ZB said: -------------------------------------------- If you really believe that, would you mind expanding upon it? Why do you think that? What have I said that has led you to that conclusion? I don’t think you’re right, but I’m certainly willing to admit that you could be correct and I’m more than willing to explore it and possibly learn something. --------------------------------------------
Did you ever see the movie Top Gun? Among the many lessons that Maverick learns is to never ever leave his wing man. He learns that because he makes a mistake and leaves his wing man, who then gets shot down in a training exercise.
In real life, that is a poor lesson. In real life, there are times when you *should* leave your wing man.
I know that you never ever want to repeat the mistakes of the past, but it seems to me that you have gained an unhealthy sense of loyalty from your lesson.
In my experience, and in the experience of others, sometimes you have to be willing to actually give something up before you potentially might gain it back. I am not talking about some overused adage about love. I am talking about the fact that something changes in you when you finally decide to take action.
Maybe you made a promise to never leave again. If so, then you really need to consider breaking it. That promise made to a person with NPD is a blank check.
My suggestions are as follows and in order of execution.
- Immediately cease all joint projects. - Divide and secure your finances. - Retain legal counsel. - Find out what your legal options and obligations are. - See if you can afford a legal separation with you and the kids living somewhere else. - Tell your wife of your plans to separate unless she is willing to address ALL of the current marital issues - that includes sex and the dogs. - Move out (or not) with kids based on her decision.
It may be possible to force her out, but that would leave you with the dogs.
You will also want to see about full custody. Statements from your counselors would help with that.
You simply have to buck up in order to deal with a person suffering from NPD.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quote: ZB wants to ML three or four times a week, but recognizing that you have a much lower libido, he is willing to content himself with once a week. Saturday morning seems to be your preferred time and that is quite acceptable to him. If this doesn’t start happening on a regular basis, then ___________________________________________________.
"...then I can only conclude you have no interest in working on our problems, and are abandoning me and our marriage. I don't want to end our marriage, but this is your choice, not mine."
ZB, I agree with most everyone here. You need to leave the M. The C and books you've already read have said that she isn't going to change. That leaves it up to you. The C is telling you to leave. Every suggestion that you've been given, you've shot down. Bottom line......you are "afraid" to leave. This has nothing to do with an old promise, religion or anything but you. If you truly want a better life, you absolutely have to leave. SHE WILL NOT CHANGE. The only thing that can change is how YOU react to her behavior, however, you will still not be getting what you want from your W. If you don't leave, you deserve what you get, unfortunately.
I agree 100% with Nop, make a plan and start putting it into effect immediately. No excuses!!! Get out and be happy for the rest of your life. It can't happen under your current circumstances.
First of all let me say I am in no way shape or form suggesting that you leave your wife if that is not what you want. I also am not saying your sitch is hopeless.
I truthfully think HD,Lou,Choc,and your self are just to nice and to giving while willing to except to little for yourselfs. Just my opinion. I am sure some of what you are willing to except is based on a fear. Fear of being totally alone fear of starting over fear of drastic change or some other basis. I understand this not just from myself but watching my mom who no longer has any reason to stay with my step dad now that we have all grown up.(her reasons for staying). Other then the fact that she does not want to be completely alone and knows at her age there is a good chance of that.
You berate me for doing nothing about it, but what would I do? OK, so she thinks, “What’s he going to do about it – NOTHING.”
Berate me is a little stronge. I am trying to simply state instead of talking in riddles and half said read between the lines comments.
The C tells me to take it to the pound. When I say that I can’t do that, he just shrugs and says that I’ll just have to live with it then. Is that really my only choice?
I believe that I was only trying to say the same thing the C was trying to say. You have two choices to take a stand/make a statement (not verbal) or settle for what you have. It is your choice so what comes of it or does not is your responsiblity to live with and make the best of
So what do you suggest I do
To a narcissistic personality, only their needs or desires matter. Other people don’t. Other people exist to “feed” them – it’s called narcissistic supply
I would find a way to stop feeding that supply. How I am not sure. I do not live in your home. So I have no idea of how you feed it. But I would locate that supply and let it run out. And see if that netted me results. And in truth I would never lack enough in selfish nature to even keep trying if I felt there was no chance of sucess so I may not be capable to give you any type of real help. But I will keep trying if you don't mind.
People with this disorder don’t get better.
No but now that you know the name of the beast you are dancing with you can learn to better control your moves. Find a support group that offers ways to deal with not just information about the disorder. The same as we are all here trying to learn from each other how to deal with the sexual dysfunctioning aspects of our relationships. You need to learn from others how to deal with her disorder and the ripple effects it has in your life. None of us sitting here on this forum that do not deal with a person with this type of problem can do anything other then support you. But you already know that. But others that are dealing with it also can tell you what worked for them how it worked and so forth.
I don’t want to ML with W if I have to blackmail her into it. I would rather just MB.
Consequences for not meeting your needs are not blackmail. Not being willing to not live a life without even basic needs being meet is not blackmail. CeMar wants his cake and to eat it to. He wants his wife to not only try to fill his needs/LL but take on his needs/LL as her own. And cannot except that his needs are no more important then hers and will never become hers with his approach. (sorta like your wife who feels only her needs are important and will not meet yours). But that is just how I interpet his situation.
If this doesn’t start happening on a regular basis, then ___________________________________________________.
Lets start here and start forming a answer.
What do you do on a regular basis by choice for you wife that means something matters to your wife. That she would notice and be bothered by if you ceased to do it?
I cannot answer this for you. Because again I don't live in your house and see what you can do and stop doing to cause a reaction or atleast make your wife take notice that something is amuck. But I along with others can stay on track and try to help you by throwing around suggestions or thoughts to see if we can start helping you form a plan to get to your goal. And if nothing else comes from it you will know that you and your sitch matters enough to us cyber people to try to help and support you.
Stop acting like her husband. She doesn't act like your wife and may never have.
Stop feeding her supply, doing her errands, doing the dishes, helping around the house, being kind to her, giving her compliments, giving her affection, saying I love you (do you? Can you love a person who doesn't give back?), etc etc.
Simply remove yourself from the position as her husband, while continuing to occupy the same house. It's your house, no need to move or do anything drastic. But let her know that from now on, you two are co-habitating, not pretending to be married any longer.
As far as the dogs, call one of her dog friends. Tell them to come take the dogs. Don't ask W or wait for her to do it, just call them and say "Come get it." End of story. No excuses or reasons or threats or else's.
Z, I'm sorry that it's come to this. I didn't realize that NPD was unfixable. That is a tragedy.
It's just as much of a tragedy to be a people pleaser married to one and continue to try and fix it.
For the sake of you and your kids, mentally remove yourself from her selfish tornado and work towards some peace of mind.
Honey
P.S. When we talk about "needs", we're talking about emotional needs, not physical ones. She can't argue that one away, Bube, now can she!
I know where you stand on the divorce issue...and while I may not agree with it, I do respect your stance on it. I was trying to come up with things for you to do, but I think Honeypot basically stated what I was going to say as well.
There are other people who are involved in animal rescue/shelters, call on them. I know this is likely to result in a meltdown from your W, but it's setting and reinforcing a boundary....having a boundary without reinforcing it is pointless. She's proven time and time again that she really doesn't respect your boundaries, and that's not terribly surprising from someone with NPD. For a person with NPD the world revolves around them, no one else...that's a frustrating thing to live with I'm sure....and I can only imagine what it's like to try to wrap your mind around the fact that what she has is most likely never going to change, especially with the convictions you have.
I also do happen to agree with those who've stated that by telling her you will never leave...you've removed much of your power. Someone with NPD is likely to take advantage of that. So, if you refuse to think of leaving as an option then you are going to have to do some drastic things within the household to set boundaries....such as shipping off the dogs to other shelters. I know of one here in Oklahoma, a friend of mine here at work runs it....I'll be happy to ask him if he knows of some shelters that can take the dogs you have in.
Ex H had NPD. I know what a painful position you are in. I have to echo what others have said. If you are to stay then you will have to set very clear, specific boundaries that YOU can live with and W will have to figure it out as she goes. Since her world revolves around her the only thing that she will understand is hitting various brick walls called "your boundaries". Not unkindly, but you deserve to have a tenable life too. It turns out that I couldn't live like that because my H was a little further unhinged than NPD - he was also Bipolar and substance addicted. He is still a wreck and the world still revolves around him. He has been through a half dozen women since me. Surprise. Surprise. They won't cater to him, take care of him and put up with bs either. Maybe in time he will learn and be able to have a happy R. I hope so. Despite the issues I am 100% more happy with current H than ex-H. I am confident that we will be ok. I HAVE boundaries now. I didn't then. Z-bube, stay if that is what you need to do but set your boundaries.
There’s probably a lot of truth to what you say. I left my wing (wo)man, it was a bad decision, and I learned my lesson. It may very well be that I learned it too well, but I did learn it. Changing metaphors in mid-stream, it may be that after thirty years on the train I’m just having a hard time accepting the possibility of life off of the train, but your suggestions seem a little extreme to me. I’m in the process of getting control of our finances and getting them separated, but I’m not quite there yet. Other than that one, I’m not sure I’m ready for something as drastic as you suggest. But in any case, I absolutely cannot afford an attorney or a separation at this point. It may be possible once I get W’s spending under control and get some of the debts paid, but not now.
Honey, yours seems like a better plan to me. That’s something I am prepared to do. I haven’t taken it quite that far yet, but while trying to some to terms with the NPD, I’ve been kind of heading in that direction. Accepting that ours isn’t a sexual R was a step in that direction. I guess what I’m coming to realize is that we aren’t married. As you said, we’re co-habitating, but there’s no real marriage in existence.
My C appointment is early next week and I plan to discuss this with him then. I know that we touched on some of this last time, but I was so fixated on the NPD and the ramifications of that diagnosis that a lot of other stuff just went right by me. I do remember that he told me to work on my R with the kids, but I don’t remember what, if anything, he said about my R with W. I know that he told me that I would eventually leave W and that I assured him that I wouldn’t, but that’s all. I guess it’s time to talk some more and form an actual plan.
Chrissy, I know you haven’t berated me. I just couldn’t come up with a better word at the time. How about if I said, “You castigate me for doing nothing about it”? Would that be better? Actually, you’ve given me some very good advice and I really do appreciate it. I’m not going to reply to anything specific, but you are correct in most everything you said. I’m just fighting what I already know to be true.
When I was a senior in high school, I started dating a girl who was a real loser. I was in love and didn’t see it, but she was completely wrong for me. During my R with her, I lost very nearly ALL of my friends. Every one of them told me that she was bad news and I got angry at them and blew them off. Once the R ended and I came to my senses, I learned one of those wing man lessons: regardless of what you might think you know, when everybody else is telling you the same thing, you would be well advised to listen to what they’re telling you. It’s obvious to anyone reading my recent posts that I’m struggling with accepting what I’m being told – but rest assured, I AM listening.
GEL, we had another discussion about the dogs last night. It may not be as strong as some of you have suggested, but I did tell her that she is not to bring home any more dogs until ALL of the current crop of “fosters” is gone. ALL of them. I didn’t follow that with the “or else”, so I need to come up with something to have ready if (when?) she violates that boundary. Hopefully, she’ll stick to it at least until after I’ve seen the C.
