Where's my pot of gold?

[StrongEnough]

Always....you have such insight it amazes me!

H did have a real issue with guilt. After we got back together, it seemed to go away. Not that he doesn't feel guilty, but that the guilt doesn't bother him anymore. I guess he feels that since he got his W, kids and house back, there is no need for guilt to stand in the way.

I do agree with your assessment that he thinks it benefited us that he is a "new man" because of her and that our M will be better because of the affair. He says that now he knows it's me he loves and wants to grow old with. It only took sleeping with my friend, destroying the lives of six kids and ruining two marriages to get there.

I guess you are right, there is nothing I can do about it.

I would love to share a lot of the stuff off this board with him. The problem with that is he gets instantly angry if someone tries to offer insight on him. My C thinks he is controlling and manipulative. I did see a lot of manipulation on his part while we were seperated. But, that infuriated him. If she hadn't met and spoke to him and offered that assessment, then fine, I can see where he is coming from. But, that wasn't the case. She made that assessment based on a session with him. He was livid.

He is a great one for using scare tactics. One New Yeat's Eve, he and I got into it, and I asked him for a seperation. He flipped out and starting slamming his head on the refrigerator, denting it. He acts out a lot when angry. That helped my C make her assessment as well. She suggested I read the book "The verbally abusive relationship". My mom had it and gave it to me. He got p!ssed as heck that I brought that book into the house.

Since we got back together, he always told me that if I didn't want to be with him he would make sure the kids didn't lose their home. It's the only home they know. He already changed that to my ex-bf would have to help support me because he ASSumes I would run right back to him.

So, you see where all my frustrations and negativity come from?? He tells me he loves me, tells me he wants this to work......but then he says all these terrible things and has these horrible reactions that make me not want to open up to him.

I guess I feel stuck and I feel that is an awful place to be. Not that I don't want things to work, but I want him to consider all the above mentioned things and he doesn't want to. My parents are very materialistic and have already told me that I should commit to him 100% or risk losing everything. So I also feel like I have a lot of pressure coming from them. Sometimes I just want to run far, far away. Have you ever felt that way? I'm sure I can't be the only one in this position.

~StrongEnough

[StrongEnough]

Ok, it's late at night and I am sitting here steaming mad trying to calm down.

H has been "off" all day. Not himself. Very distant. Tonight, we were watching tv and he fell asleep on the couch. I told him to go to bed. He didn't. He stayed up and watched the end of the show. So, he comes out and tells me he will meet me in bed. He never does this. So, when I get in bed I asked him what was wrong.

He told me that yesterday he addressed certain needs of his that weren't being met. One of them was cuddling in bed. Last night, we went to bed and I was going to cuddle with him until he made a remark that made me feel bad about myself and self conscious. Naturally, I didn't cuddle with him. So he mentioned that. I told him about his comment and how it made me feel. Although I wasn't yelling, he could tell that is was something that had aggravated me. So, he just said "I'm not going to fight with you" and rolled over and turned his back to me. I then told him that I thought it was nice that he request I hold off on my sleeping pills until right at bedtime (they take an hour to work) so we can have QT talking and cuddling and he's sleeping on the couch before we even get to bed. Right when I am ready to get up, he then asks if I would like to try the discussion again more calmly. I told him not after he turned his back to me and went to sleep. And I got up.

To me, this just confirms that he emotionally left this relationship a while ago. He is starting to act like his old self again.

I am just glad I have this board. I come here to do brain dumps of the things that I can't say to him to keep the peace.

So, I don't know what to make of this sudden "I don't care" attitude, except that he just doesn't care anymore. His needs aren't getting met in a timely enough fashion and he is upset. Makes it seem like this all has to be about him.

Does anyone have any insights on this?

[always_14]

Hey there. Hope your morning is better.

WOW. Lots to read from your posts. Though H was being needy and not nice, he did say that he wanted to talk calmly. You are really mad and your patience is like a thread, so you didn't take. BUT, he did ask if you wanted to talk calmly. AND, your comment was sarcastic, so he turned his back b/c he really didnt'want a fight. I know I'm being direct (sorry, no sleep...see on my post), but I also know b/c my H is just the same. It's so frustrating, but it's a defense mechanism against possible anger. H thinks: "I see angry W, run, hide in shell..." And that's about IT. No nothing.

He's feeling insecure about the cuddling because, again, it all goes to GUILT. He is in a rush for this to be the same b/c he is testing how badly he screwed up. Hence the justifications of the A, etc.

Sounds like your H is also a bit emotionally manipulative. That is a LOT to deal with. Not just fights, twisting of words, but the suicide threats and hurting himself and threatening you with child care....not good. I'm sorry that he refuses to see a counselor. I think there may be some depression, anxiety or something there. This is really hard to deal with....Without getting in a fight, have you tried to tell him how it makes you feel manipulated? pushed away? scared? That you want to work on these things, but those behaviors need to STOP IMMEDIATELY?

Is there someone he trusts that can tell him this, without saying that you told them? Some way to get through to him.

I know no R talk, no making a person change, but this is also a little dangerous. Unless, you think that it is triggered by something you say/do/react that you CAN control with YOUR actions?

Hang in there....try to tell him today that you appreciate that he wanted to talk calmly with you, and that you should have taken that. Like a compliment for him to take the high road for resolution.

[sage]

SE,

Once again, I will take your posts in order though I have thoughts on what has transpired most recently...

This is not an ASSumption. H has flat out told me that he needs me to put forth 100% into this R. He expects me to be totally 100% committed emotionally, physically and otherwise. He doesn't want to hear that I can't give that. In HIS mind, it is unacceptable to expect anything less.

It seems to me that you guys are having a LOT of R talks...and that they don't seem to be working particularly well right now. Can you break the cycle of chatting about your commitment, his commitment, etc. and just DO some stuff together? I know you said you have nothing in common but eating out...start there or find something new! Even a walk around the block, going out for coffee, something that doesn't involve picking at your R.

Also, I think you should consider what your most usual response is to h's demand for your 100% commitment and do a 180 on it.

And finally, are you sure that your h isn't equating your 100% commitment with your fidelity? IOW, is anything less than that to him a sign that you may be stil considering outside options?

1) Are we testing each other?

There is a very good chance that that is what is going on here. Maybe we don't want to face it or admit it.

I would say a resounding "yes" to this...every post I read from you seems to be about one or the other of you torquing the other person up in one way or another.

2) Physical closeness. Try holding his hand, etc.

Well, I have tried. Last night we cuddled in bed. WHen he realized that my sleeping pill was kicking in and it wasn't going any further, he got aggravated and got out of bed. This is a recurring issue. If I give even a little bit, he ASSumes it will lead to sex. It frustates me and it frustates him and then we end up giving up. It's SO easy for us to give up.

How about babysteps here? Why not start with the physical closeness on a much smaller scale and OUTSIDE the bedroom????

H is finally going to start with a C next week. My C suggested that we are nowhere near ready for M counseling, but we can try and see what the M counselor says. My C was going to do it, but the one session with the two of us became an hour of H talking about HIS needs, HIS problems w/me, HIM, HIM and more HIM. Not US like it was supposed to be. Right now we feed into each other's anxiety. We both need to get better control of ourselves and our anxiety before we can take a step forward. If we don't, it will be the same old cat and mouse chase.

I'm not an expert but you guys are having SO many R talks, it scares me a little bit to think about you in MC. If you DO go, maybe you can create a moratorium on R talks outside of MC? And balance out the MC with some real positive times together???

Also, what did you LEARN about h's needs during the session? Always a good place to start...

Sage

[sage]

And I always have my cell with me. But, like H told my counselor, how does he know I am not meeting my ex-bf at the mall with my mom. To me, is sounds ludicrous. <snip> He has also questioned me a couple times if I would have an A for revenge. I was like WHAT???? I guess it's discouraging that we have been together for so long and sometimes I still don't understand his thought process.

Gosh, which part don't you understand? Seems to me your h is saying "I really screwed up and I know you have other options. I'd like some reassurance that you're not going to be unfaithful to me because of what I did to you."

And right now, whatever ambivalence you are communicating to him is making him wonder...but your above paragraph seems pretty clear that you don't plan to cheat on him. Have you told him that?

Sage

[sage]

To me, this just confirms that he emotionally left this relationship a while ago. He is starting to act like his old self again.

What about you, SE? Is it possible that you are acting like your old self, too?

How could you help h break this cycle?

Sage

[StrongEnough]

Always....

This morning is a little better. Sorry to hear that you had a rough night, but at least some good came out of it in your sitch.

I know my comment was sarcastic, and I suppose there is no excuse for it except I was waiting for him to bring it up. So when he did, I got angry.

I have told H many times that I feel he is manipulative emotionally and controlling, I have given him examples of his behavior that make me feel this way. He gets angry every time and totally denies it. I am not going to get anywhere with asking him to stop. He doesn't think he does it. He doesn't trust anyone as far as talking goes. He isn't close with either of his parents. He has no friends.

We had another discussion this morning regarding last night and his needs. He said that he wants that euphoric energy back like when we first met and when we first got back together. Until he feels this, he told me he will always doubt that I truly want to be with him. I responded with the fact that we haven't even begun healing properly and that these feelings will take time. He as usual, disagreed. We went around in the same darn circle for about an hour, with no resolution. We both stood our ground. Ridiculous, I know. He called from work later and said the he would "suck it up and deal with it until I have that euphoric energy to give to him". I guess he thinks that marriage is a continuance of courting and that euphoria should never go away. I disagree. Marriage is much more then that temporary high we get.

I read your post and will drop by in a bit and leave my .02 cents for ya'. Thanks for helping me so much.

[StrongEnough]

Sage......

It seems to me that you guys are having a LOT of R talks...and that they don't seem to be working particularly well right now

Yes, unfortunately we are. I have told him that he is too focused on this M and spends way too much time thinking about it and asking me about it. I never initiate R talks with him, he is always the initiator.

My usual resonse to giving 100% is that I don't have it to give. I really don't know what a 180 would be without lying to him. I think he does tie it to my fidelity and my intentions and whether or not I am still considering other options. To answer another one of your questions, I have flat out told him many times that I would not cheat in order to retaliate and that he should know me better than that. I am not a cheater and never will be. He even admitted that that was the one thing he always told himself "Well, I know no matter what happened, she would never cheat on me." Now he has doubts.

As far as stopping the talks, the chat about commitment levels, etc. I have tried. He tells me that he is only expressing his feelings and that is how heis now. He talks about what bothers him. But he doesn't talk as much as he questions. It's a vicous cycle and it gets us nowhere. I can see this, he can't. I would love to focus on other things sometimes other then what's wrong with our M. But, he has to be willing to do the same.

Yes, we do torque each other up. I think if we didn't always have to talk about our R then it wouldn't be so bad. Frustrations and emotions run high when R talk happen so often with us and pushing each other's buttons are our strengths, not agreeing to disagree or come to resolutions. That is why I am pushing for MC, maybe if a MC told him to back off on the talks, he might listen.

[StrongEnough]

What about you, SE? Is it possible that you are acting like your old self, too?

I am in no way, shape or form perfect. On some things, I am my old self again. On other things, I am a much stronger person. I use to be the one bringing up the R talk. I used to be the one who always expressed my feelings. I used to get angry when I felt he was coming after me and I would fuel the fire and let it get out of control. I no longer do those things. I am my same old self when it comes to physical closeness. I have always been the type of person that really has to feel an emotional connection to get any physical urges. That includes hugs, kisses, etc. That is the most difficult thing for me to change. I have been putting forth more effort everyday to give H unexpected kisses and hugs like he asked for, only to have him tell me that they are useless without the euphoric energy I referred to above. He doesn't commend the effort, he just complaims about what he doesn't get. I do this even when he is quiet and obviously distant from me. I push myself to walk up to him and hug him, give him a kiss and tell him I love him. It just seems that no matter what he asks for, when I do it, it's not good enough because _______(insert a million and one reasons that he can think of.)

I have no idea how to break the cycle Sage. I feel like I keep hitting a wall everytime I try to not act like I normally would. DO you have any suggestions? Am I missing something in my fog??

Thank you so much for making me stop and think.

[StrongEnough]

Also, what did you LEARN about h's needs during the session?

Nothing that he hasn't already mentioned.
1) He needs 100% effort, 100% commitment from me.
2) He needs more affection from me
3) He needs me to completely open myself and my heart to him and let him in.
6) He needs me to trust him again.
7) He needs to me make him feel like OW did. (Wow, that is tough when you see it typed out)

His needs seem to change as quick as our New England weather. Kind of like a game, once I reach the level of meeting a need, he ups the ante. Once he ups the ante, I feel defeated and useless. Like I am just not good enough to make him feel secure, wanted, loved and needed. Then, another brick gets put in the wall and just makes it even harder for me to let him in.