Quote: Well, it has always told me that she was upset that SHE did not have a life but I always encouraged her to. I suppose if I am honest with you, I have realized that my words to her were "go out and have a great time with your friends" but my actions said "ok, now you've had your fun, it's time to make sure you meet my needs now." I would always get upset if she was late, or didn't act particularly affectionate towards me when she came home. I guess I was looking for her to validate ME and it always ended up making her feel bad/angry/stupid for going out in the first place. She was happy, then she came home to me stewing over things that did not even happen yet...
TMU, in reading your posts, sometimes its amazing that I see myself in them.
I basically used to do the same thing, my wife used to be uspet with me when I had a life, although it really wasn't much, but compared to her it was. I used to tell her to go do things, but I found myself acting the same way when she would run late, etc. Scary.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Mama, rob, tim, frank, NYS, hope and anyone else (SO sorry if I didn't name you) who keeps up with my thread, thank you so much. You all mean the world to me right now.
So on with the day's crap.
Today's mood is on the low side of even. I am not terribly upset, nor happy. Yesterday I had my 2nd counseling session. It went well, but it was really just a chance for me to recount my story of the past week and have her make comments on it. I don't know what I'm expecting but I guess I thought there would be a little more structure from her. I LOVE being able to talk to someone so it's worth it for just that, but I also want real help for my self esteem issues and control issues, something that she is well aware of.
I don't know if I am dominating the conversation to the point where we just spend all our time talking about my R or what, but I am going to send my therapist an email asking for us to set goals and for her to try to give me some things to work on to start me along the process of helping myself.
The basic gist of the therapist's message to me was that I really need to start communicating with my wife, something I admitted we never do in terms of our relationship. We have just NEVER really talked/worked on our relationship before which is why its so hard to start now, 10 years in. I want to clarify, my W and I have, to my knowledge, never sat down and started talking about "us". We just "were". We never had to think about it, it just worked...or so I thought.
So she wants me to try to talk to the W about how I feel, blah blah blah. I told her I was trying to leave her alone about that and she kinda wrinkled her nose.
In the end, she said I still need to work on "being there in my soul" meaning not living in my head, living in thoughts, but just "being" in the situation and reacting to it from my heart/soul.
Boiling that down, stop over processing everything and emotionally participate in your life man!
As far as the W and the R, really there was no news from last night. Sometimes I think that hurts as much as bad news.
The most interesting thing was that my W asked about the C session I had and I told her it was good. She asked why the C thought I was there, really asking if I was talking about our R or just me. I said she knew why I was there... Anyway, I said the C asked her to join us but that it was not a pressure thing and would not really work if she didn't want to be there. She kinda rolled her eyes and said "you know how I feel about us so I don't know why I would go." Damn, that hurt, but I casually asked, "well, has your view about us changed in the last couple weeks?" She said she didn't know. I dropped it...
So, we ate dinner with the kids, then I took them upstairs for their bath (which I always do). She was really on edge at dinner, which is not all that unusual because our kids are notoriously bad eaters, and yelled several times at both of them. The edge is normal, but the yelling is a bit out of character for her.
Anyway, as is the norm of late, while I bathed the kids, she stayed downstairs on the couch "resting" before cleaning the kitchen.
After bath time, I stayed upstairs with the boys and she did her thing downstairs. When they went to bed we watched Dancing with the Stars together (sorry) and even had some light moments making fun of the show. I went jogging afterwards, which felt great.
Finished off the night with a shower and went to bed.
She did hug me before I went up to bed.
This morning I did something I have not done, really just to put my big toe in the R water, before I left for work, I lay down next to her in bed and hugged her for a few minutes. She did not resist. Dunno what that means, don't really care much. I may or may not do it again anytime soon.
I only went through all that because I wanted to illustrate that it IS possible to do the friend thing. You don't come out the other side feeling especially good, but it's better than feeling bad.
The problem for me and many of you is that I really need to guard against thinking that since she's willing to joke and spend time with me, that she's willing to do more. That's expectation and mind reading again, two things that are responsible for much of OUR part in killing our marriages.
I am telling myself that the weekend is here. The weekend in my sitch brings with it the most potential for disaster because she will most likely try to make plans with the OM for one day or night and I always end up in my lowest place then. Since she normally sees him in the day when I am working, I can ignore that. When she blatantly goes to see him during what used to be "family" time, it hurts a LOT more.
Anyway, please, comments are encouraged!
From reading your post, it seems that it was more of a balanced day as opposed to a bad one. In the grand scheme of things, that's not bad. But given our expectations, even mediocre days can seem like bad ones.
I have to admit, I guess so far I'm fortunate that W hasn't taken family time to spend with OM yet. I'm emphasizing yet, because I'm sure it will come about. As far as I know, she's used personal time from work and some time in the morning (at least one occasion that I can verify) to see him. I guess when the time comes, I'll be low once again. Oh well, can't dwell on it.
Its strange, but reflecting back, I can't really ever remember W and I talking about our relationship either. Neither one of us are good at opening up, and in fact, I am probably more apt to discuss feelings than she is. Part of who she is. She has never been overly affectionate and willing to part with emotions.
One bright note, she didn't say she wouldn't attend C session with you....there's hope there. Its obvious that's she's curious about it.
Dancing with the Stars??!!?? jk
In any event, it appears that you have stayed the course for at least another day. I wish you all the luck in making this day better.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
I have stayed the course and thanks for pointing that out. I guess I deserve a little credit for that. I had moments where I didn't want to for sure! It really sucks to be this far along in a marriage and realize that not only will it take work to preserve/save but that you have not even had a basic foundation in your life from which to work. My wife too is the non-communicative one. She just keeps everything inside and maybe it erupts much later, or just stays in forever, poisoning her from the inside out...and everyone around her as well.
I was thinking, reading hope's thread, that it's interesting how we all talk so much about the pain of being in one-sided relationships, or empty relationships, devoid of love. We talk about this being the worst pain of our lives and how we can't bear it. Well, I am not really playing the devil's advocate...ok...I am... My wife says she's felt that way for YEARS. If that's true, then can you imagine your spouse, whom you so clearly love, going through what you're going through right now for days, weeks, months...for years? I can't imagine it. Maybe we need to give them a LITTLE credit for something. I don't know what because they did a piss-poor job of communicating their hurt to us (or we did a piss-poor job of listening to them try) and ended up taking the easy (ok, not really) way out and walking into the arms of a human hallucinogen. I am just trying to get to that elusive place where I can truly understand my W and maybe really let her go on the journey she needs to get better again. Ah, but then again, if I don't think she's on the right path....
You bring up a good point. Right now I believe that I'm in such a ones-sided relationship, but I can recall comments from W in the past years that really seem to make sense now. Whether or not it was true, I can remember her telling me that it felt like she was "just there." Hmmm, I know how that feels now. Two years ago, when I was the guilty spouse, after I came back she never accepted (until recently) that I came back because I loved her. She believed it was for the kids.
So yeah, coming to a deeper understaning of my wife is one true goal that I have in all this. It may not save the R, but in the end, I will be a better person for it.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Interesting concepts on the lack of R talk over the years. I thought about my WAW and I, and we did have many R talks in the early and mid years of our 13 years together, and we seemed to have kept things at an even keel. But after the kids (2001+), the R talk stopped. We just existed, I thought happily. Little did I know that W was going through the mid to final stages of the WAW syndrome.
So I guess it might be good, while things seem okay in your relationship, to talk about how things are going. Keep batteries in the marital barometer. A lesson I learned all too late.
TMU- You have been commenting on my thread, so i wanted to catch up on your sitch. I do have comments to make, but i don't know if i can think of all of them, so you might hear from me more than once today.
Having been at this for almost 14 months, i can tell you that you will have bad days, good days, horrible days, happy days...it is a roller coaster. But, it does get easier.
What i have learned over all this time is: 1) Stop thinking about your W and OM. I know it sounds impossible, but really, what purpose does it serve? It only hurts you, and you are hurting enough already. 2) You can only control yourself and not your W. I had to tell myself that if my H was going to spend time with ow, then he was going to figure out a way to do it, and nothing i did would change it. 3) Don't snoop! Again, serves no purpose. If you confront, they will probably lie, which hurts. And if you don't confront, you are stuck with this information and that hurts too. 4) Don't ask about the OM. Again, no guarantee she will tell the truth. And, it isn't about him. 5) Accept what your W is willing to give right now, b/c chances are she feels its the best she can do. Pressuring her for more only makes her angry b/c you are not hearing what she is saying/asking for.
I will share with you my feelings when my H used to bring up helping me around the house (when we still lived together)...i thought it meant he didn't think i could do a good job. And that made me angry and resentful and i pushed him away. Look where that has gotten me now.
I am a non-communicative W, with a H who liked to talk about feelings/emotions and our R. Years ago, before all of this started, I couldn't do it...it wasn't in my nature...i didn't know how. And i felt like if we talked about it, then i had to admit there was a problem and i didn't want to do that b/c i felt like it was my fault (i've struggled with depression). So, i thought if i ignored it, it would just go away. Perhaps your W isn't ready to fully accept her responsibility in the breakdown of your M.
What i have learned is that i need to be my H's friend right now. And that works. He is ambivalent about what he wants and i am using that ambivalence to my advantage. We did have a R talk around Christmas, that i initiated, but before that we really hadn't talked about the R since October. I can tell you, it made me feel more relaxed and i think him too, b/c he realized he could spend time with me without worrying i would start bombarding him with questions about the R and ow. Imagine if the sitch was reversed...would you be comfortable spending time with your W if there was the threat that she would start asking questions about your R and ow? Probably not, b/c that is anxiety producing and puts too many expectations on the WAS. Lower your expectations of her. I had to do that, and it has helped. My H can't give me more right now, so i accept what he can give me and remind myself not to expect more, b/c i ain't gonna get it.
Okay, i think that is enough for now. I don't want to overwhelm you. I hope some of that was helpful. Have a good day.
Quote: I am a non-communicative W, with a H who liked to talk about feelings/emotions and our R. Years ago, before all of this started, I couldn't do it...it wasn't in my nature...i didn't know how. And i felt like if we talked about it, then i had to admit there was a problem and i didn't want to do that b/c i felt like it was my fault (i've struggled with depression). So, i thought if i ignored it, it would just go away. Perhaps your W isn't ready to fully accept her responsibility in the breakdown of your M.
Wow! That sounds like my wife exactly!!!! You're not her are you...lol... Seriously, the idea that she doesn't want to admit something's wrong fits her to a T! Her way of dealing with problems is to sweep them under the rug, especially between us. She too suffers from bouts of depression that have their roots in things outside our marriage, and of course, inside it as well. I wonder if you have any advice on how I get her to open up, or if she will eventually do it on her own?
Quote: I can tell you, it made me feel more relaxed and i think him too, b/c he realized he could spend time with me without worrying i would start bombarding him with questions about the R and ow. Imagine if the sitch was reversed...would you be comfortable spending time with your W if there was the threat that she would start asking questions about your R and ow?
This too is a major revelation for me. Of course I have heard the "don't pressure them" and "the'll run if you keep talking about the R" advice but until I read what you wrote I never put myself in her shoes. Even if I make the "pink elephant" something other than an affair/relationship, and say it's something else like a problem with my job or something else, I would not want to be with her if I knew at any point she may start asking me about the issue I didn't want to discuss. That is great insight and I would LOVE to hear any more perspective you have on my sitch. I will read all day long!
Quote: So I guess it might be good, while things seem okay in your relationship, to talk about how things are going. Keep batteries in the marital barometer. A lesson I learned all too late.
Yes, that seems like an important lesson for me to have learned but in my case, my wife refuses to admit to any problems or concerns she has until it becomes a cancer inside her. It's very frustrating for sure!
My two cents and this is based upon my own experiences in being the WAS. Talking about the R and OW was a real bummer to me in so many ways. Even though it had ended, I used to dread coming home to be bombarded with questions and pressure. I can remember so many uncomfortable times when my spouse and I would be somewhere and someone would mention something that I knew would remind my W of the EA and I used to cringe on the inside, knowing full well that I was going to be involved in a night-long conversation about it.
In any event, to the best of my meager abilities, I have been taking my own advice and I have found that in the short time that I have been doing that, she has been so much more receptive to just talking. We've actually made each other laugh and smile during this time and last month, I never thought that was possible.
I guess I'm fortuante that my W actually does admit wrongdoing, heck, she's apologized for it countless times.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
jk