Quote: I do understand what you are saying...but do you realize that we are going off of what you write? You say it's not as bad as we make it seem...we're only interpereting what you write.
That’s exactly why I’ve tried to repeatedly point out that it’s not as bad as it sounds. That’s why in the past I’ve made a point of saying that we really do get along very well the vast majority of the time. We have similar views and tastes in most areas. Generally speaking, we seem to compliment each other very well. I suspect that there are deeper issues like lack of respect and the NPD, but there are really only about four sticking points: sex, money, animals, and anger. And her temper and anger are much better. She seems to be perpetually mad at one of the kids, but she usually vents at me instead of going off on them. That really doesn’t bother me; I usually just switch on the auto-pilot, she rants and gets it out of her system, and we’re OK after that. In any case, anger is something W did address with the C and she’s much, much better than she was way back when.
Unfortunately, when we come here we all tend to talk almost exclusively about the problems in our R’s, not what‘s good. We may start off with, “H is such a good provider and such a good father to our kids” or, “W is the most kind and thoughtful person I’ve ever met” but then we go on to the problems. And we dwell on the problems. After all, that’s why we’re here. I gave a big list of good things about W to JJ back in her MM days. W and I share values, religious views, and tastes in most everything but music. She’s outgoing and friendly. She’s kind and generous to a fault. She’s taken on D17’s BF as her current project. She’s opened a bank account and is beating the bushes to raise money to buy him a van and have a lift and hand controls installed in it. Like I said on another thread not too long ago, if you were to meet her socially you would like her. You would have no idea that we have the problems that we do. She’s quite gregarious and is very likeable. She’s intelligent and well-read. Let me just say that aside from the aforementioned issues, we get along great.
The NPD does cause problems. The lack of sex and the overabundance of animals and her focus on them cause problems. But so far, I still feel like the good outweighs the bad.
Thanks for pointing out some of her good qualities. It's helpful to hear that on here every now and then...because as you said, all too often we hear only the negative
I'm so glad you were able to come up with things to point out to us rather than an....."I can't really think of anything right off hand." It helps us see why you do still love her.
Bube, You know what strikes me about this last post? Most of it is about how W is with other people. There is very little (none?) about how she is with you. Is she generous to a fault with YOU? Etc etc.
I can't envision a marriage in which I get nothing out of the deal. Further, I can't imagine a family life where my kids steer clear of my spouse and their anger.
I know you have a shared history with her and I really do understand the strong pull that creates. I am not suggesting that you abandon her; I'm simply suggesting that you carve out a life for yourself that does not include her, since she has essentially refused to be a wife to you.
I know it will cause a bunch of strife and trauma in the immediate future but I would think that eventually, when the dust settles, you will find that you are a happier person when you are not having to constantly provide her supply, as well as run interference between her and the girls.
In other words, you are obligated to live out your vows, fine, but you don't have to keep trying to squeeze the lemonade out of your lemon. She's not going to produce.
Detach yourself from her, slowly, I know it will be hard for you, and see if it brings any semblance of relief or balance or contentment in your life. It appears that you've been trying all these years just to get her to contribute to the R and she has failed. She may not have it in her.
Perhaps this is your lot in life...to be married to her...but it doesn't have to be as miserable as it is, kwim?
And I doubt you are the only one to have noticed her NPD traits. Most likely anyone who's come into regular contact with her will have an inkling of what she's like. I suspect that there is a trail of left behind friends and acquaintances who caught on to what she's all about and she cruised thru them like nobody's business. Please don't let that be a hindrance to making a life for yourself..they will most likely figure it out soon enough.
You're right on all counts. And detaching is just what I'm working on doing. I can expland on that on Tuesday. Since I'm a government employee, Monday is a holiday.
This is not a solution, just wanted to say I agreed with NOP about the guilt and religiosity. Thats why I thought your sitch was unworkable. Untill you change your ideas and thoughts about those two things. When you can find it in you to deserve and enforce - yes I said enforce, very aggresive word enforce is--respect from your W.
you said that seperation was unfeasable. You have two homes that you are supporting? you could concievably stay, and put her in the other home? or once it is sold then would have the resources for other alternatives. I would never ever leave and let her stay and reap the rewards of everything that you, or you and her have worked for.
Do you see the big picture in general? are you a network admin? (rhetorical) In this case you have to just take one bite at a time or you will get overwhelmed. Stop looking at how impossible it is to get where you want to go. Just do what has to be done. 1 thing at a time. Write down the steps, like NOP is demonstrating.
As for the dogs. I would shoot em. a .22 cost about $ .05 ? less then the food and water, shots etc.
bring another one home and I would without hesitation put it down. But I grew up on a pig farm in Iowa. So my squeamishness about putting down or slaughtering animals is probably not the norm. They are condemned animals, and your wife is Forcing you to deal with the unfortunate scraps and trash of others mistakes. I thought this long before you posted it, but since the thought has crossed your mind, Ill say it. That is what I would do.
I think if you do this one time and she will not do it again. You can tell her before hand, then let her test you. Dont fail.
your getting some great advice for the different aspects of your sitch.
I dont mind at all that you 'singled me out' before, ZB. I can handle it. Im also glad that you have a new thread going. Your frustration and hurt is understandable and real. The hardest part of dragging yourself out of the mud is finding that first good handhold. Everyone here wants to throw you that Hand.
I still disagree about the guilt and the religion. I’ve tried to address these before, but let me try again. As I’ve said, one of the problems with written communication is that tone is so hard to communicate. Sincerity is another.
First the guilt. I think part of the problem here is that I keep acknowledging that what I did was wrong. Maybe I’m too strong in that acknowledgement, but it just seems wrong to me to just say that I don’t feel guilty and leave it at that. In my mind, if I were to just say that I don’t feel guilty, it would sound like I was either refusing to accept any responsibility for my own actions and their consequences, or like I was so callous and heartless that I just didn’t care. By continuing to acknowledge that I was solely responsible for my decision to have the A and that that was wrong, I’m simply trying to communicate that I know I’ve played a part in the problems and that I’m not unaware that there are consequences of that bad decision. I’m not saying that it still bothers me. I’m not saying that I need to be punished for my transgressions. I’m not saying that I owe W anything to make up for it. I’m just trying to say that W is not the only one responsible for the problems in our M. But the cold, hard fact is that I simply don’t feel guilty any more.
Let me tell you another personal story to try to explain myself. Years ago, not long after college, W and I decided to stop paying rent and buy a house of our own. We looked and looked and finally found something we liked and could afford in a new subdivision, but there were warning signs that should have set off all kinds of bells, buzzers, claxons, and what have you. The builder was a crook, plain and simple. The guy was selling houses to people who couldn’t afford them and who couldn’t qualify for them. He was inflating the prices, offering phony gift letters from some out of state source, and paying down the interest rate for the first couple of years. So a house like we bought was $89K, but he was telling the mortgage company that it was $114K and using these phony gift letters to make it look like the buyer had put down $25K. So with a 20+% down payment, these people were getting loans. They were moving in to these $89K houses with no money down and payments under $500/month.
W and I didn’t do that. We played it straight, bought the house for $85K, and got our own (conventional) financing. My house payments were a little over $800. Maybe you can see what’s coming here. Within two to three years, my neighbors, who really couldn’t afford and shouldn’t have been in those houses had $1200 house payments that they simply couldn’t pay. One by one they all went into foreclosure. I lived at the end of a cul de sac, and I went for an eighteen month stretch where you couldn’t see even one single occupied house from my front yard. Not one. HUD got the houses and started selling them for $45K. I still owed around $75K on mine and had it on the market for a year and a half asking $55K for it. During that year and a half I had one family look at it. One. As HUD sold the houses the neighborhood started looking like a ghetto. Loud music, cars on blocks in the front yards, etc. I tried to get them to accept a deed in lieu of foreclosure, but I finally just let the bank have mine as well.
What does this have to do with my A you might ask. I see lots of similarities. I made a bad decision that resulted in lasting consequences. I should have known better than to get involved when I saw what was going on with the builder and his out-of-state partner in crime. But I let the desire for the new house sway me. I ended up with a foreclosure on my credit. Then the PMI sued me for some $37K to cover the shortfall and their legal costs which resulted in my filing for bankruptcy. Another ten-year credit hit. So now, I can look back and say that I made a bad decision. Maybe several of them. It was my own doing. I saw the signs and chose not to heed them. I suffered the consequences. But do I feel bad about it now? No. It was a long time ago. My credit is fine. I have a much better place to live. It was a bad decision, but it’s long past. Just like the A. I was wrong. It was a bad decision. But it’s long past. Life has changed since then. I have changed. The M has changed. It’s not an issue any more.
Now for the religion. You may have me there. Religion may be hindering me from doing what you perceive to be the correct thing to do. But I’m not hiding behind religion; I’m struggling with it. I admitted to HP a couple of posts up on this thread that it may not be living a Godly life when you carry Biblical precepts to unhealthy extremes. But it’s so difficult to know that or where to draw that line. I’m not going to quote you chapter and verse, but you know that the Bible speaks directly against divorce. We can all try weasel-wording about separation, divorce, abandonment, …, but the Bible says not to divorce. It says to honor the wife of your youth and not to “deal treacherously” with her. It also says that there is a way which seems right to a man but which leads to damnation. Maybe I’m misapplying it here, but my take on that is that I shouldn’t do what I think is right, but what the Bible tells me. I’m not looking for you to answer me here – I just want you to understand where I am coming from and how I am struggling here.
I’m just trying to say that W is not the only one responsible for the problems in our M. But the cold, hard fact is that I simply don’t feel guilty any more
No she isnt. and what we are trying to convey to you here, via boundaries, and respect and setting up consequences is your part of the equation to fix. Without those you will have no chance at attraction.
I’m not going to quote you chapter and verse, but you know that the Bible speaks directly against divorce
I wont go tit for tat, just say that the bible only prohibited it for specific reasons. Not saying you should either. Frankly since you have had this NPD revelation I think the best thing that can happen is for you to reach a point of resignation that allows you to say, 'you know what, I have NOTHING to lose by trying to set hard boundaries, demanding respect, not tolerating W's tirades.' For an extreme example, if she gets loud, angry, strident, over bearing, get right up close in her face and say without any fear or anger--'KNOCK IT OFF.' -- and see what happens.
I just want you to understand where I am coming from and how I am struggling here. I do. Clearly. I hope you can see where we are coming from with the difference between being a god fearing, self sacrificing christian and a doormat who is not being the head of his household by letting his wife dishonor, disrespect him.
But it’s so difficult to know that or where to draw that line. When Gods wife Israel disrespected and dishonored him, she paid severe consequences. He was explicit. He was direct. He forgave repeatedly. Untill he eventually divorced her and made a new covenant.
As for the guilt, your own examples paint you as having changed as a result of mistakes in your life. We all do that. Guilt can be a part of that process. Guilt and the changes it has caused in you have caused you to choose some of the paths you are currently walking.
I would never recommend that you not face the consequences of your actions, and that includes the adultery. However, I think you need to re-examine your choices made years ago as a response to your guilt. The part of the equation you are missing is your wife's contribution to the state of your marriage pre and post affair. By having an affair, your reaction to the condition of the marriage was wrong, but that doesn't negate her contribution to the situation as it existed then or now. That is where the guilt is causing you to make bad decisions.
Are you following me, ZB?
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Apparently not. Somehow, I seem to be conveying either that I’m wracked with guilt over my A, that I’m taking all of the blame for the problems in our M, or some combination of both. None of those is correct. It may well be that guilt caused me to make some of the decisions I made immediately post-A. It’s quite likely that guilt played a part in my learning the wingman lesson all too well. But it’s not true that I’m missing W’s contribution to the state of our M both pre and post A. I am very aware of her contribution. Very aware. So much so that I’m afraid of making it appear that I think it’s all her fault. That’s why I’ve made such a point of admitting my part in the problems. It appears that I’ve been too successful since you now seem to think that I don’t even recognize W’s contributions.
Quote: By having an affair, your reaction to the condition of the marriage was wrong, but that doesn't negate her contribution to the situation as it existed then or now.
In fact, I’m trying to say exactly that. I’m trying to acknowledge that my choice was wrong and everybody seems to be getting that part and nothing more. What I don’t seem to be getting across is that I think W was a major contributor to the problems before, during, and after. So other than the decision to stick with W no matter what, a decision that was based at most, only partially on guilt, I just don’t see where guilt is still playing any part at all in what’s going on now.
Quote: ZB: I’m just trying to say that W is not the only one responsible for the problems in our M. But the cold, hard fact is that I simply don’t feel guilty any more
BF: No she isnt. and what we are trying to convey to you here, via boundaries, and respect and setting up consequences is your part of the equation to fix. Without those you will have no chance at attraction.
Sorry BF, but I don’t get this response at all. I got the rest of what you said, but not this. I understand the need for boundaries and consequences. I’m just having a hard time figuring out what might work when her NPD is factored into the equation. And I can’t for the life of me figure out what any of that has to do with guilt. Would you please explain?
And attraction is NOT a problem. Never has been. First, W does find me attractive. As I’ve said before (and cited examples) W is attracted to me, and is quite affectionate. She just has a problem with sex that predates me and has nothing to do with attraction. I suspect that it’s tied to her FOO and the alleged molestation, but I really don’t know. Secondly, what could be more attractive to someone with NPD than a doormat? If attraction were the issue, then if I’m the doormat all of you suggest that I am, then I should be the pinnacle of attractiveness.
I saw a tiny little step last night. As you know, I told W that she wasn’t to bring home any more dogs until the current crop was all gone. We have three cats and three dogs of our own, but we still have another four rescue dogs she’s trying to place. Three dogs and another cat went out this weekend, so we’re relatively low on animals right now.
Well last night I was in the kitchen helping D17 work on college scholarship applications when we got a call from one of W’s rescue cronies. I don’t know what was discussed, but I heard W tell her that we couldn’t take any dogs right now. In fact, I heard her arguing. She was saying that yes, we do have some empty kennels, but that the kennels need some work and we simply can’t take any more right now. She also admitted that she had promised me not to take any more until we could get these placed.
It helps us see why you do still love her.
Im also glad that you have a new thread going. Your frustration and hurt is understandable and real. The hardest part of dragging yourself out of the mud is finding that first good handhold. Everyone here wants to throw you that Hand.