Well, I am back down in the dumps today. It's a day removed from what I saw as a possible breakthrough and things are back to normal. No physical contact, no nothing past casual interaction over daily life. At least she didn't "go out" last night. I am just so afraid that she sees only two options here; 1) Leave me and go be with the OM 2) Stay in the marriage and be miserable. If she is unwilling to explore our marriage and get in touch with the feelings that lead to it's demise, then how am I ever to expect her to see there is another way. Sure, I am changing myself, but that doesn't mean that the financial problems won't be there, that there still won't be times when I have to be gone for a night, that we still don't have a babysitter and that she still has this image of me not being a social person who likes to go out. I want more than anything to just ask her out, no strings attached but again, we have no babysitter and in the past when I have tried to arrange one, she has shot me down saying she would do it and wanted to know the person. Also, a $100 night (with a sitter, dinner and whatever else it would be that) is not really feasible right now and would just cause her more anxiety because it would put a strain on us. I feel like I have so few options to improve my sitch. I feel like this sitting and waiting deal is only giving her more time to compare the relative freedom of her "new life" with the ultimate suffocation of her old one and like I said, a lot of the suffocating things in our life cannot be dealt with by therapy and me changing my ways. It hurts so much to feel like you're just sitting by letting a boat drift out into the ocean with a line sliding right by you and you just watch it go, never grabbing the line to stop it. I want so much to make this work and I know that idea of "making it work" or fixing the situation is what got me in trouble in the first place but I just can't help it. I feel as lost, or even more lost than I did in the beginning of this. I don't cry nearly as much but when I do, it's for really simple things like seeing my wife with my kids or just her smile. See, I'm doing it now just thinking about it. I think I've said I don't know what to do about a thousand times since this started and I'm saying it again. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to live with this pain. I don't know how to live with the uncertainty. I don't know how to live with being so passive when I want to fight so much. Am I doing something wrong?
Ok, I am going to approach this from a different point of view. I'm angry right now and I'll tell you why. All this time I have been trying to figure out what I did wrong in my R. Sure, there are plenty of things BUT the all pertain to my R with my wife, not necessarily to any other part of our life. Why does this make me angry? Well, in going through this process I am trying to improve myself, GAL, and all the other things the books tell us to do. Well, my W only sees me around our house and I have ALWAYS been helpful with the housework, kids, and anything else that needed to be done. I have always been the one to ask her if she needed anything done. I have always been willing to go whatever extra mile needed to be gone for those kind of things. I always ask her how her day was. I always make sure she has time away from the kids to get things done, or have time for herself. In short, while I neglected some of the (ok most of the) romantic aspects of our life for FAR too long, the other things that she could complain about have been really good. So this leaves me trying to improve on areas of myself that would only be evident to a person interested in me romantically because as a roommate I am great! I am not trying to prop myself up here. I am just expressing a different kind of desperation. How can I demonstrate my newfound ability to listen, validate, empathize and be a good friend and husband. I know I still have a long way to go but she's not even looking for the road! Like I have said in the past, it is precisely the fact the I have a life that she resents me so GAL is almost counterproductive in terms of winning her back. In my sitch it would almost be like totally giving up for me to just start going out with friends or being gone any more than I already am. So here I am, living on a message board, grieving for something that isn't dead yet and looking to you all for something. Like Tim said in one of his posts, I feel like I am waiting for one of you to give me "the answer" but I know how silly that idea is. If you had it, you'd have used it on you and wouldn't be here right now. That said, if you do have an answer for me..please tell!
Why does this make me angry? Well, in going through this process I am trying to improve myself, GAL, and all the other things the books tell us to do. Well, my W only sees me around our house and...
So, bottom line is that it makes you angry because you're frustrated. And you're frustrated because you're not getting the results you'd like to see.
But she's on her timetable, not yours, so you need to cultivate more patience and have zero expectations about it.
I have ALWAYS been helpful with the housework, kids, and anything else that needed to be done. I have always been the one to ask her if she needed anything done. I have always been willing to go whatever extra mile needed to be gone for those kind of things... In short, while I neglected some of the (ok most of the) romantic aspects of our life for FAR too long, the other things that she could complain about have been really good.
First of all, it could very well be that it's in the *manner* you help out that she finds dissatisfaction. That may simply be her problem and not yours, I don't know, I don't live with you guys so as to see what's really going on. IOW, you think it's helpful, and it may very well be, but there's something about it that, for her, makes it seem not helpful, even if it's originating from her and she projects it onto you. For example, when you ask her if she needs anything done, most women may say something like, "Oh no, not really" but they're really thinking, "Well you should know. I've told you a hundred times I like it when you wipe the plates dry as I wash. Why can't you get that through your head? And you know once in a while it would be nice if you just went ahead and washed the dishes yourself."
Or maybe it's like she's thinking, "Yeah, you dust, you clean... and then I have to do it all over again because you do a crappy job of it. I know you're trying to help, but it doesn't help".
Or maybe it's: "It'd be better if you just stopped asking me and went ahead and do some things, take the initiative. Do I have to tell you everything? What a guy!"
So this leaves me trying to improve on areas of myself that would only be evident to a person interested in me romantically because as a roommate I am great!...
How can I demonstrate my newfound ability to listen, validate, empathize and be a good friend and husband.
You think it's just the romantic area, it may be that, but it could be more than that. You can't romance someone who doesn't want to be romanced by you, however, so unless that's not the case, save romance for when it's wanted.
But opportunities to be validative, listen and empathize, that occurs with every contact you have. Practice also on others around you, all others. These are not skills honed on just one person, to be used on one person only. A master artist doesn't paint only one painting, saving all his efforts for that. No, instead, he paints all the time, and therefore brings his skills up and is ready for the moments that present themselves.
it is precisely the fact the I have a life that she resents me so GAL is almost counterproductive in terms of winning her back. In my sitch it would almost be like totally giving up for me to just start going out with friends or being gone any more than I already am.
If she resents you having a life, that's her problem. You do have your own life, and it's healthy too. No, I'd think her problem is that she's personalizing that aspect of you, and in her attitude, maybe fighting it. Good. Don't give it up, it's your life not hers. Instead, she'll have to eventually stop fighting against it, and if she doesn't, that tells you something, doesn't it?
It's that you don't seem to be doing the things that may help you better. For example:
I am just so afraid that she sees only two options here; 1) Leave me and go be with the OM 2) Stay in the marriage and be miserable.
So, YOU are assuming what she's thinking, and further, YOU are seeing her options as either one of two. That's "either or" thinking, and life doesn't work that way. Life is more like, "either or, but then maybe this or that, unless... but then... and if... then... unless... but should this or that, unless..." and it goes round and round forever
If she is unwilling to explore our marriage and get in touch with the feelings that lead to it's demise, then how am I ever to expect her to see there is another way.
If she is unwilling to explore our marriage and get in touch with the feelings that lead to it's demise, then that's the way she feels and thinks right now and you have no control over that, so let it go. Instead, simply work on changing her reasons for thinking that way, vis a vis working on yourself and making your own strides and changes earnestly, because your self is the only person you can control.
You haven't given her reason to reconsider yet, though you think you have. She's not ready to jump back in.
Look, it's very common for LBSs to feel "Hey! I've made the changes now (though those changes are in their infancy and perhaps not very possibly fully rooted yet, nor are they complete, but partial and there's still growth to do with them, as genuine changes are not accomplished in the space of a few days, weeks or even months), and just because the LBS feels "ready", that doesn't mean the WAS does, as the WAS is way ahead on the path and has long ago emotionally disengaged themselves from the LBS. It's impatient and selfish and unrealistic to expect others to respond just because we deem ourselves ready.
Sure, I am changing myself, but that doesn't mean that the financial problems won't be there, that there still won't be times when I have to be gone for a night, that we still don't have a babysitter and that she still has this image of me not being a social person who likes to go out.
"But"? All things to work on step by step.
I want more than anything to just ask her out, no strings attached
Try it, aim for something real casual perhaps, so it doesn't seem like a date. Start with taking a walk after dinner, perhaps. Or doing something she likes to do.
but again, we have no babysitter and in the past when I have tried to arrange one, she has shot me down saying she would do it and wanted to know the person. Also, a $100 night (with a sitter, dinner and whatever else it would be that) is not really feasible right now and would just cause her more anxiety because it would put a strain on us.
Her concern is maternal, and there's also the financial consideration, true. You can't get into the habit of doing all the time, but perhaps sometimes. What can you do to make her feel comfortable about a babysitter?
I feel like I have so few options to improve my sitch. I feel like this sitting and waiting deal is only giving her more time to compare the relative freedom of her "new life" with the ultimate suffocation of her old one and like I said, a lot of the suffocating things in our life cannot be dealt with by therapy and me changing my ways.
First of all, I note a couple of "I feel" this or that... feelings aren't facts. Let go of that, just deal with what is.
Insofar as you "sitting and waiting", don't.
If you "feel" you have no options, you're likely to continue seeing things that way. How do other people manage this? Many do. Find out how. Where there's a will, there's a way, right?
It hurts so much to feel like you're just sitting by letting a boat drift out into the ocean with a line sliding right by you and you just watch it go, never grabbing the line to stop it.
Again, make it your resolve to stop thinking those negative thoughts. Negative thinking brings with it its associated pain, and leads to further negative thinking.
I don't cry nearly as much but when I do, it's for really simple things like seeing my wife with my kids or just her smile. See, I'm doing it now just thinking about it.
What I just said, right? I'm not saying not to feel your feelings, I'm staying find methods to stop producing those kinds of feelings, stop manufacturing them. That starts with thought control. Sure, it's not easy... at first. But only you can stop the pain you're giving yourself. It's also helpful to know your plan, to stay on track with it, as having a positive plan will help dissipate you feeling helpless, boost your confidence and give you positivity. Try it, you'll like it.
Quote: So, bottom line is that it makes you angry because you're frustrated. And you're frustrated because you're not getting the results you'd like to see. But she's on her timetable, not yours, so you need to cultivate more patience and have zero expectations about it.
So true. Thank you for letting me see the obvious.
Quote: Or maybe it's like she's thinking, "Yeah, you dust, you clean... and then I have to do it all over again because you do a crappy job of it. I know you're trying to help, but it doesn't help".
Dead on again. Actually many of the things you said in this section were things either I have heard or know. I guess I was feeling a moment of self pity when I posted these things...She never really thought of what I did as help, more me trying to not feel bad about all that she did around the house. Point well taken. Wish I could have taken it much earlier from my W! On a good note, I do take initiative and don't ask anymore. This started before the bomb drop though but I guess not soon enough, or this really was not a significant issue with her.
Quote: You think it's just the romantic area, it may be that, but it could be more than that. You can't romance someone who doesn't want to be romanced by you, however, so unless that's not the case, save romance for when it's wanted.
But opportunities to be validative, listen and empathize, that occurs with every contact you have. Practice also on others around you, all others. These are not skills honed on just one person, to be used on one person only. A master artist doesn't paint only one painting, saving all his efforts for that. No, instead, he paints all the time, and therefore brings his skills up and is ready for the moments that present themselves.
Thanks. I am so focused on my R and W that I didn't even think of trying these things out on others. Great idea! Also, as for the romance, yea, I already figured out that it will have to wait.
Quote: If she resents you having a life, that's her problem. You do have your own life, and it's healthy too. No, I'd think her problem is that she's personalizing that aspect of you, and in her attitude, maybe fighting it. Good. Don't give it up, it's your life not hers. Instead, she'll have to eventually stop fighting against it, and if she doesn't, that tells you something, doesn't it?
Well, it has always told me that she was upset that SHE did not have a life but I always encouraged her to. I suppose if I am honest with you, I have realized that my words to her were "go out and have a great time with your friends" but my actions said "ok, now you've had your fun, it's time to make sure you meet my needs now." I would always get upset if she was late, or didn't act particularly affectionate towards me when she came home. I guess I was looking for her to validate ME and it always ended up making her feel bad/angry/stupid for going out in the first place. She was happy, then she came home to me stewing over things that did not even happen yet...
Thanks again for taking the time to post. I really need all the wisdom I can get right now.
Welp, I have my second ever therapy session today and I am really looking forward to it. I look at this as the most direct action I am taking to improve myself.
Also, I asked the W once more (since she has yet to say no) if I was going alone, or if she would join me. She said she would pass...and added "for now." The way she said it, the tone she used, was not her normal placating tone when she is just saying something to make me move on. I felt sincerity about the fact that she may decide to go soon.
Of course I am probably projecting what I want her to think but WTH, if all we went on were people's words, we'd be even more screwed up than we are now!
TMU
P.S. If you're wondering, and I do wonder about some of you, I am here so much during the day because I work on a computer and have unlimited access to the internet. We're slow right now so I have lots of free time to roam the boards. After I leave here, I try to GAL as much as possible so don't read/post nearly as much.
It hurts so much to feel like you're just sitting by letting a boat drift out into the ocean with a line sliding right by you and you just watch it go, never grabbing the line to stop it. Oh boy. That is an excellent way to describe how I feel about WAH. He floats further and further away, the tide carrying him out, and it feels like he’s headed for a deserted island, where he and o.w. will live happily eating coconuts.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
Quote: It hurts so much to feel like you're just sitting by letting a boat drift out into the ocean with a line sliding right by you and you just watch it go, never grabbing the line to stop it. Oh boy. That is an excellent way to describe how I feel about WAH. He floats further and further away, the tide carrying him out, and it feels like he’s headed for a deserted island, where he and o.w. will live happily eating coconuts.
Spanky would be more compared to a sinking ship....
Yea, but it's the part about not grabbing that damn rope and pulling until my hands bleed that gets me feeling like I'm not doing the right thing.
UPDATE: Well, these days me and the W have very little contact during the day while I am at work. That is unusual for us, even since the A was confessed to. I don't know what to make of it. Is she with him all day now? Anyway, I know I have to stop thinking about it. I really do but...er...there's that "but" again...ok I just need to stop. Other than that, not much to report. That will change since I have my therapy session in about an hour. I will report the happenings.
On another note, and to fill in a little more about my sitch/W, one of the things I think about is how my W would approach an end to her A. She is the kind of person who almost NEVER apologizes for anything. Instead she just makes sure she does something to let you know she's sorry. For instance, if we have an argument where she knows she said some uncalled for, or wrong things, she would never just come out and say "Hey look, I'm sorry for last night. Love you." She would instead just be extra nice to me in a way that I know is a result of her being sorry. What worries me is that what if she does end this but never gets around to verbalizing her apology, or worse yet, never feels sorry. Of course this is a kind of perverse optimism on my part. Oh well, I suppose any optimism at this point is good, eh?
TMU, You and I must be made from the same cloth. My heart and soul are so broken right now. My husband once again told me that he is no longer in love with me and is no longer attracted to me. He says for me not to change because I am a great person as well as a wonderful mom. He says he has been trying for years (unbeknown to me) and he just drifted away. He wants to stay living here because of our children (and because we are so indebt that he can't afford to leave). But his mind is made up, there is nothing to work on. I'm sitting here feeling sorry for myself with my credit card in my hand ready to call a DB coach (even though I can't afford it) when he calls to tell me he is on his way home and he will pick up the kids from school for me. I was very sweet and thankful - I have never met any of his friends that he goes out drinking with so I asked him if he would like to invite them over on Sunday to watch the Bears game and I would make appetizers and he says, no I just want to be with my family. I always hated amusement parks as the rides made me nausous, can I get off this roller coaster now? Patience Girl!!!
