I do but that is just something you learn over time. I've known her through her insecurity, her personal growth, her career changes and th birth of two children. I've supported her during all these steps even when I couldn't support myself.
But those are part of the 'old W' and her old life. Time to move on to a new one.
When she goes and finds 'old journals' which of course she has ONLY written in when she is hurt or angry, she reaffirms her need to 'not be married' and why being married to me was so awful. All the good I ever did is overshadowed by her hurt at being emotionally abandoned.
When OM drops off line for a few days and she starts to worry "it's over" but he comes back full force and then it's "Let's plan a future!" agan, and it's just as strong, if not stronger than before. "Just be patient, we'll both realize our dreams together!" he says. And he means it.
Let's face it. For whatever reason these two people connected and they have a lot in common with regards to their emotional needs (to be with someone who is not a type 'A' personality, she is needy, he is needy and a 'fixer') and they both want to be in the same career and get away from their current crappy lives.
The career they are in would be great if you were partners with someone you love. You could work together, travel together, it's the perfect 'couple' business.
She's stuck with kids, but she can go do her Lomi massages with him daily and still be able to be home (wherever home is by then) to have dinner with the kids and help with homework on her days with them. Perfect.
I f*cked up. I checked out for years, even though I loved her and my kids I didn't love myself and I didn't take care of loving her. She has years of hurt and anger because of it. She totally believes she 'did everything she could' to try to 'help me'. She doesn't want me, plain and simple.
This is what she wants now.
Most women who leave an alcoholic relationship never go back. Why should I be any different? Because I'm a brilliant genious? Because I have a huge heart and am a kind and loving person? Because I'm sorry?
3 months ago she said she loved me. I don't think she ever really did in a real meaningfull way, or at least not for the past few years. Maybe what I felt was not what I thought it was. She actually thought I was sexy. I felt loved by her and I was really trying to change my situation. Why did God set up this chance meeting to happen in Hawaii? She wasn't even supposed to go, it was a last minute decision. In one day of contact everything changed. I can only guess it was to bring two people who had similar issues, similar needs, similar goals together, instead of keeping two people like us together who were so different and unhappy.
Now she's got a shot at a new start with someone who is probably more 'compatable' with her, same career, similar goals, similar abilities. He loves her, she loves him. People change. She 'grew up' while with me. Now she knows what she wants and it isn't me. At least not the 'old' me and not the 'new' me either.
At least she is spending more 'emotional' time here with the girls instead of being mentally with him. That's good for the girls sake, they need their mom. The divorce hurts the girls but at least she is getting back to normal in the 'mom' business.
Maybe I'll do better in my next life. This one didn't work out so well but at least I have two great daughters. In a couple years I may meet someone I can love. But not as long as I am around her. It'll probably be 3-6 months before OM can get himself out here so I wont have to deal with that issue till then. Hopefully she will just move out at that point.
It's so hard to lose so much, but I didn't take care of that which was so precious to me. I pray every day for help and healing for the family and 'us', I think God intends to heal us all, just not together. Sometimes you pray to God and sometimes his answer is 'no'.
I used to think she and I were 'meant to be', but now I am thinking it wasn't 'forever', just for a while. If it was forever I wouldn't have stayed stuck, and she would have been a strong wife who wouldn't have LET me stay stuck. I don't blame her though, I knew she was not assertive like me and I didn't take care of myself and left her hanging in a painful limbo. Yes there was love, and there were good times. But not enough.
I keep saying I'll 'let her go' but I don't do it. But there's nothing to hang on to now. Nothing.
She has an unforgivable hurt towards me and a love for someone else who wants to live the kind of life with her that she wants to live. It happens. Maybe their 'start' was weird but that doesn't mean it wasn't meant to be, that they aren't compatable with each other. They are both trying so hard to make it 'work' that there has to be soemthing real there.
I'm done. I need to get out of here. I feel so guilty for what I've done and sad for what I've lost.
I don't need to be stabbed in the heart so many times to 'get it'. She doesn't love ME. She cares, how could she not care after 20 years? But she will never fall in love with me again.
I'll work on grieving my loss, and the loss to my kids of their family. Although EVERYONE says that "You're still a family" after a divorce! Yeah, right.
At least we're past the 'angry' stage. She's trying to be nicer and friendlier. That kind of hurts when I know she's not happy to be with me, she happy for other reasons.
Well, I've said enough for today. Maybe I should move to the 'divorced' forum.
Frank, yours is one story that can actually bring tears to my eyes, as is has in the past, and as it is now. That post was almost unbearable to read, and I would have to imagine, much more so to write. I was going to respond to something early on, about how well you seem to handle the things you read in her emails, then I read the rest and understand why you can speak that way now. I hope there are people here who will break this down and talk you back from the ledge. I would love for you to be able to stick it out a little longer to see if anything real comes to pass with your W's R. I guess, in DB terms, the most applicable theory is the one about not believing much (don't remember the %) of what you hear and nothing that you see. She is writing those things in a vacuum, one that contains only him and her. I think that is a similar situation most of our WAS are in with their OP. If there is room for you to continue on, I think it may be in this fact that you find optimism in. I can't say much more than that. I just grieve for you and pray that this is something that is not so permanent as it seems in your mind. You worked so hard and I think so many of us look to you for inspiration. As I have said, you seem like you deserve so much better, but please, make the best of what you have. Again, I hope those who are more wise than I here post something that gives you real insight.
This really just further confirms your wife's issues. Think about it. Just the other day she talked to you about the void in her life that she needed to fill....well that was the closest she ever came to being honest but it was still way off. She just let him pour himself right back into it and took the easy road.
She has a long way to go before she is ready to really address HER needs and not look for them to be fulfilled by something on the OUTSIDE.
But you. YOU have been here before. You have 2 choices.
Sink or swim.
Continue on as you have been - has there been any progress?
Or
You can tell her to move out because carrying on this blatant affair under the roof you're paying for is not acceptable any longer and neither is the way she is teaching her daughters to treat their future husbands.
There you have it...the extremes....find your "middle of the road again, Frank...that's all you've got to do.
. Well dang, if that ain't the same term that just popped into my head again about him! Through your words I have seen that your wife and you share some incredibly "real" moments together, You are close. But in a way, she reminds me of me when I was lost and looking for a place to fall apart....turned out that that place was home all along...but it took my venturing out into the wilderness of an A before I could find that out. I mentioned earlier that your W is searching...Well for now, she has latched onto this guy who represents a new chance for her - one that REALLY lies with you - but she can't see that yet. He's offering her a pipe dream and I have to wonder, if he really came to where you are, if she'd walk...would she go that far with it. The allure of the unattainable is often the whole attraction in a nutshell - I'm inclined to think that if it should all become a REAL option, she just might not want it after all but instead might be moved to work on really healing herself and your marriage. 