Where's my pot of gold?

[always_14]

Hey Strong,

Hope today is going good for you. Take a breather. Thanks for posting on my thread...always helpful insight.

Hmmm. I can see bringing up his negative points is tough...but then again, this is something that he needs to address...also part of your fear and trust in him. Like you and Sage agreed...how about going to a MC, let that person bring it up (you said that it was not successful in the past, but maybe when he hears it again, it'll sink in?)...that way it's not tied to your issues with him. And, I agree that you should keep the R talks to scheduled times. My H was in your shoes...not wanting to talk. Last night he said that he hated being with me, much less my insistence on talking, ?s, emails, etc. BUT, he also says that the talks are what brought us here, and were the best thing. I was much like your H, always anxious to talk, out of guilt. So, we did scheduled weekly talks, for 30min-1 hour, calm, productive, with notes if needed. Not 1-sided. Just tried to really get to issues, or vent anger, etc. Painful, but helped. I too did too many times when I asked "how do you feel, where are you now" and I reading what you wrote, I am ashamed. I will STOP NOW. THanks.

Re: euphoric feeling. Well, I just had this hit me on the head this week, you saw on my post. I think I was waiting for that too, and then when H brought home dessert, I thought, maybe this is what LOVE is about, euphoria is what attraction is about. H and I admitted that we don't feel the "spark/giddies" about each other: is this something we lost as a byproduct of this, is this a natural thing to let go of, or are we just too nervous and fragile to feel that way now...our guards still too high, trust still too low. I think it's the latter. I know when I see him that I can feel that way, I do when I think about him. But, I have to be in a good space, clear my emotions.

If he's so stuck on the euphoria, ask him what he means, specifics. After all, you weren't with the 2 during the A. Geez. Maybe you can work on this a little. And tell him what you need. That way he sees that you are all about the goal of euphoria too, and you also get some of your needs met.

Easier said that done. Hang in there, it will get better.

[StrongEnough]

Hey Always...... going to check in on your thread in a minute and see how goes things for you.

Bringing up my issues with H's manipulation and control are very difficult. He gets very defensive and very angry. When a C mentions it, then he says that counselor is just "siding with me because____(insert another million and one excuses he can find) We have tried counseling so many times over the years. Both IC and MC. H usually makes it through two sessions and finds fault with the C. It's very frustrating when he thinks he has made strides as a person and become a better person because of his R with OW, yet he is still afraid to face to fact that some these ugly tuths may be right on.

Yes, if your H is anything like me, the talks HAVE to stop. Checking temperatures is not a wise thing to do. TO the person who feels there is too much talk, it ends up pushing us further away.

I did read your post regarding contentment and peacefulness and I even mentioned it to H this morning. (did not mention it came off this board) and he totally disagreed with it. I WAS present during their affair (it happened in this house) and they seem to have this "bond" the giddiness of a new R and the sexual sparks that go along with it. (why the heck else would anyone have sex with OW in the house and right under his children's bedrooms)is my conclusion and I thank the lord that although I was here, I didn't witness the act itself. Like I said, she lives hours away and I used to have her come spend the weekend for what I thought was shopping trips. THey were trips to sleep with my H. I could feel a connection between them and asked him about it (pre-bomb) and he denied feelings other then friendship. (Don't they all??) He tells me that she made him feel desirable, and wanted sexually, etc. They had that euphoria. That is what it means to him. The passion behind the kissing and ML. Those things that tend to slowly fade away in marriage. So, I guess I do understand what he is looking for. The problem lies in the fact that we are not NEW. We have been together for over 11 years. That euphoria is gone. That doesn't mean desire and passion are gone...well they are for the moment....but I don't think it will ever be like that again and he is setting himself up to want to leave this M. Between that and his refusal to face his demons...there is nothing I can do but sit back and watch.

Ahh....my needs....yes, um, what were they? Haven't been discussed in so long. Oh yeah....the need to build trust and the need for him to still try when he is feeling "angry" or whatever and not ignore me like I am a piece of crap..right now that's all I ask and I think it's too much because I just don't get it.

I'm glad that through my rantings and ravings you were able to get a little insight to help your sitch. I guess that is one of the main points of this board, is to gain insight through other people's experiences in addition to posting.

Hope you are having a good night. I am following your post....and having some Toasted Almonds. (fresh outta beer here)

~Strong

[always_14]

Hey Strong,

I agree, it's a tough one with your Hs resistance to see his faults and to see a counselor. Do you go to IC? If not, perhaps it's something to think about, since you have a lot of emotions that aren't best aired in R talks with H. Also, they might be able to give you additional avenues to bring H around in this area. But, as they say, you can only make changes to you, H will change in his own time. I do realize, though, these are things you need from him to bring your M to being whole again. Really, perhaps a MC or IC will know what is best to do. It feels as if you have done everything to try to get your point across. So, as Sage would suggest, how can you 180 this? What could you do differently, see this from another view, to jump start?

Ugh...sorry about the A and OW story. That must have been awful for you to go through, and YES, so glad that you didn't witness with your own eyes. So, it seems that sexual affection is really big for your H, based on what you said he got from OW and from your last posts. Of course, your ability to give this is linked to your feelings of him having an A. Besides sexual, is there another way that he felt "wanted?" Emotionally? I know this is a big thing for my H and other Hs, feeling that Ws stop caring or needing them. It's a hard thing to start "needing" someone and reaching out when you've had your trust violated or have gone without for so long. But, these may be your baby steps. Think deeply of things he got from OW that excited him...what needs did they hit for him. I know it's weird to think this way. Of course, you're right, the whole concept of constantly wanting euphoria...and you know, I think it's the biggest misconception that it lasts forever and does not melt into a lasting more contented love. When we stop feeling the euphoria, we think it's time to move on, instead of seeing what it changed to...something stronger. I think it's why spouses can return to their M after an affair, they see that it was stronger all along.

Really, I'll say it again, I think your H is REALLY fogged right now with his experience, and his guilt. I think he's desperately trying to make sense of things, and is having a hard time accepting that while he feels guilty he DID have an experience that made him feel good. He gave it up. It's a hard contradiction. I also think that with what you told me, he's really phobic of people thinking badly of him, of him feeling badly about himself (the furious denial of manipulation, anger at counseling and facing things, anger at you being mad at the A in suicide threat, etc). I think it's something he fears will push him over the edge. I think he feels it would wreck him to know that you hated him for what he did...sounds like he places a lot in your perception ofhim (and then OW perception of him) and this could be tied to him not having close family or friends. Guilt is a hard thing to face, makes you feel really low. Hate to ask yo uthis, but do you think he might deal with depression? My H did for a while. It could be something that makes him unable of facing the feelings of guilt.

OK, I'm no phsychologist, so I'm just talking here...just trying to see the connections...sorry if I've stirred things or got it all wrong. Ignore me.

[StrongEnough]

Hi Always...

Not hung over...lol....I had to take my D10 to Boston today for a Dr's appointment. Went well. (She has a chronic illness) I found out that she tested postive for thyroid antibody, so now we have to watch her for thyroid disease. Beautiful.....more things to worry about with her health. But for now, all is good, she is growing and gaining weight, her last TSH was normal. Keeping my fingers crossed.

I do go to IC. I love my C. She is very insightful. H does have a serious when it comes to his fault. I think you are right, in a way, H doesn't like to be judged by anyone. How other people perceive him is a big deal to him (although he will deny that too) I don't think you are off on the derpression, I think he would benefit from an antidepressant. I know that depression stems from us not wanting to deal with our feelings and then things spin out of control for us and we lose our ability to cope. I, unfortunately, am prone to depression. I was told that this time I will have to stay on the antidepressants for many years. Depression runs in my family. For H, depression and alcoholism run in his. So, I think you make the correct assessment there.

Other then sexual, what did OW give him that he needed? According to H, the feeling that she needed him and wanted him emotionally and physically. He looked me in the eye and told me he didn't love me anymore, he loved her. So, they must have felt a lot of love between them, or they both mistook the euphoria for love. I guess that is where I screw myself and him. Emotionally, I am very independant. I am very independant in many ways. I am not the codependant type and I think that is what he is looking for. Someone to not only want him, to be need him in more then just the emotional sense. OW was very unstable. She has 4 kids with her xh and is a very needy person. She was unhappy in her marriage, and so were we, so I guess they filled each other's void temoprarily. Then, I think the unstableness became too much for H to handle when she got into drugs. He is very much against drug use. We found out the she had gotten pregnant with H's baby one month before he and I reconciled. She had an abortion. H says she never told him. She called him a lot during this time, so I give him the benefit of the doubt, but my instincts tell me otherwise. Her xh recently emailed me telling me she was engaged and 7 months pregnant with yet someone else's baby. This entire situation turned into one long soap opera series IMHO. I guess that's the best insight I have into that situation right now. H doesn't want to talk about the A much anymore, to him it's a dead issue. To me, it's not.

He is starting his IC counseling tomorrow. He is going to the same office I go to, just seeing another counselor. I really hopes that she can help him face and deal with his isues without him resorting to any stunts. I believe he is in a fog, but again he will say otherwise. To be honest, I find it so easy these days to question myself as to why I am even bothering to try.

Well, that's my sob story for the day. I will hop on over to your thread and see what's up with you.

~Strong

[always_14]

Strong,

Sorry about D10...I hope she feels better...that's a tough age to be going through hormonal illnesses. Sorry this is tough on you too--I'll keep her in my prayers.

Hey, I used to live in Boston and H is from NE, born and raised! Ahhhh, how I DO NOT miss that cold winter...but a great part of the country!

Did H initiate going to IC on his own? Your push? Part of his win back? Whatever, be open minded. He may change. I hope the counselor can see that confronting his weaknesses and mistakes is a big issue and take it slow with him. Let's give him the benefit of doubt...maybe the depression issue will come out too...

Glad you're seeing a C. I hear you on depression and alcoholism in families...both H and I have both (yeah, we're a nice couple!!). BUT, we watch out for it. I'll be honest, I think that it's what contributed to lots of our probs the last few years. Hs job was tough, and he went into a phase of being absolutely miserable and unhappy and angry for years....that really wore on me and was hard. I started to think he didn't want to be with me..yada, yada. I had the same thing going on. Hey, if a pill can take it away, what are you waiting for...life is plenty tough on it's own.

What a flipping mess with the OW!! Geez. I am SO VERY sorry you had to go through that. Just hearing it now, I want to give you a hug (from the SW to NE, here come my LOOONG arms!) Considering the details, you're handling this great, H has to see that it's no quick fix to his quick mess. I know your independent, and this must make you want to push back even more. But, you're in a M, you have to need a little, just like you give a little. Just like you felt discarded, not needed when he found his needs in another woman, I think it's what he probably feels with your independence. Really, it's a human desire, to be needed, can you start slow with this? In small ways?

It's the great paradox: as of the last 30yrs. Women are more independent, educated, working, and running families...I think this causes a lot of disruption to the American nuclear family as we knew it. DO NOT GET ME WRONG....I DO NOT mean to say that I think women should not work or be educated--furthest thing from it (it's part of my fundamental value system that women move up and out), but I think we just have to start looking at M differently, as an institution. Start coming up with new rules, or learn a few things about human dynamics in relationships...that Hs have the desire to be needed in ways that we women are not used to projecting. I dealt with this too. It's not old-school...just human nature.

SO...seems that H wants a little "needing him" from you. Can that be so hard? Try one small thing this week. It might help you feel closer to him too...to break the disconnect and to reach to him. I'm not saying you're not doing this...

Yep, gonna pour that beer and start on some major baking here...got some overripe bananas that are screaming to belong in a bread

Have a nice night.

[StrongEnough]

Thanks for the prayers for my daughter. She doesn't currently have thryoid disease, she has diabetes but tested positive to the antibody so it's a wait and see game now.

LOL...cold weather? Yeah, I agree. I would love to move to a warmer climate but H doesn't want to hear it. (Although he hates the cold too) As it was, we had a snow and hail storm yesterday that I had to drive through to get her to Boston. What nornally is an hour and a half ride turned into just short of three hours. My S2 wasn't very happy about that!!

H didn't initiate counseling on his own. For the last year, he has fought against it saying that he didn't need it because he knew what he wanted. (That statement still blows my mind) At my urging, he finally agreed to go to counseling. He is hopinng that the C will help him deal with his anxiety a little better. He seems to have low expectations that he will get anything out of it. I hope he gets some antidepressants. Today is his first apointment so we shall see.

I have been trying in earnest to think of ways that make H feel needed. Maybe I am just closed-minded, but I can't think of anything positive that would make he feel needed. I don't think I know how to reach out to someone. I am so used to being a "complete unit" within myself. I know that sounds weird, I hope you get what I mean.

On a positive note, H and I watched tv in bed last night. I initiated cuddling with him. It was nice. After we were done watching our show and shut the tv off, he still seemed disappointed about something. I asked him if he was falling asleep, he said no. I was ready to so I told him that, kissed him goodnight, told him that I love him and he rolled over a bit frustrated. Again, just makes me feel like I can't do anything right. Then I wonder if it is more of the same with his controlling nature. That he keeps raising the ante as a way to control me and force me to keep stepping forward towards him? Any thoughts?

~Strong

[Bowtech]

StrongEnough
Your husband was hoping for you to make a move on him for sex. He is not going to tell you that. When you were cuddling with him, that is what flowed through his mind in hopes that you would know that. I had that problem at one time. I just wish I would be able to be with my wife again in order for her to see the changes.

[StrongEnough]

Oh, and about the alcoholism and depression. It also runs in my family too, as well as drug addicitions. So, I am not immune to the lifestyle of an addict or alcoholic. I lived through it much of my life. I know that H had it a lot harder then I did. His parents got D when he was very young. His D is the alcoholic. He was constantly shifted back and forth between the two. His mom would meet a new guy and send him to live with his dad, his dad would be drunk 24/7 and H would have to fend for himself. Eventually, when he got to his teen years, his living arrangements became more unstable and he would rely on living with friends and their families, or who ever would take him in. H really had a tough childhood, and I know that has a lot to do with the way he is today. It's also why he isn't close w/his parents. I don't think he ever felt loved or wanted by them after their D.

So, his dad is an alcoholic and his mom is on her third marriage and she's had A's in the past. Not a strong moral support system there. I hope he can address this in C. I think he feels he is over it since it happened so long ago.

~Strong

[always_14]

I agree with Bowtech, I think he wanted things to take a sexual turn--he pretty much stated that it's a strong need for him. I'm not saying that you jump into this, just saying that it's the root. He's not always raising the ante, the goal is always the same....nightly affection leads to sex.

Why not gently, VERY lovingly (while still cuddling), tell him how you are very attracted to him, and that you know it's something that means a lot to him, you're trying with small steps to work toward that--like cuddling, etc. Sometimes he's so focused on his end goal, that he could be missing your steps as progress (I get that way at times), esp since he's so focused on making this right NOW. He needs to be reminded that you CARE about him, LOVE him, and this is your way of working on it. It will get there. Maybe, if it's right, explain to him what holds you back, and what you may need from him to make you feel better. It's such a strong need for him that he might actually be willing to meet your needs to get it (manipulation, who knows, but it's a real link, right?).

I know you're independent. But face it (and I'm saying this directly, as a FRIEND!)...you're married. You need to give your H a reason to think he's necessary, just like he needs to give that to you. A basic human yearning....try to think of something SMALL, even. Just one think this week. C'mon, I know you can do it. So, what is it? Think of anything he's said in past discussions/arguments that indicated it's something that meant a lot to him tha tyou did w/o him, or w/o needing him. Ex: little clues from my H. He likes it a lot when I wear jewelry that he gives me, tell him how pretty it looks and compliments I get. I'd never thing to do that on my own, or make an extra effort to wear certain things..but it means a LOT to him...he'll joke about it. So I make a point to wear his stuff often & it makes him feel proud.

It's small, but a start...

Now, your turn.

[StrongEnough]

Thanks Bow and Always.

Bow~ I know you're right. He has said it so many times that bedtime causes him a lot of anxiety because he "waits" for me to be interested again and make a move. Since I am not there yet, I guess I just don't want to face it. Also, I don't like hurting people, especially H and I know that he is hurting over the situation. THen comes the trouble of deciding do I just do it and hope that I come around? He WILL notice if I'm not really "into" it and I don't know what that would do to him.

Always~ YOu're right too. His goal is always the same. I think that pushes me away a little. When he compliments me, it's always on how I look. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and I do have my own personal demons when it comes to self image problems, but I guess maybe if he complimented for being a wife, mother, friend, anything that would make me feel it was genuine and non-sexual, I wouldn't get pushed away so easy and feel that all he wants is sex, not a good mother for our children, not a caring wife, not a best friend.


Thanks for the 2x4

I know you're independent. But face it (and I'm saying this directly, as a FRIEND!)...you're married.

We talked a bit about this yesterday. He said that he appreciates my independance and doesn't want to feel needed as much as feel wanted. HUGE difference there. I am trying to take small steps to show him that I want him here and that I want to work on this M.

We both had C yesterday. My session went very well. H had his first appointment and he likes his C, says she actually very intelligent. So, hopefully he sticks with it a bit and doesn't run away at the first thing he hears that he doesn't like.

Had some interesting revalations yesterday. Almost like an epiphany of sorts....throughout the last year, I have been doing EXACTLY what I didn't want H to do, and that is focus sooo much on repairing this M. I did that too, and in the process took the focus off of working on myself, for me. The DB stuff came rushing back to me in an instant. I remembered it all, everything I had worked so hard to acquire. I then realized that I had actually done a lot of personal growing despite my negativity. Unfortunately, as I have grown H has stayed status quo at a standstill. I have to wait for him to catch up now. We discussed this and he agreed. We also discussed the possibility of when we grow as people, we may grow apart and not together. We are different people then we used to know and that is difficult for both of us to get used to. H sees me not being attached to an outcome as a negative thing. I told him that it isn't negative, for me, it's positive. That I know if we don't work I can go on with life and be happy. That's when I finally got it. H just wanted reassurance that IF we didn't work, it would upset me. Once I spoke those words, then he felt liked I actually cared about saving this M. I said it, so now it's time to walk to walk.

All in all, I am trying to look only at the positive things from now on. Dwelling on the negative doesn't help anyone. Not me, not my kids, not my H and certainly not my M.

H has been depressed since C yesterday. Rehashing all the hurtful things wasn't easy for him. I told him I understand what he is going through and I was proud of him for taking the step and going, and I thanked him. He said, "Don't thank me, this is for me, not for you" By Golly, I think he's got it!!!!!

Ok, that is my book for the day. S2 is getting into something gotta run for now. I will check up in on how everyone else is doing when he gives me a minute.

~StrongEnough