Hello all. I am new to this forum; have been "lurking" for some time and felt the need for a little strength and fellowship as I muddle through this.
The story: * In our early 30s * No kids * Married 4.5 yrs (known for 14) * not separated * No OW, no drugs, no addictions, no current financial distress (basically, we are the only ones getting in our own way)
Well, in keeping with all M-fixing advice, most of the downhill in our M was MY fault. I was nagging, demanding, critical, subtle put-downs when unhappy, doubting, controlling, overbearing, impatient...all things that ultimately made H feel that he was: unloved, that I did not want to be married to him, could never make me happy, always disappointed me, humiliated, low self-esteem, guilty.
Now, as with all of you, we also had our share of good times. Times that I WAS very supportive, understanding, etc...most of our M until now was during a VERY stressful financial for both and training period for H, where he was miserable and disengaged a lot, which was my complaint.
Things have been rocky for the last year, more since this summer. Lots of fights, of course this is normal for me, so I thought little of it, not aware of the constant damage I was doing. H never complains (tried a few times, but of course I argued, so why try again), withdrew in ways, shuts down when R talk (because it was always a fight where I had to be right and lunge at him).
I like to think that I'm NOT a mean person, so when things hit the fan in Oct, he said he could not do this anymore and was confused (not sure whether to separate, D, or what, but just could not live like this), I panicked, did the begging, crying, etc. for a few days and then stopped. I started to READ and CHANGE like crazy. Then I realized that just CHANGING was NOT enough. I had to find where the reactions and actions CAME FROM and cut the cord. I dug and faced that a lot of my lashing came from hurtful things/times that we had when initially dating (more than 10years ago). Issues and times that when we got back together, we never talked about, just swept under the rug and accepted that things were different and happy (big MISTAKE)--I really didn't even get a "sorry" from H and I am realizing that is a big thing for me. I forgot and forgave, but somewhere along the way, I thought that I needed to assert myself, speak up when I was pissed (read: fight), be brutally honest (read: disrespect), not be shut out or down (read: nag, demanding, etc). SO, that has made it much easier to cut the cord. Though I forgave and truly believed that H was new and wonderful and that was the past, I still acted like I was at risk of him hurting me. Am I the only person here that has this issue? Anyone relate?
So, I have tried my best to change. Though, I still slide. Mostly because I really have to think and realize that even little things I do can be "demanding" and I don't see that. I immediately apologize/acknowledge. I still try to talk about the R (only at scheduled times, because I feel that we still have misunderstandings, and want him to face feelings because he suppresses, but if he says no, I am OK). VERY emotional.
The status: we never separated. Miracle that H did not lleave, he thought about and looked into it, but did not. We sleep in the same bed. In the beginning, there were a few nights that he would sleep at a friends. He would mostly be away from me all the time. Working through his anger at things that happened and how he let it happen to him. I tried to give space and not be sad and hysterical all the time (hard). There were times that I was demanding that things did not go faster or always asking questions that monitored how he felt now. I stopped all that. I can't force this and it's part of my old behaviors. This is hard on him and I need to be as patient as he was during our M.
We talked little and very uncomfortable for the first month or more. He spent T-giving with friends and I stayed home. For Christmas, he said he wanted to be with me, nice gift, went away for the weekend. He said he wanted to start spending time together to see if this works out, to see if he still has feelings for me in the end. He loves me very much. Lately he has said he has rediscovered his feelings for me, loves me more in ways, thinks he can forgive me. Of course, none of this info is volunteered, only when I ask how he is doing. Things were going better, still fragile between us. Very rarely ML (2x/month), little or no touching on his part, no voluntary ILY, I let it be but say it when I want to to let him know he is loved (esp. since that was his complaint). He talks of the future of US, we are making plans for the year, etc.
Of course, there were things that I was not getting from him too. He was a workaholic, and I often came second and was expected to understand. I mentioned that when we first blew up in Oct, but have not since. I have tried to be VERY OK with whenever he comes home and whatever he has to do (mostly because he needs space too). Slowly, he has started to come home earlier, calls to tell me when he will come, tries to make it home for dinner (said the other day that he wanted to make an effort to spend time with me), and spends all day onweekends with me.
LOTS of progress on both of our parts. I am grateful that he even comes home each night. Though in the beginning I dreaded him leaving and begged to stay, I very quickly told him that I would understand if he did leave to separate or D. I still tell him that. I tell him that I will be sad, but not mad, I will be OK financially, no one will be mad (parents, etc), not to stay out of guilt or obligation. I want him to be happy, and settling is not that. We can make it through the rough patch, but in the end, if he feels that it's not there, then it's OK. I don't want him to feel pressure to stay. I even offered to leave if it would make him feel better. He has always said no, said he wanted to sleep in the same bed, could not handle leaving. In fact, I need to stop asking that, since when I do, I have noticed that it's starting to bother him (hurts, like I don't have faith in this).
OK, enough blabbering. Where are we now? Lots of pain. This morning was very emotional, he is going through a lot with work and his estranged brother came into town as a surprise yesterday wanting to spend the weekend to cheer him up--but did not want him to tell me that he was in town. So basically LIE...which H did not do, said he could not do that to me. He is spending time with him out of hosting and being nice (mostly BIL is here for his own family issues of reconnection, very selfish). On top of that, my grandmother is dying and that is stressful. H immediately came home and consoled me before leaving. Lots of issues between them and it's overwhelming--mostly by his family...they were not supportive and stopped speaking to me for 3 months now. I reached out but they did not. That is a BIG thing for me.
THis morning, we were both feeling a lot of pain and cried together. He because he feels lots of stress at work, between us, feels tired of putting on a happy face and getting thru the day, lots of pressure (I again offered to leave if that would help--he almost cried at that). I am sad because of all I did. He is so sweet, his love is the best thing in my world. I love him so much and would give anything for him to feel wonderful toward me again. I know it will come. It's just a sad and painful day. I hate it, but also, knowing H's tendency to suppress feelings, I think it's a good thing that he is still in pain and willing to tell me. Means that this is following a normal course. Normally, he was all about "let's have normal times, not talk R, and just forget" which I think is detrimental.
So, I am embarrassed that my started post is so rambling, and so whiny--it's hard to write well when you givet he big story (well, that's my excuse!). I know that in so many ways I am blessed. I am grateful for each day he comes home to share his presence. I wish I had always treated him like this. I wish we did not have all the pain that we have had over 14 years to each other.
It's a 3-day weekend so folks might be out having fun (hope so!). But, if anyone cares to read the ramble without nausea, I would welcome your dialogue.
I'm first! Howdy, Always! I just wanted to be first somewhere today! I'll drop by again when I've got more time to make some real comments that are thoughtful, and maybe helpful. TTFN
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
Hello, and welcome to the neighbourhood Fellowship 'round here can be cosy.
He because he feels lots of stress at work, between us, feels tired of putting on a happy face and getting thru the day, lots of pressure (I again offered to leave if that would help--he almost cried at that)
Often when things seem overwhelming, it is useful to break them down into bite sized chunks. What about the stress between you can you own, and therefore reduce so his burden is not too much? I know with NG, my H, when he thinks I am happy with an outcome, he relaxes, When he thinks I am unhappy, he gets would up. So lowering my expectations of simple day to day things helps him feel more at peace.
Looking forward to sharing your journey, it seems to be a very interesting one thus far.
Hi Slowly! Thanks for the input. Yes, "interesting" is definately one word for it!!
You hit the nail on the head as far as the one major issue that my H has, from which many others spin out, with not just me, but everyone. He is a MAJOR people pleaser (so am I, bad combo). Sensing my happiness, especially towards him and the things he does is SO important. Of course, my behaviors did NOTHING to help this, and he has told me so many times, I was too dense.
SO, now, I have made a major point in not getting upset at things, really taming my reactions to something more realistic. Lots of my intense reactions (fights, etc) came from feeling that he was "not listening, did not care, etc" that really, when dug up, comes from our past dating history (stupid, but really what I think is the link--NOT blaming HIM, just need to address and cut...we made a mistake about NOT talking about the past--maybe I am immature...but kind of like the backlash in the LBS syndrome when WAW comes back). BUT, I am not unrealistic or making changes that are not sustainable. By that I mean that I did not become a "doormat" which I felt I was in our early R. There are things that are important to me, which I do express to him, but in a kind, rational, calm way. Makes a HUGE difference. My H has developed this negative reaction to anything that he perceives I am demanding or "expecting." But when I don't, it's amazing, he usually picks up on it and tries to do it (right now, he's still feeling a little anger, etc, so does not come as quick, but in the past he did). So, I was stupid not to realize that he DOES love me, want to make me happy, just I approached it the wrong way. People will disappoint you, but they still LOVE you. etc, etc
Of course, there are things that I felt he needed to work on, but I can't change him, just me. When we discuss, I can only express them as needs, or things that made me feel a certain way. BUT, I see him slowly turning around. I appreciate every small effort, and make sure that I DO NOT expect it. He starts to call after work (before, he just came anytime, which is annoying when he comes home at 10pm and you're waiting and worried--working odd hours is part of his training/job). Common courtesies. This is just one small thing, but he is engaging more in things when he comes home too, making an effort to act like he wants to be home when he is.
One thing that I have noticed is that we have gotten caught up in this cycle of projecting hurt feelings onto each other. Probably a bit of co-dependency? Making each other happy is important to each of us, and we take it so personally when we can't (and you can't always). SO silly, I know. For ex: during our first year of M, I was depressed over lots of things in life. This really affected him, he felt inadequate in not being able to make me happy, etc. etc. In reality, seeing him at the end of the day is the ONLY thing that made me happy, and I told him so. Likewise, he experienced depression during 3 years of our M, training related, and most of why I reacted in ways to his disengagement was because I was upset that I could not make him happy, that seeing me at the end of the day provided no respite, etc. In reality, he said that seeing my smile at the end of the day made his day...that he would go out of his way to pick me up from work to see me. SO self-centered and weird, I know. I caught myself the other day. He had a bad day, I heard it and instantly started getting nervous, then I chilled....I cannot help his bad day, just be calm and try to be supportive. Sometimes it means leaving him alone. So detach your ego from someone's life.
Not to deflect blame (and trust me, I am happy to take blame, makes it easier in a way, because then I can change it), but when talking to friends, they point out what a rough period in LIFE it was during the past years of our M. Saw each other little, tough times at work for both, hard financial times. Yes, we could have done better at turning to each other then, in working together and not drifting apart. I could have been a better wife and I regret, andhe regrets not being a better H. BUT, it's somewhat a miracle that we got through.
SO, it seems that we have gotten caught up in many misunderstandings, hurt feelings, bad behaviors, and somewhere along the way, stopping to fulfill each others LLs and "needs." To stop listening to each other.
So sad that it can come this far. I guess this is where we are now, trying to repair, but feeling intensly sad that something so beautiful, that you held dear, is broken at all. VERY painful for both of us.
Hi Always, I'm back. You really seem to have a pretty good handle on this stuff, or it seems like it from what you write. But just so I can feel better about dishing out some words of wisdom - here goes....
Quote: In fact, I need to stop asking that, since when I do, I have noticed that it's starting to bother him (hurts, like I don't have faith in this).
Absolutely, quit saying that. That's a real negative sinker, he's got to be wondering if that's what you really want.
Quote: SO, it seems that we have gotten caught up in many misunderstandings, hurt feelings, bad behaviors, and somewhere along the way, stopping to fulfill each others LLs and "needs." To stop listening to each other.
Lots of stuff in that little statement. Pick it apart, make one item a priority and work on it first, then the next, and the next. You're very 'lucky' that you are able to talk and work about things together. I'm sure you know that, but don't take that lightly. I look forward to a time when my H and I are back to that place.
And really, don't be embarrassed about putting anything here. I've put out some awful personal innermost feelings and thoughts, it helps to shed them and move on.
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
Yes, I will stop saying that. I am also trying to stop being hurt by his sincerity and honesty. His brother dropped in this weekend (they have an estranged R, so it was weird), to "cheer him up" but more for his own needs. I asked if he asked about us, he said yes, and H said that we had rough times the last 3 years, forgot to take care of each other, grew apart instead of together and we're working on it--at least talking about it. His brother said that he would stand by him whatever decision he made (D or not). That was a shock to me, since it seemed that H did not want a D. I am being really immature and emotional here.
Selfishly, I was hurt that H did not tell his bro that we are working on things, they are getting better (he may have said that), we are sticking through this. Of course, I was just BEGGING to ask, "well, is D still an option?" BUT, you will be SOOO proud, I KEPT MY MOUTH SHUT. Said I was happy he had the time with bro. He quickly changed topic to pretty skiing and I went along with it (may have asked a few ?s here and there, but not prying and emotional and sad like I usually get). I was happy and fun. Don't want him to think he can't vent his own feelings to his bro without making me sad.
On my front, I did 2 things for ME that REALLY helped. I called a friend and spilled the beans. She was REALLY helpful. Just venting felt GREAT. Then I joined this board and that is wonderful. I feel so much more normal about this. Why don't we, as women and people, talk about things more with each other? Most of the time we end up feeling like failures about "normal" phases in an R. Of course, I totally take blame, but you know. Also, I wish these R books were a HS/college class....do you remember ANYTHING from calculus? What has trigonometry done for your life?
Well, we had a jovial converstation while he walking out the door to work. He said that he was good at talking about uncomfortable things with people. I laughed, jokingly, and said, "ah, no, not with me"...and he admitted, also laughing, "yeah, with everyone but you." I joked more, hugged him and asked "why...why did you avoid talking about things from our dating past and now..." He said it was because he was afraid of hurting me and hated seeing me sad. I said that was sweet, I understood. BUT, still joking, I said that we had to be open with our feelings, it hurts to tell the other things, but it's the way that we can be close. I said I wanted him to know that I was laughing, joking, and would not take anything sadly, etc, and to express himself. He said that is like asking him to be someone he is not. I said OK, but it's something I would like to work on, at his time.
I know that that convo was probably ANTI-DB, but you know, it's kinda like him justifying the one thing he did to hurt me, not talk about things, apologize, etc. I know why now, but still...I am sure I can justify n=my behaviors, but I don't (well, I explain, but not say that I won't change).
I know it's small, but it's a big issue for me. I cannot live with someone who continuously refuses to talk about uncomfortable US things because of fear of hurting me. I have to wonder how much of that is really true. Is there something more? Who knows.
Until then, I will look at the positive for today. We at least laughed off a really serious point between us. Good step that we were jovial. At least I showed that I was not traumatized, and that I could end the convo. I will not bring it up again. I think little attempts like this make a difference that he can trust me not to be sad (really have no idea where this paranoia came from long ago, I think it's more rooted in guilt). Saying sorry and expressing yourself and anger is not easy, I did that, wish he would do the same. I know I am being selfish here.
To me, talking openly about things is HUGE. It's the way I feel intimate and close. I guess it's something to work on. I am letting go a little on this, so maybe he will meet me half way and give a little.
When he returns, we're going into town to shop for the week. Hope to make a jovial day with him.
One day at a time. That's all I can do. Patience is definately NOT a strong point for me, so maybe the upside of all this is that I hone that skill.
Thanks for your encouragement....a good grasp on things? Hmmmm, I wonder. I think I try very hard to deeply think things through, and that helps me from falling apart. I have used it to really make changes in me. But, I still get impatient and panicked at times....need to work on controlling that.
Update: Had a nice time on Sunday night. Unbelievable, H initiated R talk during dinner out (could be 2 beers too). I took the chance to let him talk (of course, I get nervous and fill in silence, ugh). We took a different approach (unintentional), kind of like looking at your M through a documentary...like you're watching it on TV and can make comments w/o getting emotional, defensive, etc. He did get defensive of his part, I did not say anything about things he did. I took all blame. He explained why life was hard. I told him how his reactions made me feel...he was volatile, angry, miserable all the time. Of course, said this much nicer. Of course, he got irritated hearing it. I stopped. He said that he did the best he could, and anyone that thought otherwise was insane. (OK, so much for taking blame for your part, who cares). We went to watch a movie that I wanted to see, I told him he did not need to come, because in the past he would have thrown such a fuss in going. I did not want to deal with that. He actually wanted to go, which showed me that he made an effort, for once, to do something he did not want to do, to not be an angry grump about things. I thanked him kindly for that. I want him to know that I appreciate the little things he does. In that way, I think he does realize the things he did before.
I really wanted to be alone from H, but he wanted to hang out with me, but wanted to give me space if I needed. I opted to spend time with him, which was good. I just needed space to process thoughts w/o asking him ?s, etc. BUT, turned out that time spent together was good to get reconnected. This entire weekend was a lot for me to process. Coming to terms that his family hates me, and that is rough and largely unfair.
Yesterday we had some good talks, sort of. I casually brought up things, the concept of soul mates, what makes a good M, etc. He talked a lot (of course, we did this while painting, so a buffer of activity). I noticed that a few times he was irritated when I expressed how I felt during our M, and he simplified ini an offensive manner how I felt about things he did ("you needed someone more fun" "I was grumpy").
This morning, I woke up in a funk. Mostly because I feel that I have been repenting like crazy the last few months and he is still cold, does not touch unless I am crying or he wants to ML, etc. That is OK, I can accept that. BUT, he has always had troubles admitting things he did. Always finds excuses why his behavior was OK. Never once said, Yes, you're right, I was hard to live with. I am sorry. I know that is expecting a miracle, and he was patient with me, but it's something that I know won't get better. It's something I really need. So I did something I now regret but might follow through with. I called him and asked that we have a chat this evening about things that have been on my mind.
I am going to be calm, and just say how I felt, not what he did (remove direct blame), and tell him how he made me feel. How it was difficult. I am not the only person who saw this. I could have done better to deal with this, but sometimes it was so hard, I was under a lot of stress too. I know it is repetitive, but he still does not hear it. He thinks I overreact, while I am not the only person who saw this about him.
I feel I am being petty, immature, but I am also so sick of sucking the blame, while he has always had issues in apologizing or confronting what he did. At the same time, he praises himself in thinking that he always confronts his faults (what a JOKE--not with me).
I think with him, it's not about making me feel sad, but feeling so bad about his guilt that he would rather not face it. But, i am somewhat resentful that I have had to grow up, face my mistakes and take proper note of it, and he never has.
I need to get out of this slump so tonight I will not be mean. I just want to be fair. To me and to him. I know I need to be patient, but I feel that I am being nailed so hard for this. I am not asking him o change, just to let him know my version of the story.
Maybe by tonight I will see that it's petty, and I don't have to always bring up the things he did.
I know that I have no PMA, am being bratty, and immature. i am in awe of how wonderfully many folks on these boards handle things, and I am taking strength in that and will pick up by tonight. I just had to vent, however stupid my thoughts, so I get it out and don't act on it.
I know he's trying and admitted wrong and that he was could have been a better H is hard; it was hard to admit that I could have been a better W. I understand that. BUT, it's also good to talk, to vent and to get the story straight. I can let things go, accept, etc. but there is a limit. I will be gentle because I think he gets it.
You know that talking is what makes you connect emotionally, what is the trigger for your H to connect? I also love to talk and be conversationally intimate with my H. We never did it often enough for me, but I do remember a conversation when we were in our beginning stages. We were on the phone, and he dumped every one his past regrets on the table, told me to ask whatever I wanted, he wanted to start with a clean slate. That was one of the biggest things he ever did for me, and he did it on his own. He did that once. If I ever tried to bring those things up again, he shut down. I don't like it, but it's how it is, he's not proud of those things, and does not want to be reminded in conversation. But he told me that once, and I cherish that.
Is his fear of hurting you, or of what you will do with the information? how will you react, what has been tradition? will you bring it up again and again?
You use the words "I cannot". whew! be careful! I thought that way a lot before I got here. And I prefer to think that I haven't reduced my standards, but I have adjusted my goals. For now.
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
First, let me say that I am being VERY emotional today, just feeling at the end of my rope, and glad that I vented here and to myself than tonight. Just in a foul mood that should pass. Mostly, it's because a bad day at work that highlighted that I have lost my focus these past few months and have been obsessing about M (which is not BAD) instead of balancing focus on work too, which means a lot to me. I was mad at myself for that. I have to focus on redirecting and I think that will help ease the tension and increase PMA too.
H called and I think I sounded a little terse, just told him my feelings about the day and loss of focus, he agreed (he felt that was Sat). I then said that I wanted to talk to him just briefly tonight. I was a little mean, quoting him in saying that I knew what I had to say would not be profound enough to elicit dialogue from him, so it would be quick (basically using his words----BAD, I am feeling sorry about that).
I thought a lot about what I would say, and if it's worth it. You're right WCW. My H HATES repeated past stuff, and talking about it again and again. I should understand that. I should let this go. I will mostly (trust me, most of my tirade is gone). I will just stick to the points, which I guess I have made before, but in a very accusatory way. Yes, I amguilty of bringing things up again and again. I do LOTS of things that shut him down, which I am trying not to do.
BUT, I think I deserve to tell him how he made me feel. I think he really glosses over the intensity of what an angry person he was for years. How that impacted me. I fault myself too, but it's hard to hear him gloss over it and say that he did his best. I won't make a big deal of it. Just make a quick point of letting him know what really happened from *my point of view* Then I will let it go, because that is what M is all about, right?!!
I think I will cushion it around that I understand what he went through at work during those years, but this is how it made me feel. Just so it's not a lot of finger pointing.
At the end of our convo, I heard him go quiet, and I just blurted "I can't wait until the day that we're not living in discomfort anymore" and all I got was "OK"
I REALLY need to stop being so down today, it's coming out of my mouth and every pore and I am not usually like this. I have to pick myself back up. It's just that I am usually the positive one in our M, and I guess I just felt like letting go for a bit.
I'll drop by again when I've got more time to make some real comments that are thoughtful, and maybe helpful.
Fellowship 'round here can be cosy. 