Hi always - Most of us here are on that infamous roller-coaster, we feel up one day and crash down the next. Over time, we gain skills to predict these ups and downs, and at least be prepared so they don't devastate us so much. You are doing so well, using this board to sound off and process where you are heading.
Just wondering if you have gotten to the stage where you feel setting goals would be useful? I know for me when my PMA feels fragile, I go back to basics to shore up my defences. Lots of good things happening with your H, maybe some of them need re-framing so you can actually see the progress?
thanks for the encouragement, it helps to know that I' doing some of this right!
Predicting...hmmmm, don't know if I'm that good. I did hit a few slumps last night and this morning that I had to pull myself out of with forced PMA. I realized that late night and early morning are not good times for me to be happy go lucky anyway, so I am aware. I now have an arsenal of things/concepts to think about when I feel this way. I remember the misunderstandings, of little things we did and misinterpreted into hurt, etc. I remember that I ASSume a LOT, and so does H. Mostly, I KNOW that H loves me and wants me to be happy.
You're right, lots of progress with H. I set some goals on previous posts, but am really interested in your re-framing concept. Can you explain further? I would lovet o learn how I can move forward with this.
Well, you all warned me, and I could sense it in the air...Murphy's Law of DB: When feeling a sense of peace and content for many days, beware, a major meltdown is just around the corner....
So, there I was, just content and smug about my new state of mind--wary, but content. Dispensing advice on your threads, waxing philosophical on mine, and then comes Saturday night.
The day went good. We were both eagerly working on a project we wanted to finish. Then, I saw H with a phone in his pocket that wasn't his own. I shut my mouth, but I can't act (dang). Hours went by, and then I just asked...."do you have a second phone?" He calmly replied, No, my wallet.
Now, for some background....when things hit the fan in Oct, it was mostly catalyzed by my casual check of the phone bill and seeing lots of text msgs, and some short phone calls over 3 weeks. I asked, he lied at first and then came out with the truth. A friend he had consulted as to what to do at the frustrated state of affairs of our M. Friend helped, they worked together (the she moved) and they just kept in touch. She is "needy" and H is very helpful and a good shoulder to cry on type. He was horrified, really thought he did nothing wrong (then why hide it)...felt I would explode, not understand (ya think?), and i KNEW it was nothing else than that. He admitted that he trusted her, and enjoyed the friendship when he was feeling rejected by me and needed to vent to someone. He said it could have been a man and NO attraction. I believe him (I know the woman). He said it got weird b/c he did start to get the hint that she might like him. I am not defending him, and believe me, I went OFF the handle on this for a LONG time, until I figured that it's exactly why he needed another friend...I was even told by a counselor that it was NOT an affair, just that I had pushed him away and he was in need of a person to talk to at a really tough time (our M). He said that I had closed all communication b/w us with my actions (he's right)...
OK, back to last night. SO....hours later, I calmly asked again, "do you have a 2nd phone?" He calmly said "yes, my parents sent it to me, so I could talk to them if I needed.." I was sad that they, and he thought that I was an evil monster to think that talking to his parents was something I would flip about....again, confirm they hate me. He did indeed say that they did want him to D me, I was not a good W. Well, I sadly (not angrily) talked about all the things he had done and how I felt. For the first time, he admitted to all of it and really understood. I cried so hard I thought my heart was going to fall out. I cried all night. We slept so little. He consoled me a lot and he finally admitted that he really did want to end our M in the beginning of this mess, when he finally faced his feelings. He told that to his parents and they clung to that. He said that he did not leave and prayed that I would leave him, b/c didn't want the blood on his hands. I can understand. I finally admitted something that he has thought for a long time and it was true, so I told him: there were times in our M that I wished I was not married to him. When the bomb hit 2 months ago, I REALLY thought about if this is what I wanted, a window for us to both be free if it wasn't mean to be. I admitted that too.
It was SOOOO cathartic to be honest about the last of things we did not admit because we didn't want to hurt the other. It felt so good. He felt less guilty knowing that I thought the same.
We talked about what was broken. We talked about what we wanted in a M. We talked about whether we thought this can be fixed. We talked about not trusting each other and how sad that was. We talked about how our love has changed and how it hasn't. H mentioned that reason he could never walk out was because he realized he loved me the same, just hurt and was angry. We talked about how this was a slow road, and would take time, but we were committed to making it happen. We talked about how other things in our life were such stressors that didn't allow us to work through the normal trials of a M (only so much you can do when you see your spouse 3 hours a week and have a negative bank balance and have constant stomach stress). Not to blame the world for us, but I guess we're being real about being "slow learners."
Overall, it was great. Painful, but great. I am exhausted now, and I think I let out my frustration just before H left and regret. I told him how I was frustrated that he and his family thought that I could not tell the difference b/w calling another female friend that you hid and originally lied about, and calling your parents. To send a phone to your son means that you're scared for him, that is STUPID. I am not a freak. I am NOT dumb. He got really sad and upset because he was feeling good and asked if we were regressing. I did not say anything. He was upset that I brought it up right before he walked out. Big NO NO that I have backslid on. Oh well, this is a lot and I will apologize and do better.
Take away thought to BB friends: this is darn painful. BUT, I think most all couples have rough spots, terrible times, whatever you call it. There are some that split, some that stay and just live with it and make do, some that go through the pain and work to tear it apart and live the dream. It's not easy, but I think we all fit into the last category.
Sorry your night was difficult and that you didn't get much sleep.
A few things strike me here. Did you ask H why he initially lied about the phone? How did it make you feel in terms or trying to rebuild trust with him? Also, not to put you into an emotional tizzy, but do you think that he is sincere and honest when he tells you his parents sent it to him?
It must be very difficult for you that his parents aren't fond of you. For yers I felt my MIL hated me. That isn't the case, but I always felt it was and it was difficult to handle. Do you think they have any influence over him when it comes to saving your M? I mean, aside from being difficult for you, it must also be difficult for him. Why do they think you are so terrible?
You say that your H confessed to everything but I'm not sure what everything is. Did he have a PA?
On a more positive note.........
Quote: H mentioned that reason he could never walk out was because he realized he loved me the same, just hurt and was angry.
This is huge. At least your tears and emotional night wasn't all for nothing (think of it, you could be me with wasted R discussions that get you nowhere)
I hope that you are having a great day. Don't beat yourself up too much for venting to H before he left. We all backslide from time to time....it's whether or not we can take the steps forward to get back there that count.
~StrongEnough
I'm moving on...at last I can see...life has been patiently waiting for me.
Me-32 WAH-35 DD-11 DS-4 H left 11-03 Piecing- 12/04 WAH again- 03/07 Married 12 years Divorce final May 15, 2007
Tough day, tough talk for sure. But you know what? I am jealous. You've had a talk and you came out ahead, you know the problems, you know what needs to be worked on, you know he loves you. You have the tools to do the job.
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
You are the BEST!!! OK, if you insist, I'll have another beer for you...WCW, let's start on virgin drinks first, eh?
Slowly, You bring up some GREAT points. No, he did not have a PA. Of course, that is trust, but I am fairly sure I know when he is lying. Also, when I first found the phone records, I knew before I asked him that it was not physical. Stupid, who knows. YES, of COURSE I questioned, about 1 million times (too many) if the phone was really from his parents, he looked me in the eye and said yes. I asked if he talked to others on it, and he said, yes, but no one in particular....and hardly uses the phone. Just some times when he calls parents b/c free cell-to-cell. You know, I trusted him. I tossed and turned, but when he answered, I believed it. He was really sad that I did not trust him anymore and had to assume the worst. Am I being naive? Ugh, this does sound bad, huh? I know he doesn't talk to previous FF anymore, but who knows about others....I asked if there was someone else, even a good friend, and he said no. That could be a lie, but counselor said that since things are tough, and communication was killed by me, I could not ask if he talked to friends to get through a rough time. OK, I'll take that. Ihave no idea whether he has revealed to other friends about us, he may have months ago, but I don't know about now. He works really late, and who knows if he talks to others then. He's not Mr. Social Butterfly on the phone--well, at least not with me.
No, you're not sending me into an emotional tizzy, all things that popped into my head to begin with. And, I hope he would NOT lie about the phone, because eventually I can ask them straight out about it.
Let me ask, are there signs I should be looking for? I feel I know him well, his tendencies, his moods, his aptitude for lying and doing something like that and coming home to me, and I feel that there is no PA, in my gut (and I am a VERY suspicious person of him now)....BUT, don't want to be stupid.
Here is what I am planning for tonight....let me know what you think. He mentioned that he felt that this morning was a "restart" button in a way....since we had told each other what hurt the most about how we felt about the other...the worst of the truth. I asked him that on that note, if there was something else, like the phone, that he wanted to tell me...anything. He said no. I will ask him again. I did tell him that I had serious trust issues with him, he knows that and is sad. BUT, he said he lied about things b/c it would get me mad/paranoid, and also, we were not on the best terms and very distant in each others lives. BUT, tonight, I will say that on his suggestion, we are starting over to move closer to each other and work on this in earnest. That means that tonight, and this week even, is amnesty to confess anything, everything. That if afterwards something comes out, trust will be seriously lost, even if something small. That I will not freak, nothing. Even if you think I will not know, for the sake of integrity of our M, tell me. I think I will tell him about this BB. And, if you still can't tell me, then stop it. At this point, nothing to come between us. Maybe harsh, but really, why go half on effort.
Yes, lots of positives also. Thanks for the reminders. I called to apologize about the conversation, and it was good that I did. I didn't want him to go the day thinking that Iwas mad at him. He understood, we talked a lot, and I vented how I felt. I confessed that I didn'twant to vent to him, just buck up, then realized that this was a behavior that I did that came from distrust of him, moved me away instead of closer. So, I said I wanted to call, and vent to him, to reach out to him, my friend. One step at a time.
Why do ILs hate me? I think they are really being protective of H now. All they can remember is how unhappy he was in the beginning, and how he wanted to leave. Then they went into OD to get ready for his D meltdown. He said he feels ashamed and guilty for telling them, had no idea it would come to this. They have NO influence, if anything, he has cut them out a lot, talks to them little (so he says, and I kinda believe that), and cuts out talk about us b/c they are not supportive. He has had issues with his parents and he said weeks ago that I always came before them, no matter what.
I feel much better now.....went out with a friend to some silly shopping (OK, I LOVE the Dollar store, cheap thrills). I feel a lot better. I also feel better being on the same track with H--at least in the right direction.
WCW...I KNOW it will happen for you too. IT takes a LOT to get around that corner of reaching out to ecah other, and then you wonder why in the world it's so dang hard. How we ever lost that to begin with. TRUST....really, that's what it comes down to. IT's a decision. Decide to trust.
I think that if you believe what he is telling you, then you are taking a step in the right direction. Ok, it's not a step....it's huge leap of faith........to give him the benefit of the doubt and I commend you on that.
That being said, I have given my H the benefit of the doubt in certain situations. That does not mean that I put 100% of my faith on him being honest with me. I think it's normal for us to question.
As for the PA, hindsight is always 20/20. When H started his EA with OW, he still acted just like he did every other day. When his PA started I noticed little comments he would make.......like when we'd joke about me trading him in for a newer model, he would normally speak out against it, then it turned into "go ahead". His appetite for sex became insatiable. He would stay up late working downstairs in his office doing marketing for the business....but instead he was on the computer talking with OW. I think that every person acts differently. Some people withdraw completely from sex with their spouse when they have A's. My H is a seasoned liar. He has had years and years of experience and most of the time, I can't tell if he is telling me the truth or not, he can look me straight in the eyes and lie to me without a flinch. So, the fact that you can read your H is a bonus tool for you. Not all of us have that luxury.
It's too bad that your in-laws only focus on the negative that they were once told or shown. But it's great that they have no influence on him. It IS his decision afterall, not theirs.
LOL..shopping at the dollar store. Sometimes it is just those simple little things that pick up our spirits. For me, it's the yard sales in the spring and summer. Just looking for that one thing you didn't know you needed until you saw it.
I used to work in technology before going back to school for Microbiology. When troubleshooting a network or pc issue....we always used the "KISS" it method. (Keep It Simple Stupid) Now, if we can only apply that to our life situations we would all be so much better off wouldn't we?
Enjoy those beers while I enjoy my toasted almonds! If we aren't too hung over, I am sure we will catch up tomorrow! LMAO
~Strong
I'm moving on...at last I can see...life has been patiently waiting for me.
Me-32 WAH-35 DD-11 DS-4 H left 11-03 Piecing- 12/04 WAH again- 03/07 Married 12 years Divorce final May 15, 2007
You know, it's good for me to think about this....I know that showing faith and trust is important, but you're right, it's normal to question.
H was TOTALLY normal when EA started. Granted, it was 3.5 weeks, intense for 1 week, conversations were mostly 10 min, mostly an insane amount of text messages. He honestly did not think he was doing anything wrong. He was devastated when he admitted it, lying to cover up a small thing that snowballed (so he felt). I told him that I didn't mind if he had a FF; I have plenty of MFs. Even if venting about us, just that he should tell me. I FLIPPED b/c it was lied about, and then the volume of text messages. SO, because I FLIPPED, I think he'd try to hide something innocent.
Our sex life has really taken a hit since the "bomb" the last 2.5 months. It's normal, I guess. We're both really stressed, sad, angry, distanced, like being in 1 r-e-a-l-l-y long fight. I assume it would be hard for him to have a PA...he walks to work, I usually have the car. He does work late, he got promoted and is working the equivalent of 2 FT jobs....so he does have lots of time at work to talk to folks, which is where he used to have small chats with FF. Who knows. I guess I can only ask, and get the answer that I get. I can only tell him that I totally trust him, and hope that'll make him feel guilty to tell or stop. But really, if it's a friendship to vent, then I don't mind...it's not different than what I have here with folks. He wanted to lie to me last weekend about his bro coming into town (said his bro asked that I not know he was here [I'm starting to see WEIRD family] and he thought it might confuse or hurt me]...but after I asked once where he was going so early, he came in and spilled the beans. Then it was a quick confession about the phone too. He said he couldn't lie to me like that {he withheld info on things his family said about wanting him to D me, but he said b/c he felt so bad in hurting me and guilty for having such a weird family--I assured him it wasn't his fault, I went thru that too, not mad at him}...I also told him I can tell when he does lie. I remember when he confessed about the EA in Oct, I was shocked, b/c he NEVER lied to me like that. I told him so, and he agreed, he said he only did it b/c it started out as him REALLY frustrated at our M, not knowing what to do, really sad, and confided in a friend for advice...that friend did most of the initiating contact, and then it bloomed to crazy txt messages. I KNOW this sounds like a recipe for disaster...and I really do have doubts at times, then my gut says NO. I don't know what to think...so all I can do is believe. Worst case, I get caught feeling later that I should have known all along. I joked last night about him having an affair, and that I knew he didn't , and he got really sad and serious, just to talk about the topic. Don't know what to make of it all...just let it go for now and trust. What do you think?
I guess I have an H that has a life mostly perfect for EA/PA, but I do't know how to help that. I told him that last night, that aside from him being home for the little time he is, I have no idea of anything else b/c we're so distanced and disconnected. He could be doing anything. I don't pry or ask...he said it was sad that I jumped to the worst conclusion, but that he understood. He did answer questions about $ and other things I asked (he's been drawing lots of $$ out during Dec, but he had reasons & explained). I KNOW this sounds like a bad picture....tell me what you think.
Yeah, sucks that ILs are like that. I am being good tonight about not thinking about it much. Going out really helped. I can't control that situation. It's in his hands and his family's. All I can do is be the best person I can be day to day. He received 2 packages from them (to our house mail, so not meant as a secret pckg) and he said he doesn't want to open them. Has my name on it, but I won't open. I think he just wants to ignore it b/c of their actions and he's feeling uncomfortable, or maybe I'm reading it all wrong. Who knows.
Mmmmmm, just finished my beer You GO girl, Toasted Almonds. You know, I've been meaning to try that for a while, but never got around to it. Maybe that's a nice drink for WCW...yummy!
Nice finds at the $ Store! Wine glasses and candles...and 3 shirts for under 3 bucks at the thrift store. Cheap thrills go a l-o-n-g way right now! Expect little and you shall always be happy!
Update: Last night, H came home late, after I went to bed. He's trying to work 1 weekend day rather than stay way late on weekdays (good for him, b/c he's so darned exhausted). For some stupid reason, I was guarded when he came home, so not receptive to his hello and questions abuot my day.
I was proud of myself...I remembered out talk about effort to move closer and reach out to each other. He was reaching out, and you know, ALWAYS has after fights (where I was a raging b**&^)...I felt bad. I put down whatever resistance I had, because he did too, and I reached out in convo. I asked ?s, told him about my day. He really opened up then. I realized that he was still mistrustful of my moods, and since earlier in the day I had been upset, he felt I still might be at him.....so, one small step...we broke a little cyle of ours!
Nice night. H came to bed and we talked and laughed together and actually cuddled (haven't done this in forever). Really, my favorite thing of being married was bedtime--just cuddling, laughing at jokes or funny things (H is a really funny guy) and getting those happy hormones right before you drift off to bed. He actually seemed vulnerable and wanting of affection, which I always dole out in excess!!! Was sweet.
Another baby step for me, I reached out and told him TY for listening to me earlier in the day, for being my friend, for consoling me and telling me we would get through it. It helped and made me feel that it's not so bad, and everything will be OK. I know it made him feel good. I also said some things that indicated that I was supportive of his hard work at work, his longer hours and new job duties...that was a BIG thing for him before....not feeling like he was torn b/w home and work...he's a touch of a workaholic.
Well, we both slipped into a coma since we had little sleep the night before. I woke up later than usual this morning, and really thought that the good vibes might have faded, and thigns would go back to slightly awkward as they usually do b/w us. I saw him and he actually came over and gave a hug and kiss (that is HUGE for him even when things were good--I always initiated affection...he loves receiving, but not thoughtful about giving). He initiated a call to my family (showing that he thought about it first--sweet). Overall good vibes this am...I was on the phone when he left, but still made a point to run out and say bye (a little ritual we had).
SO....I see the biggest challenge on my part being that I need to keep the good vibes and efforts to reach out consistent...not get bogged down by negative thoughts, moods of hopelessness, problems, etc. I cannot withdraw. This is a really vulnerable time, really fragile and I have to keep it up. I know I reach out, he will too. I think our talk on Saturday night really pushed a restart button for him. He sounds/acts very "liberated" and free--perhaps confessing his once true feelings did it.
Of course, I may be jumping the gun here, and taking it too far in my mind and we might still be back at square 1 tonight with awkward moments....I am prepared for that. All I will do is reach out, be comfortable, and open.
Slowly
