Quote: I am just waxing philosophical today I guess in the absence of no real news on my front today. Anyway, be careful that you are not just being friends because it's what SHE wants, or for the kids. Be friends because you realize that it's what's best for YOU right now. You should never give up your dream of an intact marriage but neither should you cling to an image in your, or HER mind. I think you are going to be fine in this decision, you just need to stick to it.
TMU
TMU you are so right! I need to be friends becasue I want to be friends! I want us to be 2 strong individuals that are seperate in our growth and indivduality, and allow us to share in our strength to grow together! My friendship with her will never die, and I have to go back to the start 14 years ago when we first met! We became very close friends instantly then became romantically involved! But there was the chase involved! She pursued me! Now she is pushy me away! I have to change that and that comes from changing myself! Thanx TMU you have really helped me out today! I know we both need to relax a little and let the chips fall where they may without trying to control or predict the outcome!
Flaneur! Thank-you for insight! I need a womens point a view! I must listen to you and not bring up the R or the Om no matter how hard! I even past the SOB on the road during lunch today as I drove home! The emmotions were overwhelming. I need to let go of the expectations and start with a clean slate!
Ny said Instead, understand what your woman is really saying, what she's all about, why women do and act the way they do, be their rock and support for that's what they need from us, want from us, and look to us for. A man who inspires her to be the woman she is, to be fully feminine, and feels free and comfortable to be that woman, for which she'll love you even more. To find your higher purpose, and stay connected to your higher purpose, and share yourself lovingly with her.
They want a mate, not a girl friend.
This quote form NY has stuck in my head all afternoon! I need her to be free and find out for herself what she wants. If I interfer she will always resent me and when we get back together it will be another hurdle to overcome. I want her to be strong and independent, and so do I!
I have a question after all this. My W goes from working on our R then uses that she needs to work on herself before she can work on the R. Is this just an excuse or is this a reality for her? I want to work on the R and myself at the same time how can you move forward as one falls apart and the other gets better?
Tim
my story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1049617&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
My W goes from working on our R then uses that she needs to work on herself before she can work on the R. Is this just an excuse or is this a reality for her? I want to work on the R and myself at the same time
Your W is the one making the most sense here. Sounds like she sees stuff in herself she knows she has to work through first before she can be any good for the relationship.
And if it turns out to be that it's a stall or an excuse, you'll find out soon enough. Watch actions instead of wondering about intents.
how can you move forward as one falls apart and the other gets better?
You are right NY my W does see that she needs to work on herself, and I have to let her! The R wil have to be put on hold, but I just do not want her to slip away! Control again...have to realize she needs to do what she feels is right for her and trust that our R will survive!
Tim
my story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1049617&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Not so sure how much I can add here, but its very true that we need to loosen control and let them develop in their own way. At bottom, I want to be friends with my wife, heck, that's how we started. Sometimes I lose sight of that myself and end up focusing on my needs and thats how I get into trouble! Yet, I sometimes can't help the feeling that when we interact this way, that we're just both "whistling past the graveyard" so to speak.
In any event, its important to identify whats best for her and for yourself as well.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
knew this was coming from Deida as I read your post.
I think it worthwhile to point out here, especially since many LBSs seem to be into "either or" type of thinking and anger, that Deida is writing about life for a man when he's with a woman who wants to be with him... not a WAW, though there's some stuff that may apply and certainly, all his points are well taken.
Thanks for adding to my comments. Your observations are what I was trying to say. Women do not (and should not) need to be submissive, being a man means YOU are not submissive - in any facet of your life.
And for those who read my post, no where did I say being a man meant to be mean or an A*hole.
Quote: totallymessedup:
Am I seen as a "man" by my W if I am sitting by, basically letting her do what she wants even though it goes against everything I stand for?
Probably not, but it's not because of the 'sharing'. She has already devalued you and your relationship in HER mind. That's why she is having an affair. And, since women generally tie 'love' into sex she 'loves' OM and has decided she doesn't love you 'enough'. To her everything is perfectly fine and if you put your foot down she will go to the other side.
Besides, there is a difference between your 'higher purpose' and your 'values'. You are treating her like a possession. You (and myself too) are applying logical values to illogical feelings. As NYsurvivor said, Deida is more for 'existing' relationships. But I found a lot of it to be useful right now too.
Only when she has weakened in her 'love' for OM is she going to be actually noticing anything you do. And that does NOT mean you are to be a prick. Deida's book 'The Superior Man' is really good to read. My (female) counselor thought it was very much right on with it's descriptions of how women perceive men and how they need to be treated to feel loved.
I found it to sometimes be difficult to understand because you really had to THINK about what he is saying. And yes, it is aimed at existing relationships but is very useful in all aspects of your life.
The past 20 years has seen the feminization of men in America. It isn't that we need to go back to being mean pricks or anything, it's just that we need to go back to being men. Go get the book or look it up on Amazon
My favorite excerpt:
Quote: She doesn't really want to be number one
A woman sometimes seems to want to be the most important thingin her mans life. However, if she is the most importnat thing then she feels her man has made her the number one priorityand is not fully dedicated or directed to divine growth and service. She will feel her man's dependence on her for his happiness, and this will make her feel smothered by his neediness and clinging. A woman really wants a man to be totally dedicated to his highest purpose - and also to love her fully. Although she would never admit it she wants to feel that her man would be willing to sacrifice their relationship for the sake of his highest purpose
Sound like GAL?
IN the book the example is of a man about to go to war. His woman says she doesn't want him to go. However, if he were to stay she would be happy at first but sad later knowing that he chose to abandon his higher purpose (serving humanity) to be with her.
Think about how Lois Lane felt when Superman gave up his powers to be human so he could be with her....
Its amazing to me how much courage and tenacity I can gain from reading all of your words of wisdom in these posts. I see a lot of myself reflected in the thoughts of TMU and Tim. I have a lot of issues with esteem and my control is usually in the form of some manipulation or the other. I have to learn that I cannot manipulate this situation at all. I also need to reconcile being a friend and being a man. I have so much to learn here, but I think I'm on the right track. Most importantly for me at this moment...stop the pursuit! Its easy to say, hard to do, but I really think that is the key here.
One thing I do empathize with...how is it that she can give you the world in one breath (reconciliation) and tear it away in the next? I guess that comes from the guilt that they feel and its simply because they are not ready to offer the world.
TMU, Tim, Frank and everyone else that contributed to this thread, thank you dearly. I'm beginning to restore balance here.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
A woman sometimes seems to want to be the most important thingin her mans life. However, if she is the most importnat thing then she feels her man has made her the number one priorityand is not fully dedicated or directed to divine growth and service. She will feel her man's dependence on her for his happiness, and this will make her feel smothered by his neediness and clinging. A woman really wants a man to be totally dedicated to his highest purpose - and also to love her fully. Although she would never admit it she wants to feel that her man would be willing to sacrifice their relationship for the sake of his highest purpose
Sound like GAL?
IN the book the example is of a man about to go to war. His woman says she doesn't want him to go. However, if he were to stay she would be happy at first but sad later knowing that he chose to abandon his higher purpose (serving humanity) to be with her.
Think about how Lois Lane felt when Superman gave up his powers to be human so he could be with her....
Anyway, it's a good book after the third read.
I ain't no Superman, but it sure made me think about my situatuion! We seperated in April becasue we were supposed to move to a new city to "advance" my career! In the end she stayed and I moved! This lasted until the end of Sept when the 5 hr drive between the cities was too much and I did not want to become a weekend Dad! So I quit my job and career of 11 years to be closer to the kids and give our marriage a fighting chance! AS soon as I moved back we almost recounciled immediately and she moved in full time in mid Nov! So my question from this quote is I did give up my supposed life to be with her and the kids and that made me extremely happy, but does she think it happened too fast and am I needy?
Tim
my story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1049617&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Quote: o my question from this quote is I did give up my supposed life to be with her and the kids and that made me extremely happy, but does she think it happened too fast and am I needy?
Tim,
I have very mixed feelings about these kinds of theories, as I have posted before. It seems like we are being asked on one hand to be better communicators and listen to what our wives are saying (in my case, stop being away so much) but we are to read into that and come up with what they REALLY mean. In practicing affirmation and empathy you learn that one of the most important things is making it clear to whomever you're communicating with that you understand what they are saying so there is no guess work being done. So in this case, would it go something like this?
You: Hey honey, I am moving to advance my career. Her: Ok, but do you have to? Y: Well, yes, why don't you come too? H: No, the kids would be better off here and I also have friends I would like to stay near. Why don't you go ahead and we'll see how it works out. Y: Ok, you are saying that you don't want me to go but you understand. You think that the kids and you would be better off here while I explore my career options. H: Yes. That is how I feel. Y: Ok. Then I will do it and we'll talk about how it's working in a few weeks.
....few weeks later... Y: Hey honey. H: Yes? Y: How are things going? H: We miss you and wish you could just work close to home. How do you think things are working out? Y: Ok, I guess. I miss you too. It seems like this job is paying better but I am less happy than before. You also seem to be saying this is hard and you want me to find another way to work without living in another city. H: Yes, that would be nice. Y: (and here comes that theory) Well, I know you SAY that, and you confirmed that it's what you want but I also know that you will really not respect me if I come home now and deep in your "womanhood" you need me to stay true to my career, or "higher purpose" in order for you to continue to look at me as a man. So I really think you want me to stay away and continue with things as they are. H: Um...ok...well, no I really want you to be home with me and the kids. Y: That's what you think now but...
You see how I'm thinking. I know it's a pretty ludicrous, and simplified way to look at it but it's how I see it. I am trying to get AWAY from guessing what my wife wants. She has never gotten around to telling me so far and my guesses so far (and by the way, I HAVE stayed true to my higher purpose to no avail in my wife's eyes) have been really wrong. I suppose I am just suspicious of theories that have me guessing based on stereotypes what someone else is going to do or think about something. I know you hear it ALL the time, but my wife is different in many ways from a typical, feminine woman. I don't know. Waxing long today I guess...
I thought about it... and I feel that serving the higher purpose is being true to myself! I look at my move as somethig that served me and my higher purpose! I gave up alot but I gained my kids back which is worthe everything, I gained a second chance with my W (still working on that), and I gained a new respect for myself that I can face these challenges in life and come out OK. So does that subscribe to the theory I am not sure! But one thing I do know is 10 or 12 years from now when the kids may start asking questions about what happened between mommy and daddy at that time in our lives I can proudly say what I did, and not be ashamed of it regardless of what my W thnks right now!
Tim
my story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1049617&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
I know I was supposed to kick your W's butt, but I think I'm going to have to kick yours instead.
Just caught up on your sitch and all I can say is this: You're stressing me out man. If you're stressing me out, think about what it must be doing to your W.
You and I both need to let our spouses pursue us for a change. Think about it this way, nobody wanted to be friends with the annoying guy/girl in high school who followed everyone around and looked pathetic. This is no different. That is what we've become in our H/W's eyes. They still love us, but they do things out of pity, not real love and respect.
So when she asks you to stop pressuring her, just say "OK" and then leave it alone.
I've been thinking about your response to your W asking "What makes Tim happy?" You probably need to spend some time thinking yourself. What really does make you happy? She asked a valid question. Perhaps she is thinking about what makes her happy. It would be a good thing for her, and for yourself, to have an answer to this question.
And, don't forget that whether or not you think things are going well, she came back when she didn't have to and wants to work on your R. As hard as it is, you're going to have to give her some time.
